Star Trek: Picard - Amazon Prime [ POSSIBLE SPOILERS ]

Inviere · 01-03-2020 04:59AM

pah wrote: »

Convenient :rolleyes:

It's not convenient just because you don't like how the character turned out though.

Irumodic Syndrome.
Rejected by an organisation he literally devoted his life to.
Twenty years older.
Loss of a dear friend in a moment of self sacrifice.

You'd swear he was still a drone the way some people expect him to shake this stuff off. The man I'm seeing, five episodes in, has thrown his retirement aside in the hopes of protecting a girl who's in danger, despite all of the above (there's also the small hint that it's possible to somehow 'save' Data in all of this). That's pretty damn Jean-Luc to me.

GM228 · 01-03-2020 07:51AM

marcbrophy wrote: »

People seem to be forgetting that these are all symptoms of Irumodic Syndrome. Which the doc told him he had.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Irumodic_Syndrome

If you ask me, this is exactly what Picard would be like after this condition starts to take hold!

But only in the future as depicted by Q, all that he had/has in the present outside of Qs version of the future was a small structural defect in his parietal lobe which could (note "could" so inconclusive) lead to such a condition or similar conditions.

Inviere · 01-03-2020 08:01AM

GM228 wrote: »

But only in the future as depicted by Q, all that he had/has in the present outside of Qs version of the future was a small structural defect in his parietal lobe which could (note "could" so inconclusive) lead to such a condition or similar conditions.

Regardless, there's a defect in his parietal lobe.

Stark · 01-03-2020 08:12AM

GM228 wrote: »

But only in the future as depicted by Q, all that he had/has in the present outside of Qs version of the future was a small structural defect in his parietal lobe which could (note "could" so inconclusive) lead to such a condition or similar conditions.

There was a strong hint the condition was taking hold in one of the earlier episodes of STP as well.

Goodshape · 01-03-2020 04:46PM

pah wrote: »

Admiral Picard of 14 years ago would have fought harder than he did for what he believed in based on the captain Picard we knew from just a few years previous to that.

Well he did effectively resign over it.

_Kaiser_ · 02-03-2020 12:34AM

Goodshape wrote: »

Well he did effectively resign over it.

Which is out of character in itself, especially for something he was so adamant about and dedicated to.

The Picard of old would have rounded up the old gang and gone rogue if needed (eg: First Contact when he ignores Command and brings the Enterprise into the battle with the Cube, or Insurrection where he violates orders again to defend the Ba'ku).

He wouldn't have thrown away his influence and career in a failed attempt to call Command's bluff, and he definitely wouldn't have given up and gone home to wallow while millions died and his loyal second (Raffi) took the fall as well.

Xertz · 02-03-2020 01:56AM

Inviere wrote: »

Regardless, there's a defect in his parietal lobe.

You’d hardly think that would be beyond medicine in that era, given some of the stuff Dr Crusher has managed to resolve over the years.

Also could he just not get a Borg parietal lobe update?

uncleoswald · 02-03-2020 08:26AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The Picard of old would have rounded up the old gang and gone rogue if needed (eg: First Contact when he ignores Command and brings the Enterprise into the battle with the Cube, or Insurrection where he violates orders again to defend the Ba'ku).

But movie Picard was vastly different to TNG Picard so who the hell knows what he would do in any situation anymore. TNG Picard probably would have solemnly carried out his duties but then the Federation of TNG would never have abandoned the Romulans like that (I'm still not sure why they did in Picard, something to do with some rouge synths destroying the shipyards on Mars...

I'm not sure how the two events are related but I'm an episode behind so maybe that gets explained a bit better.

_Kaiser_ · 02-03-2020 09:14AM

uncleoswald wrote: »

But movie Picard was vastly different to TNG Picard so who the hell knows what he would do in any situation anymore. TNG Picard probably would have solemnly carried out his duties but then the Federation of TNG would never have abandoned the Romulans like that (I'm still not sure why they did in Picard, something to do with some rouge synths destroying the shipyards on Mars... I'm not sure how the two events are related but I'm an episode behind so maybe that gets explained a bit better.

