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CC3 -- Why I believe that a third option is needed for climate change

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    posidonia wrote: »

    I don't know, but by some form of transport would be my guess. Is that possible?

    Fuelled by solar panels no doubt, given his holier than thou approach, and not just another jet-setting, multi-millionaire preaching from ivory towers to the poor and huddled masses.

    https://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/david-attenborough-net-worth/

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    Fuelled by solar panels no doubt, given his holier than thou approach, and not just another jet-setting, multi-millionaire preaching from ivory towers to the poor and huddled masses.

    https://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/david-attenborough-net-worth/


    Got bored with make sick insinuations have you? You're not actually an walrus expert either it seems...Time to change tack and go back to accusing people of hypocrisy I see...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    posidonia wrote: »
    Got bored with make sick insinuations have you? You're not actually an walrus expert either it seems...Time to change tack and go back to accusing people of hypocrisy I see...

    More bored with your lack of answers and evasive methods.

    I'm accused here of linking to 'skeptical' think tanks, yet I am not the one on here that is prone to hysteria about every single weather event that can be, and has been, explained by basic meteorology on this very thread, even though I read tons of peer-reviewed scientific lit on a regular basis...apparently.

    I really do wonder who should 'open their mind' a bit more.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,168 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Yeah posidonia why cant you open your mind like Oneiric to the fact that David Attenborough and the BBC Earth teams have been making nature documentaries all these decades in order to "get off" sexually on the suffering of animals in nature? Its the next Jimmy Saville scandal, only totally sane free thinkers like Oneiric can see it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,223 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    More bored with your lack of answers and evasive methods.

    I'm accused here of linking to 'skeptical' think tanks, yet I am not the one on here that is prone to hysteria about every single weather event that can be, and has been, explained by basic meteorology on this very thread, even though I read tons of peer-reviewed scientific lit on a regular basis...apparently.

    I really do wonder who should 'open their mind' a bit more.
    You read so much that that you confuse meteorology with climatology

    Every single weather event will have meteorological explanations even if the globe warms by 20c next week

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Akrasia wrote: »
    You read so much that that you confuse meteorology with climatology

    Every single weather event will have meteorological explanations even if the globe warms by 20c next week

    I confuse nothing.

    When it comes to groundedness, it is my feet, and clearly not yours, that are on it. Your ill-informed hyperbole over a low pressure system just last week is enough to reveal that. But I ask, if you are so heavily armed with the knowledge of a thousand peer-reviewed climate papers, why you go all ape-**** over single weather events and attribute them not to meteorology, but actual climate change? Yet for all of this knowledge, you seem poorly schooled in even recent historical weather events.

    And just so you know for again, low pressures will deepen rapidly with they detached themselves from the jet-stream and move into colder air masses, and the colder the air mass it moves into, the more likely it will be to bomb...

    Basic science..

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Thargor wrote: »
    Yeah posidonia why cant you open your mind like Oneiric to the fact that David Attenborough and the BBC Earth teams have been making nature documentaries all these decades in order to "get off" sexually on the suffering of animals in nature? Its the next Jimmy Saville scandal, only totally sane free thinkers like Oneiric can see it.

    17601772.gif

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,168 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Wow.

    Did you forget you just posted this or something? I honestly think you should print that out and show it to a psychiatrist tbh, its completely deranged.
    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    Quite disgusting in fact that they use the real suffering of animals (which he and his camera crew seem to get off on filming) to cause as much distress to his audience, many of which are children and young adults, as possible. In my opinion, these 'nature documentary' types seem to enjoy filming the suffering of animals to an obscene degree, because nobody in their right mind could stand there with a camera and be so utterly detached to the horror of what they are filming as to be able to keep that camera pin point focused on it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,223 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    I confuse nothing.
    Yes Mr Trump


    Your ‘basic science’ is grossly simplistic. Weather is far more complex than that and it is a chaotic system where everything is causally linked to prior events and initial conditions.

    I’ll let the experts talk for me
    The UK Met Office know a lot more about weather than you or I
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26084625
    Dame Julia Slingo said the variable UK climate meant there was "no definitive answer" to what caused the storms.
    "But all the evidence suggests there is a link to climate change," she added.
    "There is no evidence to counter the basic premise that a warmer world will lead to more intense daily and hourly rain events."
    That was from 2014 btw, the evidence has only gotten stronger since then

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    So what have we learned from yesterday's exchange?

