Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

end of the road · 22-03-2020 11:47PM

aloyisious wrote: »

Well, that they have a disagreement with abortion is a cert. As for quibbling about whether they are split on the legal provision of abortion within Irish healthcare as it stands, it's not worth the effort. They are simply faced with that fact and some refuse to accept it and the referendum result, while those others who do accept it do so because they don't want to step outside the bounds of the law. Do you actually think anyone thinks the anti-abortion protestors have an ulterior secret motive beyond their stated opposition to abortion or is that just speculation on your part?

well a couple of posters have expressed a view that the intent of the individuals is to specifically impeed access to the service, rather then specifically protesting against abortion.

uptherebels · 23-03-2020 08:37AM

end of the road wrote: »

well a couple of posters have expressed a view that the intent of the individuals is to specifically impeed access to the service, rather then specifically protesting against abortion.

Which is evident by them concentrating on the places of access and not on the places of legislative change. As has been explained to you already.

aloyisious · 23-03-2020 10:49AM

end of the road wrote: »

well a couple of posters have expressed a view that the intent of the individuals is to specifically impeed access to the service, rather then specifically protesting against abortion.

I'll leave it to the people you say are of the opinion that the intent of the anti-abortion protestors is to impede access to the service [healthcare for women in respect of pregnancies] rather than impeding access to abortion facilities [healthcare for women in respect of pregnancies] to put their positions more clear for you if they choose.

ohnonotgmail · 23-03-2020 11:24AM

end of the road wrote: »

well a couple of posters have expressed a view that the intent of the individuals is to specifically impeed access to the service, rather then specifically protesting against abortion.

they are using their fake posters to prey on the emotional state of women who require urgent healthcare. They care more for the fake babies on their posters than women who need healthcare. Your doubletalk on this is nonsense.

end of the road · 23-03-2020 03:11PM

uptherebels wrote: »

Which is evident by them concentrating on the places of access and not on the places of legislative change. As has been explained to you already.

it is evident in your view.
it is not evident in my view.
i don't believe that simply protesting at another building rather then another building is enough to make something evident.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they are using their fake posters to prey on the emotional state of women who require urgent healthcare. They care more for the fake babies on their posters than women who need healthcare. Your doubletalk on this is nonsense.

in your opinion.
ultimately, unless they specifically tell us that they don't care about the women involved and only the babies, then i am going to take it that they do care about both, as i haven't saw anything myself to show otherwise.
if you believe the images are fake, i expect you can make a complaint to the relevant agency. i presume we have an advertising standards type agency here in ireland, but they may be called something different or not, i do not know.

ohnonotgmail · 23-03-2020 03:19PM

end of the road wrote: »

in your opinion.
ultimately, unless they specifically tell us that they don't care about the women involved and only the babies, then i am going to take it that they do care about both, as i haven't saw anything myself to show otherwise.

Well of course you do. You support what they are doing.

end of the road wrote: »

if you believe the images are fake, i expect you can make a complaint to the relevant agency. i presume we have an advertising standards type agency here in ireland, but they may be called something different or not, i do not know.

you expect wrong. I can walk the streets with placards carrying whatever lies i want and there is nothing that anybody can do about it.

end of the road · 23-03-2020 03:28PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Well of course you do. You support what they are doing.

you expect wrong. I can walk the streets with placards carrying whatever lies i want and there is nothing that anybody can do about it.

i support their right to be able to do it rather then them actually doing it.

ohnonotgmail · 23-03-2020 03:30PM

end of the road wrote: »

i support their right to be able to do it rather then them actually doing it.

Given that what they are doing is harassing women in crisis it is no surprise that you support their right to do it.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-03-2020 03:55PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they are using their fake posters to prey on the emotional state of women who require urgent healthcare. They care more for the fake babies on their posters than women who need healthcare. Your doubletalk on this is nonsense.