The Picard of TNG wasn't averse to bending or breaking the rules (including the Prime Directive) on occasion if it was the right thing to do though.

TNG or movie era, he just wouldn't have abandoned the Romulans like that, especially after his experience and mind meld with Sarek and Spock himself (the latter of whom was firmly committed to establishing a proper peace between them, Vulcan and the Federation).

Evade · 02-03-2020 11:07AM

Season one Picard didn't have much of an issue going against Starfleet Command when their orders didn't make sense.

Stark · 02-03-2020 11:14AM

Wasn't a matter of just "going against orders". How do you migrate billions of people without the help of the Federation/Starfleet?

The shipyards on Mars were involved in a massive shipbuilding program to make the migration feasible. With the shipyards destroyed, they didn't have enough remaining ships to continue the mission and keep the Federation running at the same time.

Evade · 02-03-2020 11:22AM

If you're someone like Picard you do what you can. Gather public support, call in all your favours, since money exists again sell your vineyard and buy your own ship(s) and Dunkirk it like in his analogy.

pixelburp · 02-03-2020 11:30AM

"Money exists again"? That doesn't seem correct: this is getting into spoilers for the actual show TBH but

the latest episode confirmed that Rios was being paid in Latinum, which only confirms that that still exists, and humans living outside of the Fed take it

Stark · 02-03-2020 11:41AM

The whole Federation economy thing doesn't really make sense anyway. You see cafes and restaurants on Earth in TNG-era Trek. I guess we're supposed to believe that the proprietors keep them going for the love of serving people but that doesn't really add up. In the prequel book, Agnes and Bruce Maddox are nearly kicked out of a cafe for not buying anything.

I think it's more likely that the Federation operates on a universal basic income basis. All basic needs like food, shelter, healthcare, education are met but if you want anything more than the basics, then latinum is involved.

tromtipp · 02-03-2020 12:58PM

There were also those 'transporter credits' that Ben Sisko used up when he started at the Academy. Maybe they were a students-only thing, but maybe not. A credits system could be rationalised as not-really-money if it didn't accumulate interest, but is still currency. And it's hard to imagine that a huge credits-to-Latinum exchange system wouldn't develop very quickly. There are also those expensive-looking private collections of objects people put together - the African art from Ben's library, Marla Aster's stuff - and it seems that material possessions can pass down the generations.

So yes, lots of holes in the economic theory there.

pixelburp · 02-03-2020 01:30PM

I like the "universal income" idea, it would neatly explains the apparently visible economy / society not unlike our own on Federation Earth, yet wouldn't contradict the idea that the Federation promotes a non-material focused lifestyle.

The Expanse does it, albeit (IIRC) using it more of a caste based crutch, where the overpopulated Earth has to restrict job or voting access to those who "graduate" out of that UBI system. Honestly it's something I've thought of myself: with automation becoming more a reality, yet birthrates still climbing, it's entirely possible Western Countries have a permanent class of unemployed. There may not be enough jobs for everyone in the future.

Sad Professor · 02-03-2020 08:03PM

UBI is a fairly right-wing idea and a far cry from Picard's description of a society with no money, hunger, want, etc. They have obviously just abandoned the idea of the Federation being a post-scarcity society. In fairness, despite paying lip service to the idea, the TNG/DS9 writers could never get their heads around it anyway. It was all bit too communist sounding to them and in the end of history/TINA era they struggled to even imagine it. Star Trek Picard depicts the 24th century as being much like the present - same clothes, same slang, same social issues, etc - but everyone has holographic computers. The utopianism is gone. And what's worse the show doesn't even acknowledge that it's gone.

Goodshape · 02-03-2020 10:28PM

UBI isn't necessarily right-wing at all. There's a socially conservative take on it – which usually includes the idea of paying for it all by eliminating existing social programs which would have been used primarily by people with lower income – but that's not the only way to do "UBI". Although maybe that's a discussion for another forum! :-D

Anyway I'm not sure they have shown that "utopianism is gone". Don't think they've either confirmed or denied. We've hardly seen the Federation or Starfleet. A couple of unhappy people (Rafi and the captain guy) isn't proof of anything. Nor is coruption in Starfleet or the existance of a comerical planet, or even people having a job or getting paid for things.

