US Presidential Election 2020

Joe_ Public · 02-03-2020 8:06pm

sid waddell wrote: »

It is a centrist attack on Sanders and it's laughable.

Klobuchar has pulled out of the race and endorsed Biden, one day before her home primary.

Biden must be making some serious promises to her and Buttigieg to get them to drop out one/two days before Super Tuesday.

Not surprising, is it? Between biden offering whatever, at least one of them vp, and who knows what other senior party members leaning on them, the centrists were obviously going to fight back hard. Meanwhile, Warrens desperate campaign going to limp on to final humiliation in mass it seems.

Foxtrol · 02-03-2020 8:16pm

sid waddell wrote: »

Again, you say Sanders is not doing well with black voters. Yet a poll in the last week showed Sanders ahead with black voters nationwide.

You do realise that Joe Biden lied about being arrested trying to get see Nelson Mandela in South Africa? He has continually lied about his connections to the civil rights campaign in the 1960s.

What does that say about his attitude to black people?

As regards your last sentence, what exactly do you have a problem with when I said should Bernie Sanders be the nominee in November, he will win the overwhelming majority of the black voters in South Carolina? Though whoever the Democratic nominee is, they are highly unlikely to win South Carolina.

As you have said yourself, the key states are the mid-west ones that Trump won last time. And Sanders is currently polling ahead of Biden in all of them.

Whataboutery with Biden doesn't work. The black community knows him and so far we've seen how they've voted.

Again, a poll showed Bernie nearly even with Biden in SC.

Again, nationwide polls are basically worthless bit for US politics. If Bernie carries huge numbers of black and hispanic support in NY and California but doesn't in battleground states he loses in November.

Narrowing yourself to the rust belt as the only path to victory is incredibly dangerous.

Foxtrol · 02-03-2020 8:18pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Not surprising, is it? Between biden offering whatever, at least one of them vp, and who knows what other senior party members leaning on them, the centrists were obviously going to fight back hard. Meanwhile, Warrens desperate campaign going to limp on to final humiliation in mass it seems.

So the others dropping out is a centrist plot but you are upset that Warren won't drop out to help Bernie :rolleyes:

Imagine Warren dropping out and people believing it was some progressive conspiracy :pac:

Manic Moran · 02-03-2020 8:18pm

duploelabs wrote: »

Amy Klobuchar has dropped out and endorsed Biden

Bugger. I'm going to have to rethink my vote now.

Stacksofwacks · 02-03-2020 8:19pm

I think the dems are backing the wrong horse here. Biden is a walking disaster, none of the options are great but imo they should have unfied behind Buttigieg(who's a much better candidate) to beat Sanders. But Biden's ego wouldn't allow it. If it comes down to a 2 person race then Bernie has the nomination. Bloomberg is loathed left and right and is going nowhere.

sid waddell · 02-03-2020 8:21pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Whataboutery with Biden doesn't work. The black community knows him and so far we've seen how they've voted.

Again, a poll showed Bernie nearly even with Biden in SC.

Again, nationwide polls are basically worthless bit for US politics. If Bernie carries huge numbers of black and hispanic support in NY and California but doesn't in battleground states he loses in November.

Narrowing yourself to the rust belt as the only path to victory is incredibly dangerous.

I'm literally quoting your own argument about the rust belt states.

OK, so Biden actually continually lying to the black community doesn't matter, but hey, Bernie said something about Cuba having good literacy and healthcare, so hang him.

This is laughable. You'd be better off just being honest and say "I hate Bernie and will shamelessly twist anything to make him look bad". That's about the sum total of your argument.

Which considering you were accusing his supporters of being like Trump, is rather ironic.

Foxtrol · 02-03-2020 8:27pm

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

I think the dems are backing the wrong horse here. Biden is a walking disaster, none of the options are great but imo they should have unfied behind Buttigieg(who's a much better candidate) to beat Sanders. But Biden's ego wouldn't allow it. If it comes down to a 2 person race then Bernie has the nomination. Bloomberg is loathed left and right and is going nowhere.

