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What have we come to

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Comments

  • #2642
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,752 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    The reality is that people will hold SF and the SD to a much higher standard of public service than they have for any party hereto.

    And when and IF they get into government and only half the programme for government (whatever that will look like) gets underway, those same posters and media personalities will be jumping up and down about it.
    They should expect a YUGE roll eyes from me and anybody paying attention today.

    Why would they hold SF to a higher standard?

    If anything it’s the opposite, everyone thinks they will fall flat on their face and be a disaster, so if they can actually do a decent job most people will be surprised


  • #2643
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,752 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Bowie wrote: »
    That's the advantage FF/FG always have over every other party, (specifically junior coalition parties). FF/FG have bigger core bases who will vote for them no matter what and a floating voter that will not expect much of anything from either of them except keeping the lights on, most of the time.

    If that was true then FG wouldn’t have had the worst vote sine the 40s and FF are way down as well

    The fact is FF and FG have some good politicians so they will get voted in for that area,

    Throwing out comments saying people just vote for the name is BS, really the only place I see that is Kerry and some of the other independents....people have no idea what they do but vote them in anyway....the 2 boys below in Kerry have actually no manifesto or any sort of info what they will provide Kerry with but voted in blindly


  • #2644
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,046 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    If that was true then FG wouldn’t have had the worst vote sine the 40s and FF are way down as well

    If it wasn't true, FF wouldn't have got back into power less than 10 years after they crashed the country.

    There is a cohort of of people in this country that will vote for their team, no matter what they do.

    It is changing slowly, which is a good thing.


  • #2645
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,752 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Tony EH wrote: »
    If it wasn't true, FF wouldn't have got back into power less than 10 years after they crashed the country.

    There is a cohort of of people in this country that will vote for their team, no matter what they do.

    It is changing slowly, which is a good thing.


    Based on what?


  • #2646
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,046 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    What based on what?


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  • #2647
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    If that was true then FG wouldn’t have had the worst vote sine the 40s and FF are way down as well

    The fact is FF and FG have some good politicians so they will get voted in for that area,

    Throwing out comments saying people just vote for the name is BS, really the only place I see that is Kerry and some of the other independents....people have no idea what they do but vote them in anyway....the 2 boys below in Kerry have actually no manifesto or any sort of info what they will provide Kerry with but voted in blindly

    FF got support in the 20's percentage wise after melting down the economy.
    FG oversaw and exacerbated numerous crises and still came in third.
    Compare that to Labour, the Greens, PD's etc.
    We are seeing FG reach down to almost the 'vote for FG no matter what' numbers, almost, as we saw with FF in 2011.

    There is always that. Speaking generally here.

    I disagree. Who on earth would have voted for FF in 2011, aside from the odd person on local issues? It's the floating voters and falling numbers of FF/FG core support that bodes well for the future.

    It's absolutely not. There are FF/FG families I've met them. I've seen documentaries about them. I've heard them talk in such a manner, 'I'm a Fianna Fail man, like my father and his father before him'.
    Could say the same for Lowry and others, yes.

    All I'm saying is FF/FG have a larger core vote and it's not based on performance IMO.


  • #2648
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,464 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Bowie wrote: »
    You seem to let government off the hook. Therefore the next shower won't need to achieve anything and you'll accept that. That's my read Bren.
    Who you blame is a side issue.

    Your read is incorrect Mr B, what I am saying is however is that the total blame is not on the Govt.

    The vested interests have responsibility too.

    The Unions, the Management, the workers, the patients, the public.

    Everyone has an input in this.

    Imagine if the HSE decided on a course of action,as they have done, and generated a serious strike.

    Imagine the pressure the Govt would come under from the public irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the issue.

    There are great people in the HSE but blaming the Govt. for everything shows a complete misunderstanding about how stuff works and a perception from the public that no matter what they want they should get doesn’t help at all.


    Lot of folk around these territories need, in my opinion, to evaluate the issues here and look at things in a more rounded and educated way.


  • #2649
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,752 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Bowie wrote: »
    FF got support in the 20's percentage wise after melting down the economy.
    FG oversaw and exacerbated numerous crises and still came in third.
    Compare that to Labour, the Greens, PD's etc.
    We are seeing FG reach down to almost the 'vote for FG no matter what' numbers, almost, as we saw with FF in 2011.

    There is always that. Speaking generally here.

    I disagree. Who on earth would have voted for FF in 2011, aside from the odd person on local issues? It's the floating voters and falling numbers of FF/FG core support that bodes well for the future.

    It's absolutely not. There are FF/FG families I've met them. I've seen documentaries about them. I've heard them talk in such a manner, 'I'm a Fianna Fail man, like my father and his father before him'.
    Could say the same for Lowry and others, yes.

    All I'm saying is FF/FG have a larger core vote and it's not based on performance IMO.