Picard owning an expansive vineyard is difficult to square, but we don't know the setup there. And it didn't make any more sense in the 1990s TV show either.

pixelburp · 02-03-2020 11:56PM

Yeah I wouldn't have squared UBI as right wing, surely if implemented correctly and fairly (which we may assume in the example of the Fed), it's the ultimate in left wing ideology - in that the "state" takes care of all your comforts and needs. Cant say I've thought too much about or too hard about it, beyond this thread

Have the books or spin off media ever tried to square the circle of the (intentionally?) ambiguous mechanics of Fed Earth's society? Seems ironic that for a franchise famed for granular, pedantic fandom, arguably what's the core geographic location in its universe remains sketchy at best. Feels like we know more about Romulan or Cardassian society than Earth's.

Mollyb60 · 03-03-2020 11:49AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Which is out of character in itself, especially for something he was so adamant about and dedicated to.

The Picard of old would have rounded up the old gang and gone rogue if needed (eg: First Contact when he ignores Command and brings the Enterprise into the battle with the Cube, or Insurrection where he violates orders again to defend the Ba'ku).

He wouldn't have thrown away his influence and career in a failed attempt to call Command's bluff, and he definitely wouldn't have given up and gone home to wallow while millions died and his loyal second (Raffi) took the fall as well.

Stark wrote: »

Wasn't a matter of just "going against orders". How do you migrate billions of people without the help of the Federation/Starfleet?

The shipyards on Mars were involved in a massive shipbuilding program to make the migration feasible. With the shipyards destroyed, they didn't have enough remaining ships to continue the mission and keep the Federation running at the same time.

We've been having this argument in my house since the show started. I think Picard would've thrown everything he had at the rescue attempt, saved as many as he could which whatever ships he could scramble together, Starfleet don't have a monopoly on spaceships. He had tons of diplomatic connections with other races, he could've called in favours all over the galaxy. There's no way he would've just popped off to his vineyard with his favourite 2 Romulans and just left the rest to die. My husband disagrees.

pixelburp · 03-03-2020 12:30PM

It's entirely possible that just to get the armada put together, all those favours and connections Picard likely had were already called on; can't have been easy just getting the cooperation & coordination needed in the first place without compromises, so when the Martian attack happened & the key pillar in the whole enterprise stepped away, said favours probably collapsed too.

Given the major powers of the Quadrant were still nursing wounds after the Dominion War, which itself would have involved favours and use of political capital, I've never assumed there were enough starships to begin with. Many warships would have stayed on the frontline, if only to make sure the Founders didn't renege on the treaty, or some other power made a play for the Alpha Quadrant. Not like after WW2 all the soldiers went home; many of them stayed on the front-lines of the Cold War borders, not least Berlin famously. The economic war footing was ramped down too, shipyards and factories scaled back 'cos of a demand no longer there.

Evade · 03-03-2020 12:37PM

Mars was attacked a decade after the Dominion War ended most of those wounds should be scarred over if not outright healed.

pixelburp · 03-03-2020 12:45PM

Evade wrote: »

Mars was attacked a decade after the Dominion War ended most of those wounds should be scarred over if not outright healed.

Don't agree, 10 years is nothing on a galactic scale, no reason to think anyone was willing or capable to divert forces along the likely still fragile borders between everyone, for the sake of an admittedly seismic event. Crews, populations, economies would still be reeling from that War, along with any other local issues that hadn't changed like the Maquis, Borg, local ethnic conflicts or whatever.

In Britain, rationing didn't formerly end until 1954, nearly 10 years after ww2 ended (IIRC, in fact it came back briefly during the Suez Crisis). And the Soviets might have been the West's allies during that war, but once the common enemy disappeared, existing enmities returned, guns aimed at each other again. The Berlin AirLift happened 3 years after the war ended.

In a less warlike situation, it took Ireland 10 years for the economy to recover from the 2008 crash - and some would debate if we've even achieved it at all. Wars collapse economies of those on the frontline, no way the Quadrant was in a fit state to handle a refugee crisis.

Evade · 03-03-2020 01:36PM

I don't think any of those economic examples can really be analogous in a universe with replicators.