They could never unify behind Pete because he wouldnt be able to bring along black voters, he was low single digits in SC.

Joe_ Public · 02-03-2020 8:28pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

So the others dropping out is a centrist plot but you are upset that Warren won't drop out to help Bernie :rolleyes:

Imagine Warren dropping out and people believing it was some progressive conspiracy :pac:

Why do you think klobuchar bailed, especially after buttigieg had gone? At least she was heading the polls in her home state, something warren isnt doing. I think warren should have gone a week ago and i still want her to be vp, despite the differences they've had.

sid waddell · 02-03-2020 8:31pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

See this is the crux of the matter.

Bernie supporters ask why people have concerns about him, people list their concerns and they are deemed as 'utter irrelevancies'.

The reason why this example matters, along with a laundry list of others, is that it shows that Bernie is an ideologue, doesn't know how to compromise, and has no idea how to govern. Sure Obama didn't follow through on everything he promised during the first term but he spent nearly all his capital on getting Obama through, even though it meant suicide for many democrats.

I say it's an utter irrelevancy because that's exactly what it is, a total irrelevancy. Either way.

You seem to care about it a hell of a lot though. Finger on the pulse on all that.

It isn't a crime for a politician to not be sycophantic towards Obama, much as you might like it to be.

Let me remind you that you just said Biden continually lying to the African-Ameerican community about being part of the civil rights struggle and lying about being arrested trying to see Nelson Mandela, doesn't matter at all.

So, serious lies are grand as far as you're concerned, but not being sycophantic enough towards Obama is disqualifying.

And you criticise others about "ideological purity".

Wot a larf.

Manic Moran · 02-03-2020 8:33pm

For the record, going back a few pages as a further sample, I pay about $340/mo for my health insurance (incl dental and vision) for myself and my family, with a $500 deductible. If I were unmarried/no kids, I'd be paying $71/mo (Or $32/mo with a $1000 deductible). Perhaps other US-based Boardsies can chime in for more of a sample.

I fully accept that others pay more and would benefit from a change in the system. I also presume that others pay less or the same. They may not benefit as much. All have a vote on the matter.

Frankly, given the horrendous inefficiency of the US's healthcare system, I think we would all benefit if something were done to simply reduce the overhead costs. It's not so much a matter of 'who pays for it', it's a matter of 'why the hell does it cost so much in the first place?'. My then-1-year-old spend four days in Intensive Care last year, the bill was a ridiculous cost, well in the five figures (Insurance covered the vast majority, of course, the rest I used pre-tax dollars). There is a difference between a call for universal healthcare, with similar daft inefficiency, and one for cheaper healthcare which is generally still on the same current system.

Stacksofwacks · 02-03-2020 8:35pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

They could never unify behind Pete because he wouldnt be able to bring along black voters, he was low single digits in SC.

He performed well on the first 3 states though, it was always going to be tough for him in SC as Biden had gambled it all on that state. You should check out Biden's polling numbers in the remaining states when you get a chance, they're awful, for a so called front runner and former VP(Obama's VP at that, who wont even endorse him). Bernie will smash Biden to pieces if this goes the distance. If the plan is to bring it to a contested convention then Buttigieg would have been the better bet, imo

Foxtrol · 02-03-2020 8:42pm

sid waddell wrote: »

I'm literally quoting your own argument about the rust belt states.

Where have I said to ignore other battleground states? My whole issue with the Castro comments is that it takes Florida off the map.

OK, so Biden actually continually lying to the black community doesn't matter, but hey, Bernie said something about Cuba having good literacy and healthcare, so hang him.

There was no victim to what Biden said, whereas what Castro did is extremely raw for many folk who were directly hurt by him.

It doesn't matter what you deem as being fair, it is what the people impacted feel about it.

This is laughable. You'd be better off just being honest and say "I hate Bernie and will shamelessly twist anything to make him look bad". That's about the sum total of your argument.

Which considering you were accusing his supporters of being like Trump, is rather ironic.