    1. You can dismiss the claims of 'sceptics' by simply calling them sceptics. No refute of their claims necessary.

    2. 'Experts' have ample time to dismiss what they must view as high profile sceptics, yet the climate alarmist nonsense we read and hear about on a near daily basis goes unchallenged, coz they are 'too busy doing science'. 2 + 2 = 3.

    3. Distressing and disgusting images of unbearable animal suffering is OK if filmed by and used for propagandist purposes by the 'right' people in order upset children and adults alike as much as possible.

    4. It is something akin to blasphemy to even dare question the methods of globe trotting millionaires.

    5. Evasiveness is the name of the game when nothing of substance is to be have.

    New Moon



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    'No definitive answer.. but all the evidence points towards..

    Classic newspeak there.

    If you are familiar with H.H Lamb, you'd know how he spoke of a huge increase in storm activity over the north Atlantic in the decades before the onset of last ice age (or was it the 'little ice age, I can't remember) and the explanation is simple: Colder air masses moving further south from their mean position created/create the conditions for more explosive cyclogenisis to more easily develop.

    The winter of 2013/2014, to which no doubt she is referencing, was a winter with a pretty straight forward zonal flow. I thought climate change was to bring about a more wavier jet stream? Or is a straight running jet stream now part of the climate change model also? Also, global/NH temps in the winter of 2013/2014 were not far above average and if I remember correctly, were the lowest in some time.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,223 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    So what have we learned from yesterday's exchange?

    1. You can dismiss the claims of 'sceptics' by simply calling them sceptics. No refute of their claims necessary.
    I have learned that you will believe any claims you want to believe even if they’re from sources who are proven to be unreliable

    You have Zero regard for the integrity of your sources and so you can pick and choose between all of the bullsh1t that fills up the Internet on a daily basis and demand that others waste their time trying to do your thinking for you ( a waste of time as we have seen on this thread, debunking false claims made by known liars gets ignored)
    2. 'Experts' have ample time to dismiss what they must view as high profile sceptics, yet the climate alarmist nonsense we read and hear about on a near daily basis goes unchallenged, coz they are 'too busy doing science'. 2 + 2 = 3.
    You hear climate alarmist nonsense because you choose to go to curated news sources run by people trying to discredit climate science

    You choose to fill your head with this nonsense because of the way you consume your media

    Where did you come across that video by Susan Crockford?
    3. Distressing and disgusting images of unbearable animal suffering is OK if filmed by and used for propagandist purposes by the 'right' people in order upset children and adults alike as much as possible.
    You would prefer if the truth of what is happening in nature was not reported?
    This is genuinely the worst thing I have seen you say
    4. It is something akin to blasphemy to even dare question the methods of globe trotting millionaires. [\quote] you mean your last refuge of calling everyone a hypocrite if they are in favor of acting on climate change but still consume resources??

    It’s obvious what you’re trying to do
    5. Evasiveness is the name of the game when nothing of substance is to be have.

    Cause calling people hypocrites, religious and alarmist and evasive are very substantive things to say....

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    So what have we learned from yesterday's exchange?

    1. You can dismiss the claims of 'sceptics' by simply calling them sceptics. No refute of their claims necessary.

    2. 'Experts' have ample time to dismiss what they must view as high profile sceptics, yet the climate alarmist nonsense we read and hear about on a near daily basis goes unchallenged, coz they are 'too busy doing science'. 2 + 2 = 3.

    3. Distressing and disgusting images of unbearable animal suffering is OK if filmed by and used for propagandist purposes by the 'right' people in order upset children and adults alike as much as possible.

    4. It is something akin to blasphemy to even dare question the methods of globe trotting millionaires.

    5. Evasiveness is the name of the game when nothing of substance is to be have.


    So, you've dropped the idea Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer have you?


    Or would you care to repeat that deranged slur?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    This is even more damning :( Possibility that the crew were at least partly to blame for the miserable deaths of those animals:



    No definitive answer of course, but all of the evidence points towards...


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Cause calling people hypocrites, religious and alarmist and evasive is are very substantive things to say....

    They are when they're true.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    This is even more damning :( Possibility that the crew were at least partly to blame for the miserable deaths of those animals:


    /QUOTE]

    And how are you going to blame Attenborough or cameramen for the 1978 walrus deaths? I'm sure you can find a way to do that...


    Btw, are you going to repeat your deranged insinuation that Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    posidonia wrote: »

    And how are you going to blame Attenborough or cameramen for the 1978 walrus deaths? I'm sure you can find a way to do that...