    I think the only bit of post that makes sense is in bold


  • #2650
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,875 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    Your read is incorrect Mr B, what I am saying is however is that the total blame is not on the Govt.

    The vested interests have responsibility too.

    The Unions, the Management, the workers, the patients, the public.

    Everyone has an input in this.

    Imagine if the HSE decided on a course of action,as they have done, and generated a serious strike.

    Imagine the pressure the Govt would come under from the public irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the issue.

    There are great people in the HSE but blaming the Govt. for everything shows a complete misunderstanding about how stuff works and a perception from the public that no matter what they want they should get doesn’t help at all.


    Lot of folk around these territories need, in my opinion, to evaluate the issues here and look at things in a more rounded and educated way.


    None of these vested interests have implemented the recruitment ban, or decided on a terrible location for the children’s hospital that is hoovering up public funds.

    None of them were responsible for taking medical cards off the disabled.

    The ultimate person in charge is the ultimate person responsible, and that’s the minister for health and the Taoiseach.


  • #2651
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,464 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    None of these vested interests have implemented the recruitment ban, or decided on a terrible location for the children’s hospital that is hoovering up public funds.

    None of them were responsible for taking medical cards off the disabled.

    The ultimate person in charge is the ultimate person responsible, and that’s the minister for health and the Taoiseach.

    Not directly, a chara, not directly.


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  • #2652
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I think the only bit of post that makes sense is in bold

    I didn't assume you were citing from your theses. Please add a link to your bibliography.

    If you are unfamiliar with FF/FG families you are unfamiliar with the crux of Irish politics since before the state existed to present day, IMO.


  • #2653
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,528 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    None of these vested interests have implemented the recruitment ban, or decided on a terrible location for the children’s hospital that is hoovering up public funds.

    None of them were responsible for taking medical cards off the disabled.

    The ultimate person in charge is the ultimate person responsible, and that’s the minister for health and the Taoiseach.

    Agreed, but it's hard to credit that twenty or thirty excessively well paid senior civil servants haven't the intelligents to run the HSE Properly between them. ffs they haven't even figured that there'll be increased demand in december -february


  • #2654
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    Not directly, a chara, not directly.

    So you partially hold the government to account. That's fine. You can understand how it read were we were talking on what a new government might do differently and you start talking about hospital staff and management. They play a role but do not make policy.


  • #2655
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,752 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    None of these vested interests have implemented the recruitment ban, or decided on a terrible location for the children’s hospital that is hoovering up public funds.

    None of them were responsible for taking medical cards off the disabled.

    The ultimate person in charge is the ultimate person responsible, and that’s the minister for health and the Taoiseach.


    So what is the solution?


  • #2656
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    So what is the solution?

    I suggest we elect people to public office to tackle it and if they are woeful try some others.


  • #2657
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,464 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Bowie wrote: »
    So you partially hold the government to account. That's fine. You can understand how it read were we were talking on what a new government might do differently and you start talking about hospital staff and management. They play a role but do not make policy.

    Of course I do, a chara, get this, everybody in the sector is accountable.

    Everyone plays a role,dude, especially those in the public service.

    You need to understand that policy is dictated by resources available and what, in this case, the taxpayer can afford.

    Are you suggesting that irrespective of the income available from the taxpayer that unlimited resources be thrown at the hse?

    You do realise that revenue available for public services is a ‘pie’ which has to be distributed and horsing x amount to one sector means x- that amount is available for everything else.

    Have you ever thought like that?

    Hmmmmm......


  • #2658
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    Of course I do, a chara, get this, everybody in the sector is accountable.

    Everyone plays a role,dude, especially those in the public service.

    You need to understand that policy is dictated by resources available and what, in this case, the taxpayer can afford.

    Are you suggesting that irrespective of the income available from the taxpayer that unlimited resources be thrown at the hse?

    You do realise that revenue available for public services is a ‘pie’ which has to be distributed and horsing x amount to one sector means x- that amount is available for everything else.

    Have you ever thought like that?

    Hmmmmm......

    You're changing tac now Bren.
    The buck stops with the Ministers. How much money and what it's spent on etc.


  • #2659
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,875 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    So what is the solution?

    The solution is complex and requires changes that are to numerous and detailed to list here, but I will tell you what the solution isn’t.


    It isn’t putting the same incompetence back in charge of something they have made a disaster of.


  • #2660
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    Of course I do, a chara, get this, everybody in the sector is accountable.

    Everyone plays a role,dude, especially those in the public service.

    You need to understand that policy is dictated by resources available and what, in this case, the taxpayer can afford.

    Are you suggesting that irrespective of the income available from the taxpayer that unlimited resources be thrown at the hse?

    You do realise that revenue available for public services is a ‘pie’ which has to be distributed and horsing x amount to one sector means x- that amount is available for everything else.

    Have you ever thought like that?

