ISDN style hunt groups on VoIP

dollylama · 03-03-2020 12:52am #1

Hi,

Are there any providers in Ireland who can do hunt groups on VoIP or is it even possible?

When I say hunt groups, I mean similar to how an old ISDN BRA could have two incoming lines behind one main number. If either line was busy, a call to the main number would ring in on the next line and calls out on either line would present the main number

Johnboy1951 · 03-03-2020 1:46am

dollylama wrote: »

Hi,

Are there any providers in Ireland who can do hunt groups on VoIP or is it even possible?

When I say hunt groups, I mean similar to how an old ISDN BRA could have two incoming lines behind one main number. If either line was busy, a call to the main number would ring in on the next line and calls out on either line would present the main number

It is not uncommon to be able to receive two simultaneous calls on VOIP to the same number.
How you handle those calls would be up to you and the system you have in place to receive the calls.

slegs · 03-03-2020 4:27pm

dollylama wrote: »

Hi,

Are there any providers in Ireland who can do hunt groups on VoIP or is it even possible?

When I say hunt groups, I mean similar to how an old ISDN BRA could have two incoming lines behind one main number. If either line was busy, a call to the main number would ring in on the next line and calls out on either line would present the main number

Yes many VoIP providers will allow you to register to the same number at multiple devices and all devices will ring when a call comes in. See the providers list for options in Ireland

Obviously the same thing can be achieved through a cloud PBX e.g. Freepbx in a virtual server. Call comes to PBX to be handled e.g. send to voice menu (press 1 for etc), call queue or to a ring group. The ring group could be multiple extensions.

dollylama · 05-03-2020 11:12pm

Thanks guys. It's as long since I done any comms, it's all forgotten!

I have the following:

1 geographic number for our business (with Vodafone on PSTN)

This number answers in the office on an analogue phone

1 (unused) high-power analogue cordless base and handset

I want to do this:

Geographic number answers in the office as at present

Office can transfer the call over to the analogue cordless

When cordless is on the call, calls to geographic number still ring in the office

Cordless and office can place calls out at the same time (2 channels)

I know from before this was bread and butter stuff for ISDN but I wince at the thought of even looking to get it installed now! I'm hopeful it wouldn't be too complex to do a combination of one of the online VoIP providers with an IP desk-phone and an ATA on our end. The multiple devices on one number sounds promising but then will I need another number anyways to do 2 outbound calls concurrently? Hosting a PBX, while definitely of interest is something I don't have the time to resource at present unfortunately

heffsarmy · 05-03-2020 11:25pm

Have a look at an SDH E1 circuit gives 32 x 64Kb voice or data channels.

Headshot · 05-03-2020 11:33pm

Is there any particular reason why you don't just go down the SIP route?

Bound to save you some money

dollylama · 06-03-2020 12:43am

Headshot wrote: »

Is there any particular reason why you don't just go down the SIP route?

Bound to save you some money

As in putting SIP clients on mobile phones instead of deskphone / cordless? I'm not keen on that as it seems an "always on" SIP client on mobile still to this day is hard on battery, the location doesn't lend itself to reliable mobile coverage, it certainly can't be covered easily with WiFi but the old cordless base-station can blanket it without issue.

Have I completely misunderstood your suggestion??

Headshot · 06-03-2020 12:53am

Kinda

I referring getting rid of the ISDN BRA lines completely and porting them to a SIP provider so in essence they'll become virtual numbers.

You can either get a SIP Dect base station to handle your calls or get a gateway to connect your analog phone to a your SIP provider services

A hosted PBX solution sounds like it would be ideal for you

Johnboy1951 · 06-03-2020 1:52am

dollylama wrote: »

As in putting SIP clients on mobile phones instead of deskphone / cordless? I'm not keen on that as it seems an "always on" SIP client on mobile still to this day is hard on battery, the location doesn't lend itself to reliable mobile coverage, it certainly can't be covered easily with WiFi but the old cordless base-station can blanket it without issue.

Have I completely misunderstood your suggestion??

I used SIP for all outgoing calls for years, using the only available ADSL via PSTN. Incoming calls came in on the landline.

I have since got FTTH and switched completely to VOIP SIP.
I still use my original SIP provider for outgoing calls, and I ported my landline to the broadband provider.
Incoming calls come through the broadband provider's set up.

I can receive two calls or make two (or more maybe) calls simultaneously.

I do not use VOIP phones. I use standard desktop phones and also a set of DECT phones.

Incoming calls cost about €5 per month.
Outgoing calls are charged on per minute (or part of min) basis.
Mobile calls are ~ 3c per min; landline ~ 1.5c per min.
I also get about 3 months free landline calls at each top up so the topup is used for mobile calls only.
No contract; can change CID to any number in my possession, or none.

