Why accountants ask me if I am OK with them filing my tax return?

pasquale83 · 10-03-2020 07:28PM #1

To be honest I don't get why they want my go ahead with filing my tax return.

I've hired an accountant because I am not able to complete it myself. I've provided all the info they requested and in my view they have to tell me if it is OK to file it. I don't have the knowledge to make that call...otherwise I wouldn't have hired them...

Can someone please explain what I am missing?

howardmarks · 10-03-2020 08:07PM

pasquale83 wrote: »

To be honest I don't get why they want my go ahead with filing my tax return.

I've hired an accountant because I am not able to complete it myself. I've provided all the info they requested and in my view they have to tell me if it is OK to file it. I don't have the knowledge to make that call...otherwise I wouldn't have hired them...

Can someone please explain what I am missing?

Completion is one job.
To file on your behalf requires your permission as they act as your agent for tax purposes only with your agreement.

han2000 · 10-03-2020 08:17PM

pasquale83 wrote: »

To be honest I don't get why they want my go ahead with filing my tax return.

I've hired an accountant because I am not able to complete it myself. I've provided all the info they requested and in my view they have to tell me if it is OK to file it. I don't have the knowledge to make that call...otherwise I wouldn't have hired them...

Can someone please explain what I am missing?

Does the phone call go along the lines of....'Hi Mr P, we have just finished preparing your tax return and there is a liability of €XXXX due, is it ok for us to go ahead and file this?'

Is it not more so informing you of the liability (or refund) that you would have had no idea of, because as you say, you don't have the knowledge to know beforehand.

Perhaps you had anticipated a liability of €1000 and it ended up being €2000, maybe you only have sufficient funds to cover the lower amount.

pasquale83 · 10-03-2020 10:14PM

howardmarks wrote: »

Completion is one job.
To file on your behalf requires your permission as they act as your agent for tax purposes only with your agreement.

I have already singed a letter of engagement and a tax agent form to hire the accountant and to let him act as my agent. What else should I confirm?

pasquale83 · 10-03-2020 10:17PM

han2000 wrote: »

Does the phone call go along the lines of....'Hi Mr P, we have just finished preparing your tax return and there is a liability of €XXXX due, is it ok for us to go ahead and file this?'

Is it not more so informing you of the liability (or refund) that you would have had no idea of, because as you say, you don't have the knowledge to know beforehand.

Perhaps you had anticipated a liability of €1000 and it ended up being €2000, maybe you only have sufficient funds to cover the lower amount.

Something similar.

I also had to help them complete my return as they forgot some expenses I had and added something that was not supposed to be included.

I should actually get a refund but I am going to pay them more than I get back from Revenue.

Actually, EUR 500,00 + VAT is a reasonable price? To me it seems a lot...

gingerhousewife · 10-03-2020 10:19PM

Because the tax return is ultimately your responsibility, so your advisors ask you to review it and confirm it is complete and correct prior to filling it. If there is anything returned incorrectly, or tax is calculated incorrectly, it is you who is answerable to Revenue, not your advisor.

pasquale83 · 10-03-2020 10:23PM

gingerhousewife wrote: »

Because the tax return is ultimately your responsibility, so your advisors ask you to review it and confirm it is complete and correct prior to filling it. If there is anything returned incorrectly, or tax is calculated incorrectly, it is you who is answerable to Revenue, not your advisor.

I completely understood that...but what is my adviser job then if I have to be the only one liable? As I said I have hired them because I don't know how to complete my tax return...

If I go to the hospital the doctor is liable if the patient is not treated correctly...they don't ask the patient if the medicines are correct for him/her...

gingerhousewife · 10-03-2020 10:28PM

pasquale83 wrote: »

I completely understood that...but what is my adviser job then if I have to be the only one liable? As I said I have hired them because I don't know how to complete my tax return...

If I go to the hospital the doctor is liable if the patient is not cured correctly...they don't ask the patient if the medicines are correct for him/her...