    I'm not ruling out the possibility that that 1978 footage is fake. I mean, the Arctic was very, very cold in 1978 and there was lots and lots and lots of ice. So much ice in fact, that this was the height of the 'coming ice age' climate scare.

    I note though that you haven't refuted anything claimed in that latest video, which I will take that at least you do not rule out the possibility that Sir Attonborough might not be quite the honest chap that he would have us believe.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    I'm not ruling out the possibility that that 1978 footage is fake. I mean, the Arctic was very, very cold in 1978 and there was lots and lots and lots of ice. So much ice in fact, that this was the height of the 'coming ice age' climate scare.

    I note though that you haven't refuted anything claimed in that latest video, which I will take that at least you do not rule out the possibility that Sir Attonborough might not be quite the honest chap that he would have us believe.


    Do you still think David Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer or do you take back that vile insinuation?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    This is just getting worse and worse :(:(

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    This is just getting worse and worse :(:(





    Do you still think David Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer or do you take back that vile insinuation?

    Do you think feeding a polar bear is a safe thing for a cameraman to do?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    This is just getting worse and worse :(:(


    The ends justify the means with the greens and the media. They don't care as long as their agenda sells.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Danno wrote: »
    The ends justify the means with the greens and the media. They don't care as long as their agenda sells.


    Huh? You also think a cameraman can safely feed a polar bear? Really???



    Perhaps you also agree with Oneiric that David Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    posidonia wrote: »
    Do you still think David Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer or do you take back that vile insinuation?

    Do you think feeding a polar bear is a safe thing for a cameraman to do?

    The animals are just a pawns for him. His documentary style has slipped over the last 15 years or so. He changed from educational style to preaching.
    I’d rather listen to Jeremy Irons now.

    Animal plight has made Attenborough richer. His carbon footprint is larger than mine will ever be. It’s a double edged sword when you preach.

    Animal documentaries as a whole have tanked. Creative editing is used to portray nature as a fun loving life, when in fact life is brutal. We are made to feel sad for animals lose their life, when this is part of the natural system.
    I don’t like to watch animals starve, but I also except that animals starved and has done for millions of years.

    Attenborough Ties any animal suffering to AGW. Much like our weather forecasters.
    AGW fanatics like Arkasia think pre 1880 we lived in the garden of Eden.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Nabber wrote: »
    The animals are just a pawns for him. His documentary style has slipped over the last 15 years or so. He changed from educational style to preaching.
    I’d rather listen to Jeremy Irons now.

    Animal plight has made Attenborough richer. His carbon footprint is larger than mine will ever be. It’s a double edged sword when you preach.

    Animal documentaries as a whole have tanked. Creative editing is used to portray nature as a fun loving life, when in fact life is brutal. We are made to feel sad for animals lose their life, when this is part of the natural system.
    I don’t like to watch animals starve, but I also except that animals starved and has done for millions of years.

    Attenborough Ties any animal suffering to AGW. Much like our weather forecasters.
    AGW fanatics like Arkasia think pre 1880 we lived in the garden of Eden.


    I guess it's pretty easy to verbally attack a 90 year old.



    Anyway, cut to the chase - do you also think Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer?



    Further, do you think cameramen can safely feed polar bears?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,261 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    posidonia wrote: »
    So, you've dropped the idea Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer have you?


    Or would you care to repeat that deranged slur?
    posidonia wrote: »


    And how are you going to blame Attenborough or cameramen for the 1978 walrus deaths? I'm sure you can find a way to do that...


    Btw, are you going to repeat your deranged insinuation that Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer?
    posidonia wrote: »
    Do you still think David Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer or do you take back that vile insinuation?
    posidonia wrote: »
    Do you still think David Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer or do you take back that vile insinuation?
    posidonia wrote: »

    Perhaps you also agree with Oneiric that David Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer?
    posidonia wrote: »


    Anyway, cut to the chase - do you also think Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer?

    Further, do you think cameramen can safely feed polar bears?

    Jesus Christ, what are you like?! That's about the extent of your posting here. You've never made even one scientific contribution to this thread, which is in the Science forum, in case you didn't know. You've no interest in Science at all but are here merely as antagonist. Oriel and Coles packed their bags. Maybe it's time you did the same.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Jesus Christ, what are you like?! That's about the extent of your posting here. You've never made even one scientific contribution to this thread, which is in the Science forum, in case you didn't know. You've no interest in Science at all but are here merely as antagonist. Oriel and Coles packed their bags. Maybe it's time you did the same.
    I only want to see if people think Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer.