Just the hardware costs and wiring to suit needs on top of above.

slegs · 06-03-2020 9:54am

dollylama wrote: »

As in putting SIP clients on mobile phones instead of deskphone / cordless? I'm not keen on that as it seems an "always on" SIP client on mobile still to this day is hard on battery, the location doesn't lend itself to reliable mobile coverage, it certainly can't be covered easily with WiFi but the old cordless base-station can blanket it without issue.

Have I completely misunderstood your suggestion??

Many if not most offices are in the process of moving to VoIP/SIP based telephone systems with SIP desk phones and cloud PBX. Less expensive than local kit and more flexible (multiple sites, mobile clients etc). From an end user perpesctive there is no difference as they see a deskphone. The fact that its voip or not inst even visible to them

Headshot · 06-03-2020 11:37pm

Even desktop phones are becoming rare these days as businesses are moving to a soft phone client that can be installed on a PC or even mobile phone

dollylama · 08-03-2020 12:06am

Thanks again guys but I think I may be confusing some so I'll clarify a little...

I don't have and don't intend on getting ISDN... I only mentioned it in referring to it's hunt group feature

I've no issues with deskphones being SIP or otherwise and I would intend on getting an IP deskphone. The sticking point is the phone for the yard employee. I would love to put a SIP client / account on his current mobile phone but my past experience was that an "always on" SIP client guzzled battery and this seems to remain the case today based on reviews. I'd be open to doing an IP DECT system but the area to cover is large and doesn't play nice with signals.. mobile, WiFi or otherwise. So that leaves me with using an old analogue cordless phone and base station we have here that... while possibly no longer legal (!) ... has excellent coverage in the yard. I'd pop in an ATA and add a SIP account to it

I'm happy enough on the hardware side of things but I wan't to narrow down a VoIP provider who can do the routing bit

Johnboy1951 · 08-03-2020 12:51am

I would suggest you begin by doing some tests yourself.
Maybe https://www.irishvoip.com/ would be helpful in planning and testing your new set up.
You can do a 'no contract' period with them to ensure you are happy with the set up.
I found them very helpful when I made enquiries there, even though I did not use them in the end.
They might even have someone who could help with your planned setup.

Marlow · 28-03-2020 11:22pm

Headshot wrote: »

Even desktop phones are becoming rare these days as businesses are moving to a soft phone client that can be installed on a PC or even mobile phone

The voice quality of most softphones is not sufficient to what businesses require. It depends on the business.

So desk phones .. even though they may be VoIP phones .. are still very very common.

slegs wrote: »

Yes many VoIP providers will allow you to register to the same number at multiple devices and all devices will ring when a call comes in. See the providers list for options in Ireland

That there won't work. It will result in, that only the last client, who registered gets the calls.

You need individual SIP credentials for each phone and maybe the provider will send you the call for the same number to all SIP accounts. That would work.

Anyhow OP .. here is the culprit .. and please correct me, if I get this wrong:

- you currently have an analogue line with a desk phone and a cordless phone connected, which probably is connected to a base build into the desk phone.
- you can transfer between the desk phone and the cordless phone.

Here is the culprit: once you have a call established .. that's it. End of line.

Solution approaches
A Gigaset DX800A All in one is a desk phone, that can handle analogue, ISDN and VoIP. It also has bluetooth and a DECT basestation build in.

To achieve what you want to do, you can do 3 things:
* configure a forward on busy on your landline (if you have that feature) and send the number to:
** a VoIP number, that you have somewhere else, which also is configured in said phone (if you have sufficient broadband)
** a mobile number, that rings a mobile phone, that you have connected via bluetooth with the DX800A (if you don't have sufficient broadband)

Or .. solution 2 (if you have sufficient broadband):
* port your landline to VoIP and get rid of the landline
* make sure to go with a provider, that will allow you more than one call on the same number and can give you multiple SIP accounts for the one number
* configure 2 SIP accounts on the DX800A (one for the desk one, one for the DECT handset)

Or .. solution 3 (if you have sufficient broadband and especially when you only can get 1 SIP account with your VoIP provider):
* port your landline to VoIP and rid of the landline
* install a softPBX with VoIP capabilities or get one that is hosted (https://www.3cx.com/ is a real good candidate)
* set up the phone number as an inbound number
* and then use something like the Siemens DX800A + it's DECT base or an AVM Fritz!Box with your desk phone and DECT phones connected to the Fritz!Box as your switchboard.

Just a few examples. But there is no way, that you get 2 calls through your analogue line either way, form or shape. But I guess you knew that.

Also, a VoIP provider like https://zadarma.com/ will let you sign up, then verify up to 5 numbers you have via callback or SMS verification and then let you make outbound calls showing your normal/main number, even though it's not ported to them. Yes, they are in Bulgaria, but I've used them for years and the voice quality and pricing is superb. Their security measures to keep your account safe, too.

/M

slegs · 29-03-2020 2:43pm

Marlow wrote: »

That there won't work. It will result in, that only the last client, who registered gets the calls.