Adding additional trauma to those dealing with miscarriage, stillbirth, foetal defects, and infertility, among the many other reasons people attend maternity hospitals in less than happy circumstances, is just fine according to some, who are only concerned about the "free speech" of these protesters and not any kind of human decency....

end of the road · 23-03-2020 03:56PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Given that what they are doing is harassing women in crisis it is no surprise that you support their right to do it.

and yet, if it is harassment, we would have heard of multiple arrests at the couple of protests that have happened, as harassment is already a crime to the best of my knowledge.
to the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any, which would suggest to me that they are avoiding doing anything that could be reasonably considered harassment or that is actually already, or even could ever be considered as such.
if by all means you are aware of harassment taking place, then you should report it to the gardai, who i expect will have an obligation to investigate it, as harassment is very serious. that goes for anybody who witnesses such taking place.

ohnonotgmail · 23-03-2020 04:15PM

end of the road wrote: »

and yet, if it is harassment, we would have heard of multiple arrests at the couple of protests that have happened, as harassment is already a crime to the best of my knowledge.
to the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any, which would suggest to me that they are avoiding doing anything that could be reasonably considered harassment or that is actually already, or even could ever be considered as such.
if by all means you are aware of harassment taking place, then you should report it to the gardai, who i expect will have an obligation to investigate it, as harassment is very serious. that goes for anybody who witnesses such taking place.

legal harassment requires multiple instances so the gardai can do nothing. How many woman will go back for a repeat visit after seeing the lies they print on their placards? perhaps legally harassment is not the correct word to use but what they are doing is despicable and directly targeted at women in crisis. But you dont care about that. You only care about babies that dont exist.

smacl · 23-03-2020 07:50PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

legal harassment requires multiple instances so the gardai can do nothing. How many woman will go back for a repeat visit after seeing the lies they print on their placards? perhaps legally harassment is not the correct word to use but what they are doing is despicable and directly targeted at women in crisis. But you dont care about that. You only care about babies that dont exist.

I'm genuinely sceptical about how many of these protesters actually give a damn about babies as opposed to trying to bully an ultra-conservative anti-egalitarian ethos onto our societies which would treat women as second class citizens. People with a genuine concern for babies would be spending their time in so many other ways as we live on a planet with wars and famine where many babies die needlessly all the time. I don't for a moment believe that those pushing an anti-abortion agenda honestly care about the welfare of babies. They care about those who would undermine their right to arbitrarily tell others what they can and cannot do.

Just my opinion, but the majority of the people of Ireland have drawn a similar conclusion and seek first and foremost to look after the best interests of vulnerable women without judging them.

ohnonotgmail · 23-03-2020 08:12PM

smacl wrote: »

I'm genuinely sceptical about how many of these protesters actually give a damn about babies as opposed to trying to bully an ultra-conservative anti-egalitarian ethos onto our societies which would treat women as second class citizens. People with a genuine concern for babies would be spending their time in so many other ways as we live on a planet with wars and famine where many babies die needlessly all the time. I don't for a moment believe that those pushing an anti-abortion agenda honestly care about the welfare of babies. They care about those who would undermine their right to arbitrarily tell others what they can and cannot do.

Just my opinion, but the majority of the people of Ireland have drawn a similar conclusion and seek first and foremost to look after the best interests of vulnerable women without judging them.

absolutely correct.

end of the road · 23-03-2020 08:12PM

smacl wrote: »

I'm genuinely sceptical about how many of these protesters actually give a damn about babies as opposed to trying to bully an ultra-conservative anti-egalitarian ethos onto our societies which would treat women as second class citizens. People with a genuine concern for babies would be spending their time in so many other ways as we live on a planet with wars and famine where many babies die needlessly all the time. I don't for a moment believe that those pushing an anti-abortion agenda honestly care about the welfare of babies. They care about those who would undermine their right to arbitrarily tell others what they can and cannot do.