    Hmmmmm......

    https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/health/2020/

    We spend 18.3 billion on health and 21.3 billion on social protection, Brendan. Hardly ignoring the issues one would have thought. In fact we spend 6 billion more than in 2015 on health. I suppose that must be down in part to actually running budget surpluses.

    Complex stuff. Glad I have a PhD in Complicated Economics from Harvard College, Oxford.


  • #2661
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,320 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Brendan Bendar wrote:
    You do realise that revenue available for public services is a ‘pie’ which has to be distributed and horsing x amount to one sector means x- that amount is available for everything else.


    But what about the ability of governments to create money via bonds, or by loans, would this not be a part of the pie also, and not just the availability of funds via revenue?


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  • #2662
    Higgins5473
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭Higgins5473


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/health/2020/

    We spend 18.3 billion on health and 21.3 billion on social protection, Brendan. Hardly ignoring the issues one would have thought. In fact we spend 6 billion more than in 2015 on health. I suppose that must be down in part to actually running budget surpluses.

    Complex stuff. Glad I have a PhD in Complicated Economics from Harvard College, Oxford.

    Johnny, seems you have a 1st class Honours Degree in the Economic school of Idiocy. Here's lesson one in 1st class primary school mathematics combined with some social personal integration, history and science...throwing extra money at something does not resolve it. You and your thick Fine Gael pals need to try and understand this.


  • #2663
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    But what about the ability of governments to create money via bonds, or by loans, would this not be a part of the pie also, and not just the availability of funds via revenue?

    Have you seen our national debt, pal?

    People want everything sorted without having to worry themselves about where the spondulicks are going to come from.


  • #2664
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,320 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    JohnnyFlash wrote:
    Have you seen our national debt, pal?


    Ah shur look, we all know that was all a scam anyway! With record low rates, you d be mad not to tap into it.


  • #2665
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Ah shur look, we all know that was all a scam anyway! With record low rates, you d be mad not to tap into it.

    It’s not something we have much control over. We are beholden to the EU’s Fiscal Stability Treaty.

    It’s the money and budgeting part of government that really appears to confuse some of the lads around here. The limited amount of money and the 40 billion we spend on social and health leaving is with fück all to do lots of other nice things.


  • #2666
    Higgins5473
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭Higgins5473


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    Have you seen our national debt, pal?

    People want everything sorted without having to worry themselves about where the spondulicks are going to come from.

    Irish Times headline reads tomorrow "Boards.ie Higgins5473 solves health crisis".
    Although, you'll have the Independent in your grips first thing in the morning to see whatever muck propaganda they produce next.

    What response would you expect from that question?

    If you want a very quick answer as a start; the Childrens Hospital built elsewhere with different contractors.

    How would you solve the health crisis?


  • #2667
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,320 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    JohnnyFlash wrote:
    It’s not something we have much control over. We are beholden to the EU’s Fiscal Stability Treaty.


    I've a funny feeling this will eventually be revisited in the EU, as we all become a bit more desperate in trying to keep things ticking over in our respected countries


  • #2668
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    Higgins5473 wrote: »
    Irish Times headline reads tomorrow "Boards.ie Higgins5473 solves health crisis".
    Although, you'll have the Independent in your grips first thing in the morning to see whatever muck propaganda they produce next.

    What response would you expect from that question?

    If you want a very quick answer as a start; the Childrens Hospital built elsewhere with different contractors.

    How would you solve the health crisis?

    I’d implement Slaintecare which all parties signed up to. It’s a FG based policy, but ye can have it.

    Where would you have built the hospital and what would it have saved? Don’t be a moaner.


  • #2669
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,243 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    It’s a FG based policy, but ye can have it.
    .

    All party Johnny.
    Social Democrat TD Róisín Shortall founded in June 2016 an all-party “Committee on the Future of Healthcare” following an initiative by the health department with the aim to identify an appropriate approach for establishing universal healthcare in Ireland.[10] The committee was supported by an academic team from Trinity College Dublin to analyse submissions made within 30 public hearings in the course of the public consultation process.[11] In May 2017 the committee published its final report entitled “Committee on the Future of Health, Sláintecare Report”, which specified universal healthcare based on the following definition:


  • #2670
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,752 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Bowie wrote: »
    I suggest we elect people to public office to tackle it and if they are woeful try some others.


    Exactly, so SF have got a big chuck of vote and now are running away from forming a government. It is on their onus to pull a government together....


    What have they done so far? they talked more to the press than to any of the parties


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  • #2671
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    Have you seen our national debt, pal?

    People want everything sorted without having to worry themselves about where the spondulicks are going to come from.

    Yes, FG signed us up to it. Is that not how they saved us?
    No they don't. That's an excuse used by FG supporters, (as in the FG way of conducting government). Ironically Kenny's FG got in on the exact opposite. Tough times and major changes. We've all discussed that and anyone around in 2011 should recall it.


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