    I ask again because, while its a simple question, some people here seem to find it difficult to answer. Are you one of them?


    Oh, and don't get at me - I didn't start making sick, baseless, libelous attacks on David Attenborough so address your sneers to those that did.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    And here's some science.

    1

    2

    3


    4

    5

    6

    Get busy rubbishing it - because it's clear you don't like the look of the actual science (observations and evidence).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,261 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    posidonia wrote: »
    I only want to see if people think Attenborough 'gets off' by watching animals suffer.


    I ask again because, while its a simple question, some people here seem to find it difficult to answer. Are you one of them?


    Oh, and don't get at me - I didn't start making sick, baseless, libelous attacks on David Attenborough so address your sneers to those that did.

    There you go asking me now. What is your deal?

    Attenborough is a big boy and doesn't need someone on an Irish forum to defend him. Or do you actually think he reads Boards? He has done some excellent work down through the decades on the field in which he's qualified, zoology and geology, however he's joined the evergrowing list of those who see climate change as a good pulpit to shout from. His claims of late have not been based on the latest scientific observations, yet he gets to air them because of who he is. The Arctic is not losing ice. That's a fact. He says it is. That's a lie. Simple.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,261 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    posidonia wrote: »
    And here's some science.

    1

    2

    3


    4

    5

    6

    Get busy rubbishing it - because it's clear you don't like the look of the actual science (observations and evidence).

    No, that's you just posting links (of stuff which has already been challenged down through the now countless threads here and elsewhere, so no need to cover old ground). When I rubbish something I do so using a scientific argument based on evidence, when you do it's usually based on a personal attack. Akrasia, to be fair to him, does try to back up his nonsense with what he thinks is science, so at least he puts in the effort. You, on the other hand, are more interested in adding question marks and triple spaces between lines than adding anything of remote value.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 7,149 Mod ✭✭✭✭pistolpetes11


    Going to close this for a bit , its gone away from the point


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,993 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Hello, we are back (for a while) ... I asked if I could post an update on my bogged down project to get Toronto data fully up for discussion over on Net-weather. It has been a marathon and while I knew it was going to take weeks, a few issues came up with data since 2003 when the precip was being measured in two different styles and time frames, and even worse since mid-2017 when the second option disappeared from the website leaving me with no daily snowfall numbers at the location (but daily snowdepth reports together with precip, and a fairly dense net of other climate stations in Toronto as a guide).

    I am hoping that when I contact Environment Canada with the results (in about a week perhaps) they might be able to enlighten me about the details of the timing issues (suspecting some precip data changed from the long-standing calendar day to 0800h-0800h reporting) as well as a few other questions that arose about early practices (1840 to 1848 mostly) that sometimes appear as though accumulated rainfall gets into the data looking like daily specific values.

    Anyway, the data posting is very near the finish line (I am basically in sight of the stadium anyway) with just daily precip records for September to December left to post, plus a summary already available of dry spells in the 180 years. Then all the data with monthly rankings will be up and available, and I can link to my massive excel file of the data which has many graphs to illustrate various trends and outcomes.

    There will also need to be posts created for modified temperature rankings with the urban heat island removed from the trend. I have made a start on that in house and found that while it narrows the gap between recent and not so recent warmest months and in some cases brings back into top spots some of the eclipsed 1920-1950 era values, it only tweaks the order overall because most of the colder half of the rankings were from pre-heat island times and remain below the adjusted values of the more recent cold months, although, and somewhat remarkably, the coldest December would now be 1989 (third in raw data), the coldest Febs would be nearly a three-way tie of 1885, 1934 and 2015, and the coldest January top five would see 1994 moving from fourth to second coldest. This would be after a relatively modest urban heat island progressive downward adjustment starting at zero in 1881 and working its way up to 1.2 by 1980 (not increased thereafter as large city urban heat islands flatten out once the city expands beyond a 50 km diameter). To set the urban heat island's intermediate values I have compared two long-period outlying and entirely rural locations with the Toronto data to establish trends, and checked the research literature on magnitudes of heat islands (something that I studied in my university days and even made a contribution towards) -- the general underlying theme is that the heat islands take off with a fast start at around 10,000 to 50,000 populations then slow down in reverse exponential form after about 100,000 (which Toronto had reached before 1901) but there's the issue of how older data might respond in the earlier stages of modern urban heating parameters (different styles of home heating, fewer vehicles per capita on roads etc), so have come up with a somewhat delayed total response model that blends the traditional reverse exponential with a more linear paradigm to account for the increase in vehicle traffic and generally higher ambient home heating standards (warmer houses and businesses can emit more heat into the heat island).