Just my opinion, but the majority of the people of Ireland have drawn a similar conclusion and seek first and foremost to look after the best interests of vulnerable women without judging them.

people with a genuine concern for babies either unborn or born, can do many possible things from the very little to the very big, there is no one size all fits approach, just like many issues, simply caring about what happens to them is doing something.
lots of people care about many issues, but due to work and other constraints may not have time in which to specifically focus on all or any of the issues they may care about, however that doesn't mean they care less or even not at all, but rather they have their own lives and things they have to give their time to, with trying to do something about issues they care about, having to unfortunately come second or even remain out of their focus.
people who disagree with unrestricted abortion come in many shapes, sizes, and even view points in relation to many issues.
some will be conservative on some or all issues, some will be centrist to leftist such as myself, some indeed may believe women are and should be second class citizens however i would expect they are in a tiny minority, or at least i would hope so.

ohnonotgmail · 23-03-2020 08:15PM

end of the road wrote: »

people with a genuine concern for babies either unborn or born, can do many possible things from the very little to the very big, there is no one size all fits approach, just like many issues, simply caring about what happens to them is doing something.
lots of people care about many issues, but due to work and other constraints may not have time in which to specifically focus on all or any of the issues they may care about, however that doesn't mean they care less or even not at all, but rather they have their own lives and things they have to give their time to, with trying to do something about issues they care about, having to unfortunately come second or even remain out of their focus.
people who disagree with unrestricted abortion come in many shapes, sizes, and even view points in relation to many issues.
some will be conservative on some or all issues, some will be centrist to leftist such as myself, some indeed may believe women are and should be second class citizens however i would expect they are in a tiny minority, or at least i would hope so.

they seem to have plenty of time to stand outside healthcare facilities waving placards telling lies. if they really cared about children they could spend that time helping the children that already exist. but they don't.

end of the road · 23-03-2020 08:20PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they seem to have plenty of time to stand outside healthcare facilities waving placards telling lies. if they really cared about children they could spend that time helping the children that already exist. but they don't.

they could be on annual leave, they could work shift work, everyone's ability to find time to do something will be different i guess.
people will spend their time doing something about an issue they care about in a way they feel is the most productive i would imagine.

ohnonotgmail · 23-03-2020 08:51PM

end of the road wrote: »

they could be on annual leave, they could work shift work, everyone's ability to find time to do something will be different i guess.
people will spend their time doing something about an issue they care about in a way they feel is the most productive i would imagine.

thank you for helping me make my point

smacl · 23-03-2020 09:14PM

end of the road wrote: »

people with a genuine concern for babies either unborn or born, can do many possible things from the very little to the very big, there is no one size all fits approach, just like many issues, simply caring about what happens to them is doing something.

Thing is, I don't actually believe that many of those pushing a pro-life agenda do care about babies. I think they care solely about pushing their entirely unpleasant agenda.

end of the road · 23-03-2020 09:35PM

smacl wrote: »

Thing is, I don't actually believe that many of those pushing a pro-life agenda do care about babies. I think they care solely about pushing their entirely unpleasant agenda.

it is likely yes that there are a small number who are of that exact position, however unless they specifically admit to it, we are never going to truely know they are of that position, or even the numbers involved.
certainly a minority of people latching on to an issue to push an agenda is nothing new and is not unique to abortion.

ohnonotgmail · 23-03-2020 09:39PM

end of the road wrote: »

it is likely yes that there are a small number who are of that exact position, however unless they specifically admit to it, we are never going to truely know they are of that position, or even the numbers involved.
certainly a minority of people latching on to an issue to push an agenda is nothing new and is not unique to abortion.

what makes you think it is only a small number given the objection of the religious right to abortion?

eviltwin · 23-03-2020 09:48PM

end of the road wrote: »

it is likely yes that there are a small number who are of that exact position, however unless they specifically admit to it, we are never going to truely know they are of that position, or even the numbers involved.
certainly a minority of people latching on to an issue to push an agenda is nothing new and is not unique to abortion.