You're missing the big difference here, I also think Biden is an incredibly flawed candidate, I'm however not out defending him from practically every negative comment. You just refuse to accept the flaws with Bernie

Foxtrol · 02-03-2020 8:48pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Why do you think klobuchar bailed, especially after buttigieg had gone? At least she was heading the polls in her home state, something warren isnt doing. I think warren should have gone a week ago and i still want her to be vp, despite the differences they've had.

Because she had no route to victory and has a long future so hanging on now will only result in resentment against her.

I really like Warren, probably my favourite candidate. I see a ticket of her and Bernie as being way too old, especially with his health issues. This will likely be her last chance to run so I can see her hanging on in the hopes of being an agreeable 3rd option come a contested convention

Foxtrol · 02-03-2020 8:57pm

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

He performed well on the first 3 states though, it was always going to be tough for him in SC as Biden had gambled it all on that state. You should check out Biden's polling numbers in the remaining states when you get a chance, they're awful, for a so called front runner and former VP(Obama's VP at that, who wont even endorse him). Bernie will smash Biden to pieces if this goes the distance. If the plan is to bring it to a contested convention then Buttigieg would have been the better bet, imo

The first 2 states shouldn't come into anyone's assessment as they are completely unrepresentative of the country.

I wouldn't say they are awful. Bernie was the clear front runner when most of those polls were taken and Biden's campaign listed as basically dead. Since then Biden had the most convincing win of any state in the cycle and Pete and Amy have dropped out, with Bloomberg potentially feeling the need to follow if Tuesday goes poorly.

Joe_ Public · 02-03-2020 9:00pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Because she had no route to victory and has a long future so hanging on now will only result in resentment against her.

I really like Warren, probably my favourite candidate. I see a ticket of her and Bernie as being way too old, especially with his health issues. This will likely be her last chance to run so I can see her hanging on in the hopes of being an agreeable 3rd option come a contested convention

Ok, but it took her right up to the eve of polling day to arrive at that conclusion? Why not several days ago before she'd committed a lot more money to it? Pete going gave her more incentive to stay in than anything. Anyway, I'm not alleging unspeakable dastardly plots here. It's politics and this is how politics is played. I dont think its definite that biden will get a huge spike from this, or the one he hopes amyway, any more than sanders would gain hugely from warren quitting. If they'd quit sooner it would have helped more.

Rjd2 · 02-03-2020 9:04pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Because she had no route to victory and has a long future so hanging on now will only result in resentment against her.

I really like Warren, probably my favourite candidate. I see a ticket of her and Bernie as being way too old, especially with his health issues. This will likely be her last chance to run so I can see her hanging on in the hopes of being an agreeable 3rd option come a contested convention

Who exactly is Warren an agreeable candidate for bar white liberal NYT writers which are her base? She has done **** all so far in the primaries that have took place and is predicted to do absolute **** all tomorrow.

Bernie's base are right to be skeptical of her, she did not endorse him in 2016 instead played it safe and right now with no path to victory she is hanging around hitting Bernie.

If Bernie survives this establishment coup then he is entitled to tell her to **** of regarding the VP spot. May as well go for someone like Nina Turner or one of the squad who are out there putting in the work.

Stacksofwacks · 02-03-2020 9:05pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

The first 2 states shouldn't come into anyone's assessment as they are completely unrepresentative of the country.

I wouldn't say they are awful. Bernie was the clear front runner when most of those polls were taken and Biden's campaign listed as basically dead. Since then Biden had the most convincing win of any state in the cycle and Pete and Amy have dropped out, with Bloomberg potentially feeling the need to follow if Tuesday goes poorly.

That Biden is only single digits in California, the largest and most blue state should tell you all you need to know. The name recognition Biden has and the positive media coverage he gets(by and large) yet 9 out of 10 of those voters are saying no, not for me Joe

Foxtrol · 02-03-2020 9:15pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Ok, but it took her right up to the eve of polling day to arrive at that conclusion? Why not several days ago before she'd committed a lot more money to it? Pete going gave her more incentive to stay in than anything. Anyway, I'm not alleging unspeakable dastardly plots here. It's politics and this is how politics is played. I dont think its definite that biden will get a huge spike from this, or the one he hopes amyway, any more than sanders would gain hugely from warren quitting. If they'd quit sooner it would have helped more.

