Picard 1x10 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]

Stark · 05-04-2020 07:27PM

Dunno, is the percentage of gay posters on this very thread proportionate or just tokenism? :rolleyes:

pixelburp · 05-04-2020 07:41PM

Bobtheman wrote: »

Star trek was ahead of the curve. In the 1960s. Inclusive yes. But putting in gay characters is often tokenism now. It's over done in tv. Consider the percentage of the population that is LGBT and ask yourself proportionally Is tv proportionate ?
Even the original SULU actor thought it uncessary to have
the new SULU being gay.
Just an opinion.

So inclusivity was ok then, but not now? You think Nichelle Nichols wasn't token? Ha. She was literally the only named castmember who was black. Written as a mere totem of inclusivity. What you plead as ok was a far more cynical, surface decision and were homosexuality not illegal or taboo, there would have been a gay character. Guaranteed.

Stamets at least had a character and arc. That's not tokensim, that's just being another character in an ensemble. That he's gay is just a statistic of a character sheet. Uhura, Sulu were tokens.

What possible harm is this causing? A further strata of modern life is represented in a show famous for representation, and is a nice acknowledgement to the many who are gay, bisexual or whatever. It has no effect on the output so your problem is ... ... ... what? It's disproportionate? According to what statistics of demographics Vs fiction?

Sounds like you're arguing for quotas TBH

which is very tokenistic really

AllForIt · 05-04-2020 08:21PM

As a gay person I find it apt to have gay ppl in Star Trek. I mean, if you don't have a gay character in Star Trek of all series, but you have talking androids and all variants of aliens of many different varieties, it would just seem silly that there were no gay characters in Star Trek. It would be these days a glaring omission.

However, with Discovery and it's first gay characters, I just wish they didn't make a soap opera out of the gay relationship, that it was just a fact that a character was gay, that was made apparent though dialogue or however. Making a soap opera out of it just leaves the show being open to accusations of having an agenda, and frankly, I have some sympathy for that view, in the sense that I can see how someone might hold that view. I don't think it's true but I can see how some might think it is.

CramCycle · 05-04-2020 08:36PM

AllForIt wrote: »

As a gay person I find it apt to have gay ppl in Star Trek. I mean, if you don't have a gay character in Star Trek of all series, but you have talking androids and all variants of aliens of many different varieties, it would just seem silly that there were no gay characters in Star Trek. It would be these days a glaring omission.

The only thing annoying is the fans making a deal about it, it is centuries from now. The fact that it is a discussion point is weird as I can't imagine it is one in the future.

However, with Discovery and it's first gay characters, I just wish they didn't make a soap opera out of the gay relationship, that it was just a fact that a character was gay, that was made apparent though dialogue or however. Making a soap opera out of it just leaves the show being open to accusations of having an agenda, and frankly, I have some sympathy for that view, in the sense that I can see how someone might hold that view. I don't think it's true but I can see how some might think it is.

This is what annoyed me about the Sulu thing (the fans not the movie), no one made a deal about it in the movie, in fact, if you hadn't been told, it wasn't noticeable, a guy drops off his daughter. Could have been a friend, child minder whatever. The way the media went on about it I was expecting some soft core action, not a man letting go of a kids and and letting them run to their Dad. Same with Discovery, the relationship was introduced as a casual thing with no trumpeting. They brushed teeth together, it was normal and only noticed by those looking to make noise. It was normal because you could have replaced it with any relationship and it would have been basically the same. I have no sympathy for that point of view as in neither of these shows was it a grandstanding thing. The main issue was Stamets character changed so drastically personality wise that I thought it was the writers being lazy and tring to imply he came from the other universe.

It is no different to the people making a deal about Raffi, fair enough, there was no hint of it before but then again I got the impression that the Cap and Brainbox were off the cards because she could lie well enough to convince body reading synths and killed the person she loved, and no one seems slightly on edge about her. She's psychotic. The 7of9 thing was bad because we know from Voyager and Picard that she still feels alone and not part of the human race despite trying, not that it was Raffis hand but that it was anyones hand. Raffi is believable as she is desperate for someone to love her despite her issues which she can't control.

