Picard 1x10 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]

CramCycle · 03-04-2020 11:29PM

2 friends interlocked hands, maybe it was romance, maybe it wasn't. How is this a talking point. Christ on a bike, I found the Captain and Smart person kissing more jarring considering her behaviour.

NuMarvel · 04-04-2020 07:03AM

Bobtheman wrote: »

Have whatever sexuality you like just don't drone on and on or tweet about it. That's the modern way.

Did you get this worked up when Rios and Jurati got together. Or that when we first saw Dahj, she was with her boyfriend? Or all those times Soji and Narek were in bed? Or when we saw Troi and Riker?

And that's just in these last 10 episodes. Let's not even start on the other Star Trek series.

Star Trek has never shied away from showing sexuality. What's different these days is that it's not just heterosexuality. And for a show that's about showing a positive future for humanity, where we have left behind old prejudices, that's a good thing.

NuMarvel · 04-04-2020 07:10AM

CramCycle wrote: »

2 friends interlocked hands, maybe it was romance, maybe it wasn't. How is this a talking point. Christ on a bike, I found the Captain and Smart person kissing more jarring considering her behaviour.

It's a talking point for most because it's ether poor writing if it was meant to be romantic, or poor acting/direction if it was meant to be platonic. I think most people would be making the same comments if it had been Soji and Elnor.

It's a talking point for a few others for different reasons, who probably wouldn't be making the same comments if it had been Soji and Elnor

04-04-2020 08:27AM

nearly wish they'd left all the romance out instead of making a mess of it. captain "i dont mind if you killed someone and it definitely doesnt trigger any ptsd from my own captain doing it" and jurati, and two people randomly holding hands. if they were at least on the bridge and starting to give each other eyes or something that would be more of a foundation and we could have more fun speculating

Brian? · 04-04-2020 11:12AM

CramCycle wrote: »

2 friends interlocked hands, maybe it was romance, maybe it wasn't. How is this a talking point. Christ on a bike, I found the Captain and Smart person kissing more jarring considering her behaviour.

I only brought it up as an example of very poor story telling. I regret ever mentioning it.

At least the captain and yer wan had previous. But no one seems bothered any more that she killed someone.

Evade · 04-04-2020 01:36PM

CramCycle wrote: »

2 friends interlocked hands, maybe it was romance, maybe it wasn't. How is this a talking point. Christ on a bike, I found the Captain and Smart person kissing more jarring considering her behaviour.

Even that's pushing it. They'd said maybe two sentences to each other up to that point. If there was suppose to be a short time skip before that scene some indication of it would have been nice. Adding "after a few weeks of deliberation" before Soji said the synth ban was lifted would have been more than enough.

CramCycle · 04-04-2020 01:40PM

Brian? wrote: »

I only brought it up as an example of very poor story telling. I regret ever mentioning it.

At least the captain and yer wan had previous. But no one seems bothered any more that she killed someone.

They forgave that really quick, even the fact that she apparently loved the guy seems not to have made anyone flinch. If I was the cap I'd be playing the let's just be friends angle

Stark · 04-04-2020 02:34PM

There was copious amounts of alcohol consumed just before the interlocking hands scene. Nuff said. They just happened to be the two people on the ship with the most fondness for it. Star Trek pushing alcosexuality in our faces.

Bobtheman · 04-04-2020 02:46PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

Did you get this worked up when Rios and Jurati got together. Or that when we first saw Dahj, she was with her boyfriend? Or all those times Soji and Narek were in bed? Or when we saw Troi and Riker?

And that's just in these last 10 episodes. Let's not even start on the other Star Trek series.

Star Trek has never shied away from showing sexuality. What's different these days is that it's not just heterosexuality. And for a show that's about showing a positive future for humanity, where we have left behind old prejudices, that's a good thing.