    Picture for example the typical Toronto neighbourhood around turn of century (1900), houses mainly heated by coal or even wood stoves, not oil or natural gas, and few if any people owning a car, just a few trolleys and cars on roads, so very few paved surfaces. On the other hand, Toronto has a considerable "urban forest" and I suspect that it is largely second growth with perhaps an interval around 1880 to 1900 when it was substantially removed at least within a few miles of the weather station. There was no university campus until around 1890, so I suspect there may have been a lot of open space with construction sites not too far from the pre-1908 location which would be 1.2 km south of the later (1908 to 2003) location. This may be partly why there's a bit of a spike in annual maximum temperatures around 1916 to 1922 which is actually the warmest seven year average of that statistic (1933 to 1939 very similar, later spikes in 1950s and 2010s not quite as high). I will have that graph available for posting. The interval from 1978 to 1986 had almost as low an average for the statistic as the coldest stretches of the 19th century. The maximum never broke 35 C (95 F) from 1978 to 1986 except for one day at 96 F in 1983. The long-term average of annual maximum works out to 34 C (93 F) and some intervals exceed 36, but it retreated to about 32 in the period 1978 to 1986.

    The adjusted ranks of monthly and annual temperatures can be better used than the existing raw data but even that tends to show quite clearly that the main episode of warming at Toronto took place around 1890 and rather quickly, almost a phase change during a short period of time perhaps 1889 to 1893 after which the data start to look very similar to the modern period.

    Some other parameters show trends that are probably at variance with conventional climate change assumptions but may still be significant. In general terms, rainfall started out very high in the 1840s, drifted down to its lowest point by the 1870s (but that partly because this was the coldest interval so more winter season precip fell as snow than rain), bounced back to long-term average oscillating tendencies from about the 1880s to 1920s, went into drought mode in the 1930s, recovered from that back to the long-term average 1950s-1970s, hit a notable wet spell mid-1980s, somewhat drier through 1990s into mid-2000s decade, then has been steadily approaching a return to the wetter mode of the 1840s in most recent years. While it has some way to go yet to rival 1840-44 (the wettest five year interval) it is clearly wetter in recent years than what I recall from my younger days when I lived in that region.

    Unfortunately the station stopped recording sunshine hours some time around the 1980s, still searching for any data to extend a printed document I have of sunshine hours 1882 to 1967. For some unknown reason, EC with their very extensive climate data base ignore the existence of sunshine hours as if nobody had ever measured them. There used to be tables of daily and monthly values in the printed forms of the monthly climate bulletins that are essentially the source of the internet data base otherwise. And I suspect partly from my own memory of weather trends that sunshine hours peaked around 1962 to 1964 and steadily declined after that back to the cloudier mode that was evident in the 1880s and 1890s. This may have some connection to jet contrails spreading out, I know this has been discussed in the literature as a possible cause of enhanced cloudiness.

    Another trend that is fairly stark is that recent temperature increases are entirely nocturnal (at Toronto anyway). There has been a 2:1 shift in ratios of record high mins to record high maxes. The number of new record high mins since 1970 is almost two thirds of the data set, whereas the number of new record highs is barely one third and is also barely above the random expectation for 53 of 180 years of data. At the risk of generalizing too coarsely, the situation seems to be that after a burst of multiple record highs set in the high-variability 1970s, the pace slowed to a crawl in that colder spell, resumed for a time (1987-91 set a fairly robust number), and has oscillated around random since that. And I could say that almost entirely the new records are either (a) in the winter shoulder seasons Nov-Dec and late Feb-Mar, or (b) picking off the weakest of the herd of older records. I can only find three "older" record maxima that I would consider robust that have been edged out (in each case by about 1 degree). But with the record high minima, it seems that any mid-level warm spell nowadays will threaten the existing set of record mins. It has become typical for recent heat waves (which are a regular feature of the climate) to produce days that are 2-4 deg below record values and overnight lows that are close to the record values. In general terms, the old heat wave standard of about 35/21 (95/70) has turned into 33/23 (92/73) with more cloud and higher humidity levels. The humidex values are probably similar. There are exceptions but that seems to be the background theme of the modern summer climate. This blends well with the observation that there has been an increase in summer rainfall too, not by number of days though (that statistic seems to be constant).

