Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

Sam Russell · 12-03-2020 2:25pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

Trambus is not a 'cheap' solution, because it is not necessary to lay rails plus overhead cables can be avoided on city centre sections it is a far quicker and hugely less disruptive to local commerce instalation process.
The end product offers a travel experience the same as a tram on rails 'though, in particular, the electric version of the Trambus, because it runs on rubber tyres, is far quieter both internally and externally. I've used both.
A choice from the full range of fuels from fossil and renewable sources can selected as appropriate.

They were using something similar for Luton Airport to Luton train station. It was awful as it was slow and cumbersome, and was as bad as a bendy bus. For these to work well, they need to be on a straight run and use electric power to give the high acceleration that trams have.

Trolley buses use a twin overhead power line, but other than that are like a tram on rubber wheels. They are used in Geneva - not sure about other places that use them.

[I hate bendy buses.]

Idbatterim · 12-03-2020 2:48pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

They were using something similar for Luton Airport to Luton train station. It was awful as it was slow and cumbersome, and was as bad as a bendy bus. For these to work well, they need to be on a straight run and use electric power to give the high acceleration that trams have.

Trolley buses use a twin overhead power line, but other than that are like a tram on rubber wheels. They are used in Geneva - not sure about other places that use them.

[I hate bendy buses.]

agreed about bendy buses! also the straight line is so important, look at the crawl the green line comes to, around charlemont, SSG, Dawson Street...

Sam Russell · 12-03-2020 4:55pm

Was the 'tram on wheels' not the BRT proposal for Swords to Dublin CC that they binned in favour of Busconnects?

It appears very much like it to me.

niloc1951 · 12-03-2020 5:52pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

..............
Trolley buses use a twin overhead power line, but other than that are like a tram on rubber wheels. They are used in Geneva - not sure about other places that use them.

[I hate bendy buses.]

Trolly busses/Bendy busses and Trambusses are completely different vehicles.
Trolly busses/Bendy busses are regular busses which take electric power from overhard lines or are hybrid or diesel powered
Trambusses are trams which run on rubber wheels and do not need permanant tracks, see links in post #121. Trambusses can be powered in the same way as regular trams OR be self powered by battery or hybrid.

Sam Russell · 12-03-2020 6:03pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

Trolly busses/Bendy busses and Trambusses are completely different vehicles.
Trolly busses/Bendy busses are regular busses which take electric power from overhard lines or are hybrid or diesel powered
Trambusses are trams which run on rubber wheels and do not need permanant tracks, see links in post #121. Trambusses can be powered in the same way as regular trams OR be self powered by battery or hybrid.

I am not sure what you are saying.

Trolley bus is a bus that uses electric power from twin o/h wires. It is steered like a bus and travels on rubber wheels. The London ones were double decker, but the others used in other countries are generally single deck. They were phased out of London in the nineteen sixties, but still in use in some locations - such as Geneva.

A trambus is a single deck multi section bus, made to look like a tram with multiple doors. Surely that was what was proposed for the BRT. By powering it from O/H wires, it will be faster, and lighter because it will not require a diesel engine or a massive battery, but still accelerate like a regular tram.

Bendybuses are an abomination.

Idbatterim · 12-03-2020 6:10pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I am not sure what you are saying.

Trolley bus is a bus that uses electric power from twin o/h wires. It is steered like a bus and travels on rubber wheels. The London ones were double decker, but the others used in other countries are generally single deck. They were phased out of London in the nineteen sixties, but still in use in some locations - such as Geneva.

A trambus is a single deck multi section bus, made to look like a tram with multiple doors. Surely that was what was proposed for the BRT. By powering it from O/H wires, it will be faster, and lighter because it will not require a diesel engine or a massive battery, but still accelerate like a regular tram.

Bendybuses are an abomination.

I agree Sam, but you wonder with battery technology, given this wouldn be in operation for years, they will have way lighter or longer range batteries by the time this would be open. Read about a new GM battery, now weighing half of what the current Tesla one does, like for like, same KWH...

Sam Russell · 12-03-2020 6:37pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree Sam, but you wonder with battery technology, given this wouldn be in operation for years, they will have way lighter or longer range batteries by the time this would be open. Read about a new GM battery, now weighing half of what the current Tesla one does, like for like, same KWH...

My experience of batteries is that they do not last long. My car is six years old soon, and the car battery is already showing that it might not make the NCT anniversary. I also have a few DIY battery operated items that are in need of new batteries, even though I still look on them as 'new'.

Batteries have limited lives, and an O/H wired system is a more robust solution.

niloc1951 · 12-03-2020 7:14pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

...................
A trambus is a single deck multi section bus, made to look like a tram with multiple doors..................