There's a saying it is harder to get out of a presidential race then to get into one. It is a snowball thing. Steyer went probably in part that he was sick of spending his own money and I doubt Pete goes if Steyer didn't and Amy doesn't go without Pete going.

I don't see the incentive you speak of for her to stay in? She risks annoying people who would blame her if Biden fails on Tuesday while also risking the general embarrassment of losing her home state.

Their votes could go anywhere but there is a larger likelihood they go towards Biden after his performance in SC than if they dropped out this time last week.

Foxtrol · 02-03-2020 9:20pm

Rjd2 wrote: »

Who exactly is Warren an agreeable candidate for bar white liberal NYT writers which are her base? She has done **** all so far in the primaries that have took place and is predicted to do absolute **** all tomorrow.

Bernie's base are right to be skeptical of her, she did not endorse him in 2016 instead played it safe and right now with no path to victory she is hanging around hitting Bernie.

If Bernie survives this establishment coup then he is entitled to tell her to **** of regarding the VP spot. May as well go for someone like Nina Turner or one of the squad who are out there putting in the work.

Her base should be people who want progressive policies and a person who has demonstrated an ability to achieve things, rather than just angrily shout about them.

I thought she'd get some transfer from the Clinton glass ceiling crowd but it seems that people are afraid of female candidates.

It seems a world wide thing that the more left you are, the more you have more personalities that want to lead the revolution rather than coalesce.

briany · 02-03-2020 9:35pm

I wonder what Hillary Clinton would think if Biden became US president? Outwardly, she'd express great happiness about it, I'm sure, but inside she'd have to be wondering why they picked Biden in 2020 and not her in 2016. They both very much represent that old-school Democrat establishment.

Rjd2 · 02-03-2020 9:36pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Her base should be people who want progressive policies and a person who has demonstrated an ability to achieve things, rather than just angrily shout about them.

I thought she'd get some transfer from the Clinton glass ceiling crowd but it seems that people are afraid of female candidates.

It seems a world wide thing that the more left you are, the more you have more personalities that want to lead the revolution rather than coalesce.

She was smashing it initially in the polls when it looked like she was running on a hardcore economic populist ticket, heck even Tucker was praising her.

Then it all feel apart and she has to take the blame there rather than the big bad sexist media. I'd have more sympathy for the vocal twitter Warren online base who are alleging sexism if they had not spent the last few years calling Tulsi a woman of color a traitor to her nation though.

She'd be a better president than all bar Bernie and Tulsi (still running somehow) but if comes to a convention then it has to be Bernie or sadly Biden who both have proven they can win states.

sid waddell · 02-03-2020 9:42pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Where have I said to ignore other battleground states? My whole issue with the Castro comments is that it takes Florida off the map.

There was no victim to what Biden said, whereas what Castro did is extremely raw for many folk who were directly hurt by him.

It doesn't matter what you deem as being fair, it is what the people impacted feel about it.

You're missing the big difference here, I also think Biden is an incredibly flawed candidate, I'm however not out defending him from practically every negative comment. You just refuse to accept the flaws with Bernie

I've actually criticised Bernie on this thread and by no means think he's perfect, and he wasn't even my first preference from the field - Warren was - if you could fuse the best bits of the two that would be my ideal candidate.

You're doing nothing projecting your own ultra-apologism for Biden onto me.

Joe_ Public · 02-03-2020 9:43pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

There's a saying it is harder to get out of a presidential race then to get into one. It is a snowball thing. Steyer went probably in part that he was sick of spending his own money and I doubt Pete goes if Steyer didn't and Amy doesn't go without Pete going.

I don't see the incentive you speak of for her to stay in? She risks annoying people who would blame her if Biden fails on Tuesday while also risking the general embarrassment of losing her home state.