I'm sure if you read the engagement letter you signed, the responsibilities of the parties are specified in that. If you didn't agree with that maybe you shouldn't have signed it?

pasquale83 · 10-03-2020 10:30PM

gingerhousewife wrote: »

I'm sure if you read the engagement letter you signed, the responsibilities of the parties are specified in that. If you didn't agree with that maybe you shouldn't have signed it?

I needed an accountant and if you say so it means they all have similar letters of engagement where responsibilities of parties are shared in same way...so I don't see any alternative...

Maewyn Succat · 10-03-2020 10:33PM

pasquale83 wrote: »

I completely understood that...but what is my adviser job then if I have to be the only one liable? As I said I have hired them because I don't know how to complete my tax return...

If I go to the hospital the doctor is liable if the patient is not cured correctly...they don't ask the patient if the medicines are correct for him/her...

You are answering your own question there. It's a self assessment system so you must provide the details and approve the final return. You're just paying someone to do the paperwork for this to happen. You could tell the accountant to claim for anything you want no matter how ridiculous and he/she could advise you not to but once your signature is on it he is not liable for a fraudulent return.

The patient doctor scenario is not the same thing. The doctor is completely liable for any medication prescribed to the patient.

y0ssar1an22 · 10-03-2020 10:48PM

pasquale83 wrote: »

Something similar.

I also had to help them complete my return as they forgot some expenses I had and added something that was not supposed to be included.

I should actually get a refund but I am going to pay them more than I get back from Revenue.

Actually, EUR 500,00 + VAT is a reasonable price? To me it seems a lot...

Is that per return?

Depends if they are writing up your source records or not.
If you are giving then an Excel sheet with detail or the figures for vat on sales/purchases that price is very excessive. Once you have those 2 figures it takes about 60 seconds to file the return plus a few emails back and forth maybe. Maybe 15 mins work

pasquale83 · 10-03-2020 11:32PM

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

Is that per return?

Depends if they are writing up your source records or not.
If you are giving then an Excel sheet with detail or the figures for vat on sales/purchases that price is very excessive. Once you have those 2 figures it takes about 60 seconds to file the return plus a few emails back and forth maybe. Maybe 15 mins work

Yes, per return. I am paying 500+VAT for form 11 (rent income) including CGT calculation for a property I sold last year. Rent income is only for a couple of months as property has been sold indeed.

Is it really a lot? what should be a fair price?

pasquale83 · 10-03-2020 11:37PM

Maewyn Succat wrote: »

You are answering your own question there. It's a self assessment system so you must provide the details and approve the final return. You're just paying someone to do the paperwork for this to happen. You could tell the accountant to claim for anything you want no matter how ridiculous and he/she could advise you not to but once your signature is on it he is not liable for a fraudulent return.

The patient doctor scenario is not the same thing. The doctor is completely liable for any medication prescribed to the patient.

Again, I don't agree completely. Yes, I am providing details and they are doing paperwork, but in doing so they are using their professional knowledge that is what I am paying for.

They are called advisers indeed. As they advise me on how to complete the return and they complete it for me.

I would accept something like: "this is the IT return based on the details you provided and we advise you to submit it as it is. are you OK?"

Asking me if I they can proceed with submission is putting all liability on myself.

Pawwed Rig · 10-03-2020 11:42PM

pasquale83 wrote: »

Yes, per return. I am paying 500+VAT for form 11 (rent income) including CGT calculation for a property I sold last year. Rent income is only for a couple of months as property has been sold indeed.

Is it really a lot? what should be a fair price?

It is less than my firm costs and probably didn't even cost you that much as you presumably got a 52% deduction for it in your income tax return.

OP - you sign your IT rtn so should be familiar with what is in it. Your accountant will do the calcs etc but it shouldn't be difficult for you to make sure everything is there. Where your tax guy is valuable is spotting something you might have missed.

pasquale83 · 10-03-2020 11:59PM

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It is less than my firm costs and probably didn't even cost you that much as you presumably got a 52% deduction for it in your income tax return.