Don't know what you mean by made 'to look like' a tram. The Trambus concept is a tram body but running on rubber wheels on a concrete/tarmac surface instead of steel wheels on railway tracks.
As for the power supply, this can be the same as a light rail tram if preferred.
#
As I've said, I've travelled on both and there is no difference in the experience.

Last Stop · 12-03-2020 11:59pm

I think I’d rather a Luas built in phases (e.g. Mahon to Kent station section) than a trolleybus.

While it may be similar in many ways to a Luas, the permanent nature of rails and the presence a Luas has is worth the investment. Could you imagine the amount of cars that would be parked in the way of a trolleybus because “ah sure it can go around” plus the lack of rails leads to reduced segregation.

While I know Cork Luas is not a short term plan, it would be encouraging to see the next government commit to it long term by reserving the route corridor and even building elements of it such as the bridge over the Lee.

Markcheese · 13-03-2020 10:51am

A bendy bus is just a tool ,it has limitations and strengths , as does a trolley car or a luas style tram ,
If you stick a bendy bus on an unaltered bus route ,with sharp turns and rough surface it'll be ****e ,but then that's not what its for ...
If you tried to snake a long luas style tram through city centre cork ,taking tight curves ect it also would be ****e ...

Sam Russell · 13-03-2020 12:21pm

Markcheese wrote: »

A bendy bus is just a tool ,it has limitations and strengths , as does a trolley car or a luas style tram ,
If you stick a bendy bus on an unaltered bus route ,with sharp turns and rough surface it'll be ****e ,but then that's not what its for ...
If you tried to snake a long luas style tram through city centre cork ,taking tight curves ect it also would be ****e ...

I looked at Geneva using google maps, and the trolley buses they use are electric powered bendy buses which is good, but bendy is bad. Electric power is good because the vehicles accelerate faster.

Any rapid bus service needs to be thought out so that it does not have sharp turns, and if bendy, then at least make sure they have at least four axles so they are not the bouncy type ones.

[I hate bendy buses].

niloc1951 · 13-03-2020 3:56pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I looked at Geneva using google maps, and the trolley buses they use are electric powered bendy buses which is good, but bendy is bad. Electric power is good because the vehicles accelerate faster.

Any rapid bus service needs to be thought out so that it does not have sharp turns, and if bendy, then at least make sure they have at least four axles so they are not the bouncy type ones.

[I hate bendy buses].

OK, lets address a few of the misconceptions

Trambusses can be powered by a hybrid onboard power system SEE HERE Trondheim in Norway, a city about the same size as Cork where a fleet of 58 operate.
Trambusses can also be powered electrically, with onboard batteries for un-electrified sections of the route if specified, and sharp turns are not an issue SEE HERE Linz in Austria, another city about the size of Cork.

A benifit of self powered and electric powered Trambusses is that unlike light rail Trams the route is not brought to a halt because of a breakdown or accident, self powered units can go around the obstruction and the length of the trolly pole on electric powered units also facilitates them to go around any obstruction along the route.

The question is, for a specific spend which mode will facilitate the greater number of passenger trips in any given period, give the greater number of routes and during installation cause the least damage to the local economy.

Sam Russell · 13-03-2020 4:33pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

OK, lets address a few of the misconceptions

Trambusses can be powered by a hybrid onboard power system SEE HERE Trondheim in Norway, a city about the same size as Cork where a fleet of 58 operate.
Trambusses can also be powered electrically, with onboard batteries for un-electrified sections of the route if specified, and sharp turns are not an issue SEE HERE Linz in Austria, another city about the size of Cork.

A benifit of self powered and electric powered Trambusses is that unlike light rail Trams the route is not brought to a halt because of a breakdown or accident, self powered units can go around the obstruction and the length of the trolly pole on electric powered units also facilitates them to go around any obstruction along the route.

The question is, for a specific spend which mode will facilitate the greater number of passenger trips in any given period, give the greater number of routes and during installation cause the least damage to the local economy.

I accept that the Trambus is as good as a Luas solution with the added benefit of route flexibility, and the fact that the huge cost of laying the lines is avoided.

Dedicated bus lanes would be required and heavy enforcemnt.

Overall, a better solution for Cork if bendy buses could be avoided.

Markcheese · 14-03-2020 12:42am

Sam Russell wrote: »

I accept that the Trambus is as good as a Luas solution with the added benefit of route flexibility, and the fact that the huge cost of laying the lines is avoided.

Dedicated bus lanes would be required and heavy enforcemnt.

Overall, a better solution for Cork if bendy buses could be avoided.

Is there a difference between a tram bus and a bendy bus ?

Neither will work well without proper dedicated in line stops/platforms, and a decent ticketing system that doesn't involve the driver , ( and the less tight turns the better ,) . And serious enforcement of idiots blocking the line ... ( Fixed cameras , cameras on the vehicles and dedicated tow trucks ),
And for feic sake don't give the gig to bus eireann ...

donvito99 · 14-03-2020 9:32am

The idea of a "trambus" seems to be purely an exercise in marketing and aesthetics.