Their votes could go anywhere but there is a larger likelihood they go towards Biden after his performance in SC than if they dropped out this time last week.

I dont know if there was incentive for her to stay in. Polls showed her on target to win her home state so she could have played those odds, then withdrawn on a high. But, as you suggest, she obviously doesnt want to upset her potential future boss and maybe she came to decision today to upstage buttigieg and lay claim to the vp spot. The sense of urgency about the dem establishment is palpable though. SC gave them momentum, the prospect of sanders streaking clear tomorrow has induced a sense of controlled panic. Its clear to me anyway that the machine has been in overdrive past few days, how could it be any other way given their horror of sanders and all he represents?

eagle eye · 02-03-2020 9:49pm

sid waddell wrote:

What evidence is there to suggest that?

The Irish healthcare system isxa good start.

Joe_ Public · 02-03-2020 9:49pm

briany wrote: »

I wonder what Hillary Clinton would think if Biden became US president? Outwardly, she'd express great happiness about it, I'm sure, but inside she'd have to be wondering why they picked Biden in 2020 and not her in 2016. They both very much represent that old-school Democrat establishment.

She'd console herself by asserting that her campaign had laid the groudwork for bidens victory, while analysts would pick out how bidens team had studiuosly avoided the amateurish mistakes and arrogance that littered her campaign from the beginning. If sanders wins, there will be simply no consoling her.

StringerBell · 02-03-2020 9:50pm

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

That Biden is only single digits in California, the largest and most blue state should tell you all you need to know. The name recognition Biden has and the positive media coverage he gets(by and large) yet 9 out of 10 of those voters are saying no, not for me Joe

Not really, whoever is the Dem nominee will win California, the margin of that victory will depend on the candidate but as the system is electoral college it doesn't matter one little bit.

The states that matter are not the guaranteed blue or red ones, its the other ones. The battleground/swing states.

Biden polls well in them, as does Sanders.

As long as the party unites behind whoever is the nominee and stays focused on the big picture instead of doing what it does best and cutting its nose off to spite its face they will retake the white house. The Senate has no chance though if Sanders is the top of the ballot, that I would say and they could lose some ground in the House too.

rossie1977 · 02-03-2020 9:58pm

Looks like interesting day tomorrow

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sid waddell · 02-03-2020 10:05pm

I see that Biden has hired a supporter of India's viciously anti-Muslim BJP as, wait for it, his Muslim Outreach Co-ordinator.

It'd be like hiring a KKK member as an African-American outreach co-ordinator.

https://muslimmatters.org/2020/02/27/meet-joe-bidens-muslim-outreach-coordinator-a-supporter-of-narendra-modi-and-his-islamophobic-hindu-nationalist-agenda/

If it is Trump v Biden, it'll be a battle of two candidates with early onset dementia.

https://twitter.com/shujaxhaider/status/1234574038372159488

StringerBell · 02-03-2020 10:06pm

Bloomberg should be dropping out pretty soon in all honesty along with Warren I guess. It's now a two way race between two elderly white men, incredible.

Joe_ Public · 02-03-2020 10:09pm

StringerBell wrote: »

Not really, whoever is the Dem nominee will win California, the margin of that victory will depend on the candidate but as the system is electoral college it doesn't matter one little bit.

The states that matter are not the guaranteed blue or red ones, its the other ones. The battleground/swing states.

Biden polls well in them, as does Sanders.

As long as the party unites behind whoever is the nominee and stays focused on the big picture instead of doing what it does best and cutting its nose off to spite its face they will retake the white house. The Senate has no chance though if Sanders is the top of the ballot, that I would say and they could lose some ground in the House too.

I wouldnt quibble with any of that. A big win for sanders in California, the most populous and diverse state in the US, has definite value right now though in that it cements the notion that he appeals to every group and demographic. I know that myth about his narrow appeal has been shred anyway but would be no harm to see it laid bare in real voting data. Assuming the polling is accurate.

US Presidential Election 2020

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