    Despite the above, the actual number of new record high rainfall values is very close to random expectation and the maximum values are almost identical to the previous ones. For example, the highest one-day rainfall in the data set was 97 mm in July 1897; now the second highest one is 96 mm from July 2013. The highest January rainfall of about 63 mm (1843) was recently duplicated in January 2020 (but before that had not been approached within 20 mm). The same story is told by rainfall data in other months. I am working my way through the autumn months now and the number of extra tropical storm events associated with record daily rainfalls is remarkable even going back well into the mid-19th century. This trend has continued but I certainly see no evidence that it has increased -- it seems that even in the colder climate of the 19th century, when other pressure pattern studies would show clear evidence of a more southward jet stream position than in the 20th century, the same number of tropical systems managed to find their way to the Great Lakes region, and would then dump record rainfalls (many of them are in the 50-100 mm range). The total number over the entire data would be upwards of 50, and I have less evidence available for the 1840s than other decades. So by September almost half the daily records have some association with tropical remnants. This continues to mid-October then dies off by early November. The number early in the season is small, two cases in June, none detected in July, then a sprinkling in August.

    Winter snowfall is certainly in a declining mode. Toronto is not in the climate zone of the U.S. northeast coastal cities where it is sometimes claimed that recent winters have seen increases (and those are due to climate change). Neither of those claims really survives a rigorous test anyway, but what is certainly true at Toronto is that with the notable increase in winter shoulder season temperatures has come a reduction in snowfall then also. The reduction is less evident in later December and January or the first half of February. Overall the number of new snowfall record values is about two thirds of random expectation since 1970. Despite that, there was a conflicting signal around the period of 1968 to 1976 for increased numbers of unseasonable snowfalls. New marks were set for latest in season 25 cm and 10 cm snowfalls (Apr 1975 and 1976), and earliest 10 cm (Oct 1969). So the 1970s are not really claimed to be a mainstream portion of the recent warming anyway, but what apparently took place in the 20th century warming was a relapse to mid-19th century (with a full urban heat island modification factor) for about a decade and a half, then with the stronger El Nino events around 1982, 1990, 1998, 2006 and more recently, pulses of warmth that have brought things back to about where they stood in peak warming times like 1916-22, the 1930s and 1946-59.

    I am starting to think of the 1960s now as a period when the mid-20th century warmth began to flicker a bit, when it was "on" there could be record values even up to monthly maxima (May, June and October all set records in the sunny years of 1962-64). But the warming was not on as frequently as in the early 1950s for example. Then it went into high-variability mode on an epic scale (some of the ups and downs of the 1970s are stupendous and I was lucky to have lived through them in more ways than one). I've thought more than once that if we just had the 1970s over again the climate change lobby would go berserk with angst, if they think this rather damped down recent climate is pushing the limits (which I consider a faulty assumption based on ignorance of the data, hence this project), then they would really "freak out" if the 1970s came around again. Consider for example, April 1976, a week of record warmth followed by a heavy snowstorm.

    Nowadays if one day touches 20 C in April there is no end to the "we will all die" chatter, and if it were to snow even an inch I am sure people would be told that it was out-of-control climate change at work. From all available evidence, I would have to imagine that the average politician, media reporter, or even climate change student, would score about 10 out of 100 on any quiz of true or false on past climate statistics. I imagine a quiz with questions like this: True or false, the majority of days above 35 C were before you were born.

    You would need to be 81 years old (in Toronto) to answer "false" to that question.

    Not sure if we'll keep the thread open or not, but I did want to mention that while I value open discussion and free speech, at the same time I saw no useful purpose to much of the off-topic intrusions (the sidereal day stuff in particular) and if we do continue I think anything that far off the straight line should be eliminated. In the absence of a lot of material on topic from myself, the discussion rather predictably reverted to the default values of AGW vs skeptic rhetoric which might be worth a separate thread somewhere else; the whole point of my new perspective being that perhaps the best response to the question of climate change is to assume warming and work from there. I don't think there's anything meaningful that we can do to alter the outcome because I feel like two thirds or more of the climate change response is naturally driven anyway so that our attempts to modify our portion of the complex outcome will be negligible even though perhaps harming the economy by trying (as we are seeing in Canada recently, overly hysterical responses to the situation are crippling economic planning and ripping apart a rather precarious social fabric with no winners, just each faction losing). The experience of the former Yugoslavia can teach us that in a breakdown of civil society and widespread factional fighting, there can be an outcome where everyone loses and nobody wins.

    If that's what the AGW brigade want, then so be it. It's not what I want.


This discussion has been closed.
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