A "bendy bus" can do all of the above (i.e. off board ticketing, all door entry/exit, dedicated right of way, overhead power if desired, etc).

Sam Russell · 14-03-2020 11:55am

Markcheese wrote: »

Is there a difference between a tram bus and a bendy bus ?

Neither will work well without proper dedicated in line stops/platforms, and a decent ticketing system that doesn't involve the driver , ( and the less tight turns the better ,) . And serious enforcement of idiots blocking the line ... ( Fixed cameras , cameras on the vehicles and dedicated tow trucks ),
And for feic sake don't give the gig to bus eireann ...

A bendy bus in my parlance is a bus with a passenger trailing part that has one axle. This allows the trailed bit to bounce around and be extremely unpleasant to be in. They are an abomination. Usually the trailed bit is half the size of the leading bit.

donvito99 wrote: »

The idea of a "trambus" seems to be purely an exercise in marketing and aesthetics.

A "bendy bus" can do all of the above (i.e. off board ticketing, all door entry/exit, dedicated right of way, overhead power if desired, etc).

The trambus is obviously designed to be a bus that looks like a tram.

To be a real trambus it would need a minimum of four axles, all steered to follow the leader, and be immune from the characteristic bounce of the bendy type.

Looking like a tram is pure marketing. A tram can carry upwards of two hundred passengers, while a bus struggles to carry over 70. A tram needs segregated running to achieve successful service, with long straight runs, and no sharp bends.

The trambus is a reincarnation of the BRT (Bus Rapid Transport) we spent a lot of money on but never got.

More vapourware.

niloc1951 · 14-03-2020 1:08pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

A bendy bus in my parlance is a bus with a passenger trailing part that has one axle. This allows the trailed bit to bounce around and be extremely unpleasant to be in. They are an abomination. Usually the trailed bit is half the size of the leading bit.

The trambus is obviously designed to be a bus that looks like a tram.

To be a real trambus it would need a minimum of four axles, all steered to follow the leader, and be immune from the characteristic bounce of the bendy type.

Looking like a tram is pure marketing. A tram can carry upwards of two hundred passengers, while a bus struggles to carry over 70. A tram needs segregated running to achieve successful service, with long straight runs, and no sharp bends.

The trambus is a reincarnation of the BRT (Bus Rapid Transport) we spent a lot of money on but never got.

More vapourware.

They say one picture is better than a thousand words

There are links to two videos on post #163 which more than adequatly cover all the issues above, plus THIS ONE which shows how a stop can be configured.

Regarding capacity the Exqui.City 24 will carry 137 passengers, 51 seated plus 86 standing. Total route capacity is a function of the number of units assigned to the route.
I've reavelled on many tram and trambus systems throughout Europe (and the LUAS in Dublin) where 90° turns and roundabouts are not a problem. In fact, tight turns on a trambus are a lot smoother than on a tram running on steel wheels and tracks.

The route itself is a design matter and can include decidated off road sections and road sharing when necessary, take the LUAS routes as an example

Sam Russell · 14-03-2020 2:34pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

They say one picture is better than a thousand words

There are links to two videos on post #163 which more than adequatly cover all the issues above, plus THIS ONE which shows how a stop can be configured.

That looks so like Cork, it is unbelievable - big wide multi-lane roads with plenty of space for cars, trucks, buses and trambuses - not.

There is a zero chance of implementing such a scheme in St Patrick's St. Cork is an old city with few chances of such a system - unless private cars are banned. We all know that that is unlikely.

BonnieSituation · 14-03-2020 2:53pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

That looks so like Cork, it is unbelievable - big wide multi-lane roads with plenty of space for cars, trucks, buses and trambuses - not.

There is a zero chance of implementing such a scheme in St Patrick's St. Cork is an old city with few chances of such a system - unless private cars are banned. We all know that that is unlikely.

I love how the picture of the trams outside the Courthouse on Washington St makes sure that there is two lanes for motor traffic. I know it's early days in this project, but it's maddening that they have seen fit to think that that level of car traffic is appropriate on the implementation of this scheme.

Sam Russell · 14-03-2020 4:08pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I love how the picture of the trams outside the Courthouse on Washington St makes sure that there is two lanes for motor traffic. I know it's early days in this project, but it's maddening that they have seen fit to think that that level of car traffic is appropriate on the implementation of this scheme.

They have removed the two existing cycle lanes to achieve that. I suppose that might be progress, but it would be better to remove at least one car lane and leave the two cycle lanes. Also, are there no buses?