Sorry but this just isn't true. SIP is designed to be multi end point by nature.

Many devices can register with same credentials, all ring, pick up on one.

Download Freepbx and check it out yourself. You can have 1 PJSIP extension account and register 3 devices to it.

Now you are correct that some ISP providers have an issue with configuring their systems to allow multiple contacts on the same credentials but that has more to do with their local setup than anything else

Marlow · 29-03-2020 2:48pm

slegs wrote: »

Sorry but this just isn't true. SIP is designed to be multi end point by nature.

Many devices can register with same credentials, all ring, pick up on one.

It doesn't matter what SIP is designed for. It matters, what the platform is designed for, that hosts the SIP account. And you can not rely on, that it works.

slegs wrote: »

Download Freepbx and check it out yourself. You can have 1 PJSIP extension account and register 3 devices to it.

I've been working with VoIP since 1997 .. back then Lucent ITS-SP with H.323 and also later also Asterisk (which FreePBX is based on) since before 1.0 releases.

And there is a LOT of brokeness in implementation. Just because it SHOULD work, does not mean it WILL work. And that is, why giving the advise you did, can go more wrong than it will go right.

And especially when one, like the OP, wants to transfer calls from one phone to another, then it's important, that each phone has it's own instance. You can't do that, if all phones have the same SIP account.

/M

Marlow · 29-03-2020 2:59pm

And let me add to that:

if you have FreePBX installed, why on earth would you register all phones on the same SIP account and miss out on all the other functionality, like being able to transfer calls and creating call groups ?

Each phone should be on an individual extension / internal SIP account.

I mean .. your setup sounds like shooting pidgeons with cannons.

/M

slegs · 29-03-2020 3:25pm

Marlow wrote: »

It doesn't matter what SIP is designed for. It matters, what the platform is designed for, that hosts the SIP account. And you can not rely on, that it works.

I've been working with VoIP since 1997 .. back then Lucent ITS-SP with H.323 and also later also Asterisk (which FreePBX is based on) since before 1.0 releases.

And there is a LOT of brokeness in implementation. Just because it SHOULD work, does not mean it WILL work. And that is, why giving the advise you did, can go more wrong than it will go right.

And especially when one, like the OP, wants to transfer calls from one phone to another, then it's important, that each phone has it's own instance. You can't do that, if all phones have the same SIP account.

/M

You are wrong and no need to be so pompous. You said it wasn’t possible but it is.

I also work in Telco for 20 years and currently run a VoIP ISP. I am expert in Asterisk, Kamailio and have seen this use case working.

So get off your high horse. You aren’t the only expert on the internet

slegs · 29-03-2020 3:27pm

Marlow wrote: »

And let me add to that:

if you have FreePBX installed, why on earth would you register all phones on the same SIP account and miss out on all the other functionality, like being able to transfer calls and creating call groups ?

Each phone should be on an individual extension / internal SIP account.

I mean .. your setup sounds like shooting pidgeons with cannons.

/M

Was only referring to you saying that you can’t register the same contact multiple times

What do you know about my setup?

You really are an ass

Marlow · 29-03-2020 4:20pm

slegs wrote: »

You are wrong

No, I gave advice, that prevents a new user from running into trouble. This is not about right or wrong. It is to achieve the best possible outcome for somebody that is completely new to the material.

It's no good, when you tell somebody to do something, that may not work in the end. They'll run into trouble and give up. Too many variables. Limit the chance of failure.

slegs wrote: »

What do you know about my setup?

I am referring to what you have stated here. And that is the only information, I have. My comments are based on this very information.

At least I don't get personal and name people things. The ones that do that are really the ones, that are what they call others.

/M

slegs · 29-03-2020 4:28pm

Marlow wrote: »

That there won't work. It will result in, that only the last client, who registered gets the calls.

That statement was wrong and that was all I corrected - nothing else. Nothing wrong with your advice after that. Would agree with it for the most part. I made no advice relative to Freepbx nor did I state that was my setup when correcting your error.

You are the one who got all pompous and superior quoting years of experience. You didn't like being corrected so starting acting like an ass and you got called on it.

Marlow · 29-03-2020 4:33pm

slegs wrote: »

You are the one who got all pompous and superior quoting years of experience. You didn't like being corrected so starting acting like an ass and you got called on it.

If you can't rely on a service to act, like you describe it, then you can't assume that it will do that.

Telling somebody they are wrong is incorrect. Because you can not guarantee that it always will work. And SIP accounts do behave differently depending on the platform, that you connect to.

So .. my statement would work in EVERY scenario, your statement would work in SOME scenarios. What's the better advise?

I did not say, you were wrong. I said:

That there won't work. It will result in, that only the last client, who registered gets the calls.

Which is the case in most commercial setups.

And you got all upset by that.

This is not about right or wrong. This is about giving the best advise to somebody, who is new to the material. Don't give advice, that may lead to failure.

/M

ISDN style hunt groups on VoIP

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