What borders are left to seriously guard? Klingons are allies again, Cardassia were only really a threat with the Dominion, same goes for the Breen, and the last time we saw the Romulan Empire Picard's conversation with Donatra hinted there was a willingness for peace plus they're the ones in need of aid. Maybe, maybe, the Tholians but they mostly keep to themselves, or the Sheliac, but they have 70 years of bureaucratic red tape before they can even table a proposal to consider the option of issuing a declaration of war.

Rawr · 04-03-2020 09:07AM

Evade wrote: »

or the Sheliac, but they have 70 years of bureaucratic red tape before they can even table a proposal to consider the option of issuing a declaration of war.

(Begins process of applying for a form to submit a proposal to +1 this comment, in accordance with Section 233, Paragraph 5 of the Boardsie Acknowledgement (Amendment) Treaty)

AMKC · 07-03-2020 12:01AM

I am hoping the first season of Picard ends up with Picard and his motley crew in a proper ship like say a Miranda, Nova, Nebula or hell even an Oberth class ship. Actually I have always liked the Oberth class ships even if they are small.

pixelburp · 07-03-2020 12:07AM

AMKC wrote: »

I am hoping the first season of Picard ends up with Picard and his motley crew in a proper ship like say a Miranda, Nova, Nebula or hell even an Oberth class ship. Actually I have always liked the Oberth class ships even if they are small.

I don't like the design, but it makes narrative sense for a 2, 3 or 4 man craft to effectively be a glorified shuttle craft. I like the interior TBH if not the exterior. Feels like a suped up shuttle. Not like there weren't plenty of Trek episodes centred around the shuttles as primary mode of transport. A proper "class" of ship would need more extras, more sets, etc when it's not really that kind of show. As much as it'd be nice to see a Fed ship zipping about, the ...whatever the name of it is, suits the purpose.

AMKC · 07-03-2020 12:09AM

Stark wrote: »

Wasn't a matter of just "going against orders". How do you migrate billions of people without the help of the Federation/Starfleet?

The shipyards on Mars were involved in a massive shipbuilding program to make the migration feasible. With the shipyards destroyed, they didn't have enough remaining ships to continue the mission and keep the Federation running at the same time.

Surly it was silly of them to try to build all the ships at the one shipyard anyway. I certainly think it was. They should have had 2 or 3 even 4 shipyards building them. Then the likelihood of them all getting destroyed would have been less.

_Kaiser_ · 07-03-2020 10:08AM

AMKC wrote: »

Surly it was silly of them to try to build all the ships at the one shipyard anyway. I certainly think it was. They should have had 2 or 3 even 4 shipyards building them. Then the likelihood of them all getting destroyed would have been less.

You have to remember that this was Mars in the heart of the Federation (Sol). Also with the end of the Dominion war they wouldn't have expected a threat, certainly not from within or on that scale.

Personally I always thought that the Breen attack on Earth during the latter stages of the war was strange. No cloaking devices but even allowing for the weapon they had, they've presumably managed to cut through multiple layers of significantly increased defences and systems with sufficient strength remaining to attack Earth, and yet they didn't irradiate the planet before they were chased off?

Hmmm..

Evade · 07-03-2020 11:28AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You have to remember that this was Mars in the heart of the Federation (Sol). Also with the end of the Dominion war they wouldn't have expected a threat, certainly not from within or on that scale.

Personally I always thought that the Breen attack on Earth during the latter stages of the war was strange. No cloaking devices but even allowing for the weapon they had, they've presumably managed to cut through multiple layers of significantly increased defences and systems with sufficient strength remaining to attack Earth, and yet they didn't irradiate the planet before they were chased off?

Hmmm..

It was a Doolittle raid. The point wasn't to do any real damage it was to show they could strike anywhere. We'd already seen that Starfleet was reluctant to pull forces away from Earth during the war (the plan to retake DS9) and after the Breen attack I wonder how many ships were pulled back from the front line to guard against another Breen raid.

Star Trek: Picard - Amazon Prime [** POSSIBLE SPOILERS **]

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Star Trek: Picard - Amazon Prime [ POSSIBLE SPOILERS ]