BonnieSituation · 14-03-2020 4:20pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

They have removed the two existing cycle lanes to achieve that. I suppose that might be progress, but it would be better to remove at least one car lane and leave the two cycle lanes. Also, are there no buses?

It is way too early to figure this out, but knowing how Corkonians reacted to Patrick Street closing to cars...

loyatemu · 14-03-2020 5:58pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

They have removed the two existing cycle lanes to achieve that. I suppose that might be progress, but it would be better to remove at least one car lane and leave the two cycle lanes. Also, are there no buses?

they're only planning to have 4% cycling by 2040 - no need for cycle lanes.

donvito99 · 14-03-2020 6:20pm

loyatemu wrote: »

they're only planning to have 4% cycling by 2040 - no need for cycle lanes.

Traffic won't be an issue in future because electric cars /s

Sam Russell · 14-03-2020 7:34pm

loyatemu wrote: »

they're only planning to have 4% cycling by 2040 - no need for cycle lanes.

Those cycle lanes are there now. Why remove them to put an extra bus lane when there are already extensive one way streets in Cork, even within metres of that photo. That road should have two cycle lanes as now, and two bus lanes instead of the current one, and one or no car lanes, and no parking at all at all.

Cars should not be allowed in certain areas, just as in Grafton St in Dublin, which is heavily restricted.

Last Stop · 14-03-2020 7:52pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Those cycle lanes are there now. Why remove them to put an extra bus lane when there are already extensive one way streets in Cork, even within metres of that photo. That road should have two cycle lanes as now, and two bus lanes instead of the current one, and one or no car lanes, and no parking at all at all.

Cars should not be allowed in certain areas, just as in Grafton St in Dublin, which is heavily restricted.

It’s a photomontage based on a concept. A feasibility study hasn’t even been carried out yet never mind any form of design to determine what sort of lanes there will be

Sam Russell · 14-03-2020 8:53pm

Last Stop wrote: »

It’s a photomontage based on a concept. A feasibility study hasn’t even been carried out yet never mind any form of design to determine what sort of lanes there will be

A concept that reduces the current setup is a bad concept from the start. Pedestrians and cyclists, then public transport, then if there is any space - cars. After all that, then perhaps parking for disabled, then perhaps, loading and parking provision. Otherwise loading is done off-peak, and no parking.

Removing cycle lanes that are already there smacks of poor setting of parameters.

Last Stop · 14-03-2020 9:19pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

A concept that reduces the current setup is a bad concept from the start. Pedestrians and cyclists, then public transport, then if there is any space - cars. After all that, then perhaps parking for disabled, then perhaps, loading and parking provision. Otherwise loading is done off-peak, and no parking.

Removing cycle lanes that are already there smacks of poor setting of parameters.

Jesus it’s impossible to please some people. It was a photo to give people an idea of what a Luas would look like in Cork. That’s it. For all we know the route mightn’t even go down Washington St. Did you want them to photoshop in the Tour de France peleton in front of the tram?

FWIW, the report simply identifies the need for a tram in an East West direction between Mahon and Ballincollig. It makes a proposal for a route but caveats that by saying it is indicative and subject to its own design.

Markcheese · 14-03-2020 9:47pm

So of we shut down the city centre to traffic ,where are all the combine harvesters and tractors and diggers going to go ,once they make the south ring a motor way ?
(I'm getting my coat and running away )

niloc1951 · 15-03-2020 11:50am

Sam Russell wrote: »

That looks so like Cork, it is unbelievable - big wide multi-lane roads with plenty of space for cars, trucks, buses and trambuses - not.

There is a zero chance of implementing such a scheme in St Patrick's St. Cork is an old city with few chances of such a system - unless private cars are banned. We all know that that is unlikely.

The city of Nîmes which is far older than Cork dating back to Romam times has a Trambus system. And let's not forget that Cork had a traditional tram network until the 1930's until it was decided to rip it up instead of moderninsing it. The backbone of a lot of tram sustems in Europe date back to the early 20th. centuary and the even have pre WW11 stock still in use.

For anyone interested in learning about what a trambus offers compared to a tram on rails CLICK HERE

Bye for now

Sam Russell · 15-03-2020 3:55pm

Last Stop wrote: »

Jesus it’s impossible to please some people. It was a photo to give people an idea of what a Luas would look like in Cork. That’s it. For all we know the route mightn’t even go down Washington St. Did you want them to photoshop in the Tour de France peleton in front of the tram?

FWIW, the report simply identifies the need for a tram in an East West direction between Mahon and Ballincollig. It makes a proposal for a route but caveats that by saying it is indicative and subject to its own design.

If the intention was to create a impression of what the scheme will look like, they should have left the cycle lanes and removed one of the car lanes. The street has a finite width, and to omit the cycle lanes gives a false impression - which I would hope they did not intend.

Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

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