Look I'm not getting drawn into a debate about sexuality.
It's one thing trek being ahead of the curve it's another thing virtue signaling. Tbh I think a lot of the new forms of sexuality are pure fiction but that's only a personal opinion. Indulgence. But I could be Wrong

Remember what's acceptable now does not make it right. 40 years ago harassing single mothers was all the rage. Gay reversal therapy legal in all US states. Etc. Nobody can say that for instance allowing kids operations below the age of 18 is correct to transform etc. So let's just park our self righteousness. I'm always more interested in miniority views. Back in the 1980s I waded into a few fights for gay friends while the solid majority condemned me.
And no I have no issue with Riker bed hopping or any adults doing what they want in private just stop telling the world about it or virtue signalling. I get enough of it in school where we got circulars about non gender uniforms while we waited for decent IT and psychologists for suicidal kids

NuMarvel · 04-04-2020 06:10PM

Bobtheman wrote: »

Look I'm not getting drawn into a debate about sexuality.
It's one thing trek being ahead of the curve it's another thing virtue signaling. Tbh I think a lot of the new forms of sexuality are pure fiction but that's only a personal opinion. Indulgence. But I could be Wrong

Remember what's acceptable now does not make it right. 40 years ago harassing single mothers was all the rage. Gay reversal therapy legal in all US states. Etc. Nobody can say that for instance allowing kids operations below the age of 18 is correct to transform etc. So let's just park our self righteousness. I'm always more interested in miniority views. Back in the 1980s I waded into a few fights for gay friends while the solid majority condemned me.
And no I have no issue with Riker bed hopping or any adults doing what they want in private just stop telling the world about it or virtue signalling. I get enough of it in school where we got circulars about non gender uniforms while we waited for decent IT and psychologists for suicidal kids

A lengthy reply about sexuality from someone who doesn't want to get into a debate about it... :rolleyes:

BTW, if you have issues with "virtue signalling", you really haven't watched a lot of Star Trek. Next time you see the original 60s series, have a think about why exactly there are black, Asian, and Russian characters on the bridge.

Bobtheman · 04-04-2020 11:11PM

There are real issues and there are virtue signalers

TheValeyard · 05-04-2020 08:25AM

pah wrote: »

No.

There is good writing and there is bad writing.

Yeah, writing can make a huge difference. Just look at Game of Thrones when they ran out of source material!

Brian? · 05-04-2020 08:52AM

Bobtheman wrote: »

There are real issues and there are virtue signalers

Virtue signalling is a insult, made up to through at people with a socially progressive mindset. Having LGBT+ people in a TV show isn't virtue signalling, it's inclusiveness.

CramCycle · 05-04-2020 09:09AM

Brian? wrote: »

Virtue signalling is a insult, made up to through at people with a socially progressive mindset. Having LGBT+ people in a TV show isn't virtue signalling, it's inclusiveness.

Its not even inclusiveness, it is just normal (or it should be). The world has people who have a wide variety of preferences, alien worlds are likely to also have other preferences. Putting a name on it or not is irrelevant if we were a better society, alas we are not. For all the giving out here, I found the Captain and the murderer far worse writing, she lied so well she tricked an android who would be able to read all verbal and non verbal cues. TNG used to be hard to track who was going out with who IIRC, but you accepted that in a society where you are only get brief snippets, stuff goes on in the background. The fact that people need a signpost to say that a few weeks have probably passed is more an issue for the viewers intelligence than the writers. I was more upset earlier in the show where they had to cake walk us through Datas daughter storyline.

The bigger issues with the episode, and it was actually a good watch were:

1. The big bad looked like tenticles coming out a wormhole that easily fell apart once the machine was turned off. Surely there could have been more or less here. I would have preferred if they had shown nothing of them as the story would have essentially been the same. The other alternative would have had them come through and see the Federation defending them and say, well maybe they aren't that bad. This would fit in more with the tone of a typical TNG story.

2. The Data in the virtual world was beautifully told but it is still not Data. I feel sorry for him, he is a clone, not the original basically a fake, that alone could have had some wonderful story about mental issues associated with being someone you not. Instead he just accepts he is Data with no query.

3. As above, Picard is dead, no matter how you phrase it, the Golem is a clone and cheapens his death in my eyed.

Brian? · 05-04-2020 10:12AM

CramCycle wrote: »

Its not even inclusiveness, it is just normal (or it should be). The world has people who have a wide variety of preferences, alien worlds are likely to also have other preferences. Putting a name on it or not is irrelevant if we were a better society, alas we are not. For all the giving out here, I found the Captain and the murderer far worse writing, she lied so well she tricked an android who would be able to read all verbal and non verbal cues. TNG used to be hard to track who was going out with who IIRC, but you accepted that in a society where you are only get brief snippets, stuff goes on in the background. The fact that people need a signpost to say that a few weeks have probably passed is more an issue for the viewers intelligence than the writers. I was more upset earlier in the show where they had to cake walk us through Datas daughter storyline.