Bobtheman · 06-04-2020 10:45AM

Anyway I enjoyed the series. I'm still confused why Data wanted to die. He wasn't even a 100 was he ? I will watch season 2. Then again I would watch stewart as Picard painting a room. Die hard fan !

Stark · 06-04-2020 11:00AM

From the looks of it, he was stuck in that simulated environment with no-one for company.

ixoy · 06-04-2020 01:32PM

Evade wrote: »

It would obviously impact their story but overall it wouldn't make much difference.

Well sure going by the logic, I assume you don't want any straight characters to have relationships beyond friendship either? So when someone is in peril, they're just worried about the loss of their friend. Just remove romance across the board, right?

Evade · 06-04-2020 09:43PM

ixoy wrote: »

Well sure going by the logic, I assume you don't want any straight characters to have relationships beyond friendship either? So when someone is in peril, they're just worried about the loss of their friend. Just remove romance across the board, right?

Yeah, straights only, that's definitely what I want. It's not like in my post just before the one you quoted I wrote that more screen time for a gay relationship that couldn't easily be edited out so you can sell your series in China would be better. No, I would never write something like that.

Evade wrote: »

If they wanted LGBT inclusion in Picard why not change Rios and Jurati to Raffi and Jurati and show more of it instead of a last minute scene out of nowhere with characters that had never had any meaningful interaction. It's no guarantee it would be better written because the series isn't particularly well written but at least it couldn't be easily be edited out in regions where that isn't allowed like a similar scene in the most recent Star Wars. Even in STD Stamets and Culber could be edited to be friends rather than married without impacting much of the plot.

moonlighting_1 · 08-04-2020 02:18PM

Bicentennial Man Vs. Star Trek Picard Final Data Scene . Comparison Video

Bobtheman · 09-04-2020 09:47PM

I am annoyed at the way PICARD just tosses away the developments in the novels and comics . I read the odd novel and in some of these Picard has married and had a child with Beverly. In others Data is very much part of B-4.
Data is essentially reborn in B 4

Stark · 09-04-2020 09:57PM

None of the novels or comics are canon. Although the show did retain elements from the Picard countdown comics (Raffi, USS Verity and his Romulan companions) as well as the novel Picard: Last best hope.

Anyway, I'm defintely glad they abandoned the idea of Data in B4's body. I think that would have gone against the values Star Trek stood for.

Bobtheman · 10-04-2020 05:53AM

Stark wrote: »

None of the novels or comics are canon. Although the show did retain elements from the Picard countdown comics (Raffi, USS Verity and his Romulan companions) as well as the novel Picard: Last best hope.

Anyway, I'm defintely glad they abandoned the idea of Data in B4's body. I think that would have gone against the values Star Trek stood for.

Explain? About Data in b 4. How would that go against values? Look at resurrection of Spock.

CramCycle · 10-04-2020 06:25AM

I haven't read the books but from the movies/show was B4 not inferior technically to Data, he could never hope to achieve the same things or work at the same level, or so I not remember it right.

Slydice · 10-04-2020 05:29PM

Someone has done up the fleet into the previous shows style:

Stark · 10-04-2020 05:33PM

Holy **** that looks so much better

Evade · 10-04-2020 05:42PM

That looks great.

pixelburp · 10-04-2020 06:28PM

Looks more in keeping. Though it wasn't the look that annoyed me, but the sheer numbers. 100s of ships, purely for empty spectacle and narrative hyperbole.

Wonder if this is all down to the rights issue between CBS and Paramount? That was resolved though, right? Maybe they weren't able to use existing designs, bar the brief cameo agreed as a nod.

FGR · 10-04-2020 10:54PM

Stark wrote: »

Holy **** that looks so much better

Absolutely! Those ships still look the absolute business - and they can still justify them given their intended lifespan!