What's their objective then? Do you think they expect to change a woman's mind? Seems a bit of a risk trying to encourage a change of mind as she's walking into her appointment. And wouldn't they have a greater chance of success if the message was a bit kinder? Pictures of foetuses and "abortion is murder" placards don't exactly scream care and support.

end of the road · 23-03-2020 09:59PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what makes you think it is only a small number given the objection of the religious right to abortion?

we were talking about individuals jumping on a protest to push another agenda.
it was they who i was suggesting may be a minority, and that it isn't something unique to abortion.

eviltwin wrote: »

What's their objective then? Do you think they expect to change a woman's mind? Seems a bit of a risk trying to encourage a change of mind as she's walking into her appointment. And wouldn't they have a greater chance of success if the message was a bit kinder? Pictures of foetuses and "abortion is murder" placards don't exactly scream care and support.

i would expect they are trying to encourage one to seek an alternative to ending the life of their unborn yes.
ultimately i am not going to be in a position to know as to whether their messages and information will be effective or not, only they can know that i would expect.
i also couldn't say with any sort of certainty whether they would or wouldn't have any success by doing something different.

ohnonotgmail · 23-03-2020 10:03PM

end of the road wrote: »

we were talking about individuals jumping on a protest to push another agenda.
it was they who i was suggesting may be a minority, and that it isn't something unique to abortion.

protesting outside medical facilities does tend to be a uniquely anti-abortion thing.

robindch · 24-03-2020 12:11PM

end of the road wrote: »

people will spend their time doing something about an issue they care about in a way they feel is the most productive i would imagine.

They could also be doing it because, like praying, it's essentially a very simple activity - all you've to do is stand around the place without actually contributing anything useful to the common good.

end of the road · 24-03-2020 03:20PM

robindch wrote: »

They could also be doing it because, like praying, it's essentially a very simple activity - all you've to do is stand around the place without actually contributing anything useful to the common good.

some may be doing it for that reason, again i'm personally not going to know either way.
i would think that for those who do do it, praying doesn't have to specifically contribute anything to the common good, but rather give comfort to those who do it who get whatever they get from it, it's not something i do nor have interest in doing given i don't have a religious bone in my body, but i would speculate that giving comfort and a sense of purpose may be what prayers get from praying to their god or gods.

smacl · 24-03-2020 05:09PM

end of the road wrote: »

some may be doing it for that reason, again i'm personally not going to know either way.
i would think that for those who do do it, praying doesn't have to specifically contribute anything to the common good, but rather give comfort to those who do it who get whatever they get from it, it's not something i do nor have interest in doing given i don't have a religious bone in my body, but i would speculate that giving comfort and a sense of purpose may be what prayers get from praying to their god or gods.

What the above implies is that when someone says they're "praying for you" they're really just doing something for themselves. The problem comes where prayer is confused with taking positive action. It's a bit like homeopathy, harmless until you start using it as an alternative to necessary medical intervention.

end of the road · 24-03-2020 05:35PM

smacl wrote: »

What the above implies is that when someone says they're "praying for you" they're really just doing something for themselves. The problem comes where prayer is confused with taking positive action. It's a bit like homeopathy, harmless until you start using it as an alternative to necessary medical intervention.

yes, i would agree, certainly with your comparison to homeopathy.
i couldn't agree or disagree with the first part as i don't know if someone who says they will pray for me would actually be doing it for me or themselves unless they specifically tell me, i would just have to take their word for it unless i receive something to show otherwise.

AllForIt · 26-03-2020 10:06PM

smacl wrote: »

Thing is, I don't actually believe that many of those pushing a pro-life agenda do care about babies. I think they care solely about pushing their entirely unpleasant agenda.

Though this wouldn't be exclusive to this topic. For example the Left care about minorities, especially of late LGBT issues. Now, do they really care, or as I think, they're more motivated to going after a certain type of person who isn't in a minority.

smacl · 26-03-2020 11:01PM

AllForIt wrote: »

Though this wouldn't be exclusive to this topic. For example the Left care about minorities, especially of late LGBT issues. Now, do they really care, or as I think, they're more motivated to going after a certain type of person who isn't in a minority.

More about intolerance to all sorts of discrimination and bullying that have been endemic in our society for generations. I do care about these things having suffered them and not wanting my kids to suffer them.

AllForIt · 26-03-2020 11:18PM

smacl wrote: »

More about intolerance to all sorts of discrimination and bullying that have been endemic in our society for generations. I do care about these things having suffered them and not wanting my kids to suffer them.

So you admit then that some of the protesters do care about the unborn above any other personal religious/political objective.

edit: I was only making an analogy by the way.

Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

Comments