The bigger issues with the episode, and it was actually a good watch were:

1. The big bad looked like tenticles coming out a wormhole that easily fell apart once the machine was turned off. Surely there could have been more or less here. I would have preferred if they had shown nothing of them as the story would have essentially been the same. The other alternative would have had them come through and see the Federation defending them and say, well maybe they aren't that bad. This would fit in more with the tone of a typical TNG story.

2. The Data in the virtual world was beautifully told but it is still not Data. I feel sorry for him, he is a clone, not the original basically a fake, that alone could have had some wonderful story about mental issues associated with being someone you not. Instead he just accepts he is Data with no query.

3. As above, Picard is dead, no matter how you phrase it, the Golem is a clone and cheapens his death in my eyed.

Agree with most of that. Except for the data bit, he was a walking computer, as much as we liked to antropomorphise him. The data copy was as much Data as the original, if he had the same memories.

The space tentacles were stupid. Really, really stupid. But I just brushed them off because it was the last in long line of stupid.

CramCycle · 05-04-2020 11:04AM

Brian? wrote: »

Agree with most of that. Except for the data bit, he was a walking computer, as much as we liked to antropomorphise him. The data copy was as much Data as the original, if he had the same memories.

The space tentacles were stupid. Really, really stupid. But I just brushed them off because it was the last in long line of stupid.

I suppose it then begs the question, what makes a person. We are all just electrical current and storage reacting based on experience and programming. Picard is now no different than Data. A bit fancier and more polished but he is still now just an android. Data had his emotion chip, sacrificed himself, you could argue that his choices were no different than Spocks locgical choices. I must rewatch Nemesis, my memories of it are vague. Was Datas emotion chip no fancier than a bot on twitter tryign to guess the correct reaction. Is that not what are emotions are, we have a certain amount of preprogramming with life experience acting as minor updates.

I think this is the more fascinating questions to be raised from the episode. Lets say the federation did not lift the synth ban after the fact. Would they decommision Picard, he isn't technically human.

Evade · 05-04-2020 11:06AM

Brian? wrote: »

Virtue signalling is a insult, made up to through at people with a socially progressive mindset. Having LGBT+ people in a TV show isn't virtue signalling, it's inclusiveness.

That's not what virtue signal means. It's taking a safe action in support of something and expecting praise for it.

The Megaphone · 05-04-2020 11:35AM

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

Solid 8.5 for the series

7 and raffi makes sense... considering there was something going on between Janeway and 7

Explains why she wouldn’t let her wear a more comfortable starfleet uniform when she had no problem kitting out the maquis!

Brian? · 05-04-2020 12:20PM

Evade wrote: »

That's not what virtue signal means. It's taking a safe action in support of something and expecting praise for it.

I didn't define virtue signalling in my post, so how can you disagree with me?

I stand by what I said. Virtue signalling is an insult often thrown at progressive people for vocally supporting a cause. Some people support causes cynically in the expectation of praise, but the accusations of virtue signalling aren't saved for them.

Brian? · 05-04-2020 12:22PM

CramCycle wrote: »

I suppose it then begs the question, what makes a person. We are all just electrical current and storage reacting based on experience and programming. Picard is now no different than Data. A bit fancier and more polished but he is still now just an android. Data had his emotion chip, sacrificed himself, you could argue that his choices were no different than Spocks locgical choices. I must rewatch Nemesis, my memories of it are vague. Was Datas emotion chip no fancier than a bot on twitter tryign to guess the correct reaction. Is that not what are emotions are, we have a certain amount of preprogramming with life experience acting as minor updates.

I think this is the more fascinating questions to be raised from the episode. Lets say the federation did not lift the synth ban after the fact. Would they decommision Picard, he isn't technically human.

I wish the writers had the intelligence and ability to play that out in the next series. Is Jean Luv Picard now illegal? I doubt they will though, it'll be more swashbuckling.