I have no doubt the creator of this fix had a much lower budget than the show's producers too; and still presented superior visuals!

Brian? · 11-04-2020 07:17AM

FGR wrote: »

Absolutely! Those ships still look the absolute business - and they can still justify them given their intended lifespan!

I have no doubt the creator of this fix had a much lower budget than the show's producers too; and still presented superior visuals!

Isn’t it mostly from DS9? The last nigh battle before heading to Cardassia.

With Runabouts for some reason.

Evade · 11-04-2020 09:43AM

It's a new shot. DS9 didn't have Sovereign or Intrepid class ships in the battle scenes and there's not nearly enough Miranda class ships.

11-04-2020 10:12AM

I’d this is in the future from the old series then why would the ship design have stagnated?

Evade · 11-04-2020 10:24AM

Because ships last a long time. It's less plausible that a fleet as large as Riker put together only consists of ships that are less than 20-25 years old. The Miranda class was in service for at least 110 years and the Excelsior class was in service for at least 90.

CramCycle · 11-04-2020 12:22PM

Pretty much, I'd expect federation ships to be slowly relegated to safer missions as time goes on but bar destruction in battle, most would last 100+ years and unless needed for parts or rapid conversion in an emergency, that would be the case. I would expect alot of ships to be new based on the run of bad luck the federation has had but I'd expect alot of old reliables to be in view. Also the style just didn't look great. The fan made one looked like it was done by a production company and the produciton company one looks like it was done by a fan.

11-04-2020 12:56PM

Evade wrote: »

Because ships last a long time. It's less plausible that a fleet as large as Riker put together only consists of ships that are less than 20-25 years old. The Miranda class was in service for at least 110 years and the Excelsior class was in service for at least 90.

Fair enough. I wouldn’t know a pile on the history of the ships.

troyzer · 11-04-2020 01:00PM

I haven't been posting here throughout Picard.

But it really was true and utter ****e.

I don't think Star Trek will ever be Star Trek again.

TheValeyard · 11-04-2020 06:15PM

Evade wrote: »

Because ships last a long time. It's less plausible that a fleet as large as Riker put together only consists of ships that are less than 20-25 years old. The Miranda class was in service for at least 110 years and the Excelsior class was in service for at least 90.

I didn't mind the extended life span of the Miranda and Excelsior class since they were such good looking ships.

Rawr · 11-04-2020 09:25PM

TheValeyard wrote: »

I didn't mind the extended life span of the Miranda and Excelsior class since they were such good looking ships.

The Miranda was a personal favourite. It was also very eye-opening to a much younger me seeing it for the first time.

At the time I thought: "Wait!....You mean...you can have a Star Trek ship without the middle bit?!"

Followed by my later shock to see a nacelle being blown right off the Reliant. I'd never seen that kind of permanent damage to a Trek ship before. I loved Reliant that the whole damn class. (And the Nebula class was just a f-ugly pretender to the throne

)

pixelburp · 11-04-2020 10:09PM

I didn't know what the Nebula class was so googled it.

Ewww.

Picard is getting stung for its copy paste design but that Nebula is atrocious looking. Very lazily thrown together, like they just took the Enterprise and sat on it.

Do love the Miranda class, has more heft and presence than other ships. Feels more like something folks would use. The Enterprise et al showy, slightly ostentatious designs in comparison.

AllForIt · 12-04-2020 01:38AM

All of this talk of ship design and visuals is not something I'm into. Well, to a degree I am, I never liked the TNG ship, it always looked like a flying hotel to me. Preferred the look of the Voyager ship.

Having said that I decided to watch the second Trilogy of Star Wars this week due to isolation. Starting with The Phantom Menace, who everyone agree's is pretty shy*e, but the visuals on it are astounding, even for it's time. That movie was made by computers in an office like no other.

12-04-2020 07:33AM

That Excelsior posted above was the one I always hated the look of. Didn’t know the name.

Picard 1x10 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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Picard 1x10 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]