OP - you sign your IT rtn so should be familiar with what is in it. Your accountant will do the calcs etc but it shouldn't be difficult for you to make sure everything is there. Where your tax guy is valuable is spotting something you might have missed.

Correct, I got a reduction but less than that unfortunately. But still 500+VAT is a lot for me. I used to pay 150+VAT or 250+VAT in other countries I have filed IT returns. Anyway, if you say it is the average for the country for the kind of service I am availing of than I am fine with it.

Re your second point, the one to be considered valuable should be myself as I was the one to have spotted something the firm actually missed and that allowed me to save few hundred euros in taxes...

y0ssar1an22 · 11-03-2020 12:11AM

pasquale83 wrote: »

Yes, per return. I am paying 500+VAT for form 11 (rent income) including CGT calculation for a property I sold last year. Rent income is only for a couple of months as property has been sold indeed.

Is it really a lot? what should be a fair price?

form 11 seems reasonable. case 1, rent, cgt. seeing as your form 11 now will only consist of case 1 (I presume) look for a reduction there.

i'd feel guilty about charging for just filing vat returns. there's nothing to it. i'd just add maybe €100 to the form 11.

if your accountant is writing up the source records, then it depends on the number of invoices.

may be time to shop around

pasquale83 · 11-03-2020 12:13AM

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

form 11 seems reasonable. case 1, rent, cgt. seeing as your form 11 now will only consist of case 1 (I presume) look for a reduction there.

i'd feel guilty about charging for just filing vat returns. there's nothing to it. i'd just add maybe €100 to the form 11.

if your accountant is writing up the source records, then it depends on the number of invoices.

may be time to shop around

I don't have any business so no invoices...

what is case 1?

thanks!

Darc19 · 11-03-2020 12:18AM

This surely has to be a wind-up.

If not, then the op should be advised to close their business and become an employee.

As for the doctor comparison - any doctor / consultant I've had to engage has always got me to confirm even after a couple of consultations, that I am happy for them to proceed with the work.

Same with a dentist I am currently going to - before each appointment he let's me know what he is doing and asks if I'm happy with that.

November Golf · 11-03-2020 12:26AM

pasquale83 wrote: »

Asking me if I they can proceed with submission is putting all liability on myself.

You provided your personal data for the purpose of completing a Return, under GDPR its is probably in the accountant's DP policy to seek 'expressed consent' before sharing your data with a third party (such as revenue) even if your consent is implied (given the fact that you hired them to do it for you).

Also, even if the accountant is a professional tax adviser and completed the Return to perfection, under the tax consolidation act, the tax payer is always liability for the submission of and content of their tax return so it does make sense that they ask for your permission to proceed. If they submit it and its wrong, you are ultimately responsible for that.

Maewyn Succat · 11-03-2020 06:59PM

pasquale83 wrote: »

Again, I don't agree completely. Yes, I am providing details and they are doing paperwork, but in doing so they are using their professional knowledge that is what I am paying for.

They are called advisers indeed. As they advise me on how to complete the return and they complete it for me.

I would accept something like: "this is the IT return based on the details you provided and we advise you to submit it as it is. are you OK?"

Asking me if I they can proceed with submission is putting all liability on myself.

Which part of self assessment don't you understand?

You are basically paying for 2 separate services in one. The first service is advice and the second is filing the return.

y0ssar1an22 · 11-03-2020 07:12PM

pasquale83 wrote: »

I don't have any business so no invoices...

what is case 1?

thanks!

What's on the vat returns?

fankity flank · 13-03-2020 04:38PM

The accountant is relying on the information that you decide to send them, so there's an element of being blindsided to certain elements in your life that might impact upon your personal tax position.

Therefore you'll find that they are going to cover their ass at every available opportunity, and continue to remind you that the liability is all yours.

The alternative is essentially a more rigorous audit/assurance type exercise, for which you will pay a good deal more than €500 per year.

Why accountants ask me if I am OK with them filing my tax return?

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