Bobtheman · 05-04-2020 12:22PM

Brian? wrote: »

Virtue signalling is a insult, made up to through at people with a socially progressive mindset. Having LGBT+ people in a TV show isn't virtue signalling, it's inclusiveness.

You know best

Evade · 05-04-2020 12:29PM

Brian? wrote: »

I didn't define virtue signalling in my post, so how can you disagree with me?

This sounded like a definition to me.

Brian? wrote: »

Virtue signalling is a insult, made up to through at people with a socially progressive mindset

pixelburp · 05-04-2020 12:47PM

What's the opposite of "virtue signalling" then? That first world problem of those who cry and whinge at the merest suggestion of a variance to the norm? Or the specific irony in the tedious complaints of inclusion In a show historically famous for inclusion? Trek is one big virtue signal then, given its big claim to fame was how inclusive it was through Nichelle Nichols et al. Again I suppose, easy to discount with 50 years in the rearview

Presumably Discovery has caused outright apoplexy by having a gay man in its cast, whose plot has nothing to do with their sexuality. Though I've seen some try to claim that plot is "fridging", but that's another level of inanity.

That scene with Seven was garbage writing, but reading offence into held hands is particularly brittle triggering.

Brian? · 05-04-2020 12:49PM

Evade wrote: »

This sounded like a definition to me.

More of an opinion.

Evade · 05-04-2020 01:16PM

pixelburp wrote: »

What's the opposite of "virtue signalling" then? That first world problem of those who cry and whinge at the merest suggestion of a variance to the norm? Or the specific irony in the tedious complaints of inclusion In a show historically famous for inclusion? Trek is one big virtue signal then, given its big claim to fame was how inclusive it was through Nichelle Nichols et al. Again I suppose, easy to discount with 50 years in the rearview

Presumably Discovery has caused outright apoplexy by having a gay man in its cast, whose plot has nothing to do with their sexuality. Though I've seen some try to claim that plot is "fridging", but that's another level of inanity.

That scene with Seven was garbage writing, but reading offence into held hands is particularly brittle triggering.

The opposite of virtue signalling would be doing what's right despite the risk, a bit like the casting in the 60s.

If they wanted LGBT inclusion in Picard why not change Rios and Jurati to Raffi and Jurati and show more of it instead of a last minute scene out of nowhere with characters that had never had any meaningful interaction. It's no guarantee it would be better written because the series isn't particularly well written but at least it couldn't be easily be edited out in regions where that isn't allowed like a similar scene in the most recent Star Wars. Even in STD Stamets and Culber could be edited to be friends rather than married without impacting much of the plot.

pixelburp · 05-04-2020 02:05PM

Evade wrote: »

.... Even in STD Stamets and Culber could be edited to be friends rather than married without impacting much of the plot.

Not really, given Stamets and Culbers entire arc in season 2 was centred around a love lost, then tentatively restored. Any romantic pairing could be rewritten as platonic friends sure, but would completely lose the entire emotional core of the story within the plot.

Evade · 05-04-2020 02:13PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Not really, given Stamets and Culbers entire arc in season 2 was centred around a love lost, then tentatively restored. Any romantic pairing could be rewritten as platonic friends sure, but would completely lose the entire emotional core of the story within the plot.

It would obviously impact their story but overall it wouldn't make much difference.

pixelburp · 05-04-2020 02:19PM

Evade wrote: »

It would obviously impact their story but overall it wouldn't make much difference.

Unless the story is the romance, is the relationship, is the second chance given to both men. Of course that's impacted, the difference is the change. You can't change the nature of a relationship without knock on effects in the story. That's literally human nature and writing 101.

TheValeyard · 05-04-2020 04:27PM

Stamets and Culbers, sigh.

It just doesn't work as a match.

Stamets is a very interesting likable grump.

Culber has the personality of a damp cloth.

Bobtheman · 05-04-2020 06:45PM

Star trek was ahead of the curve. In the 1960s. Inclusive yes. But putting in gay characters is often tokenism now. It's over done in tv. Consider the percentage of the population that is LGBT and ask yourself proportionally Is tv proportionate ?
Even the original SULU actor thought it uncessary to have
the new SULU being gay.
Just an opinion.

Picard 1x10 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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Picard 1x10 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]