Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

kevinandrew · 12-02-2020 6:47pm

EI321 wrote: »

Aer Lingus to reconsider transatlantic flights from Cork.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/aer-lingus-to-reconsider-transatlantic-flights-from-cork-981347.html

Honestly, this this more like Mr Doyle telling the Cork Chamber Business Breakfast what the Cork Chamber Business Breakfast wanted to hear. While I have no doubt Aer Lingus considers every business opportunity available to them, the fact he repeatedly reiterates Cork has major hurdles to overcome before it can happen suggests he was merely entertaining the idea for the audience he had.

What must be glaring Aer Lingus management in the face right now is the need for smaller short haul aircraft, you can't sing the praises of a smaller transatlantic plane without thinking about the opportunities one might bring to the European network as well.

California Dreamer · 12-02-2020 6:54pm

kevinandrew wrote: »

While I have no doubt Aer Lingus considers every business opportunity available to them

What were the Norwegian loads like?

kevinandrew · 12-02-2020 7:00pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

What were the Norwegian loads like?

Don't have the exact peak summer figures to hand but they were reportedly very good in July and August, at least as good as they could be with the load restriction included.

The load factors in the shoulder and winter season were woeful, anywhere from 60% and below. That was for a 2/3 times weekly service.

Locker10a · 12-02-2020 8:26pm

EI321 wrote: »

Aer Lingus to reconsider transatlantic flights from Cork.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/aer-lingus-to-reconsider-transatlantic-flights-from-cork-981347.html

That’s great and all, and I’d be delighted to see this at Cork, but realistically if the 321lr is struggling to take off from Dublin, how would it ever manage from Cork where the runway is shorter

sherology · 12-02-2020 8:50pm

kevinandrew wrote: »

Don't have the exact peak summer figures to hand but they were reportedly very good in July and August, at least as good as they could be with the load restriction included.

The load factors in the shoulder and winter season were woeful, anywhere from 60% and below. That was for a 2/3 times weekly service.

Fares on Norwegian were likely on the lower 'shopping trip' side of the scale... From what I hear regarding Shannon's services... So 'making money/RoI' likely better elsewhere.

A cork-dublin air 'connection' service is lacking... I travel to Dub from LK for flights... It's okay... But lord you spend a lot of time waiting, bus, waiting, plane, waiting, bus etc.when there are very few services from regional airports... Connecting flights become more valuable. Shuttle services from years ago are missing, but I doubt they'll return. Video killed the radio-star (motorway vs. airshuttle)

Van.Bosch · 12-02-2020 9:49pm

kevinandrew wrote: »

Honestly, this this more like Mr Doyle telling the Cork Chamber Business Breakfast what the Cork Chamber Business Breakfast wanted to hear. While I have no doubt Aer Lingus considers every business opportunity available to them, the fact he repeatedly reiterates Cork has major hurdles to overcome before it can happen suggests he was merely entertaining the idea for the audience he had.

What must be glaring Aer Lingus management in the face right now is the need for smaller short haul aircraft, you can't sing the praises of a smaller transatlantic plane without thinking about the opportunities one might bring to the European network as well.

While there is definitely an element of telling them what they want to hear, the fact he specifically called out a Dublin Route is interesting I think.

Tenger · 13-02-2020 12:21pm

I remember similar noises from Willie Walsh back during the IAG takeover process. HE said something along the lines of "I operated into Cork many times as a pilot, its a great airport with great people. We will certainly examine operating TA flights from Cork if the business case is there"

kevinandrew · 13-02-2020 1:53pm

Aer Lingus recommence SNN-JFK today with an A321LR, it’s getting quite a bit of media attention for the occasion.

So two A321LR’s are now based at Shannon with one in Dublin. Does that mean BDL and PHL are operating on alternating days with EWR back to an A330 until the next A321LR arrives?

Aviation2K16 · 13-02-2020 2:03pm

kevinandrew wrote: »

Aer Lingus recommence SNN-JFK today with an A321LR, it’s getting quite a bit of media attention for the occasion.

So two A321LR’s are now based at Shannon with one in Dublin. Does that mean BDL and PHL are operating on alternating days with EWR back to an A330 until the next A321LR arrives?

One of the A321LR will be split between SNN & DUB. It seems the schedules have been adjusted for the next 3 weeks to allow this. PHL & EWR have been reduced from DUB. SNN-BOS has also been reduced. Next week for example SNN - BOS will operate 3 weekly instead of 6 weekly.

DUB will have 2 A321LR from Sun-Wed and SNN will have 2 A321LR from Thu-Sat.

Shannon will have 2 fully based from 04 March. The A321LR will also operate the morning SNN LHR from then as well.

kevinandrew · 13-02-2020 4:18pm

Aviation2K16 wrote: »

One of the A321LR will be split between SNN & DUB. It seems the schedules have been adjusted for the next 3 weeks to allow this. PHL & EWR have been reduced from DUB. SNN-BOS has also been reduced. Next week for example SNN - BOS will operate 3 weekly instead of 6 weekly.

DUB will have 2 A321LR from Sun-Wed and SNN will have 2 A321LR from Thu-Sat.

Shannon will have 2 fully based from 04 March. The A321LR will also operate the morning SNN LHR from then as well.

Thanks for the information! So this was another adjustment due to the ongoing A321LR delays.

Still no sign of EI-LRD making its first flight or the four remaining aircraft due this year either. No wonder the CEO has quite been vocal in his complaints recently.

Captain_Crash · 13-02-2020 4:29pm

kevinandrew wrote: »

Still no sign of EI-LRD making its first flight

Edit.. I got mixed up. EIN made its first flight not LRD.

kevinandrew · 14-02-2020 3:55pm

EI-EIN is now its second flight, likely for customer acceptance.

Interestingly, EI-EIM has yet to leave BRU and is now stored outside the Lufthansa hanger.

Idbatterim · 14-02-2020 7:43pm

I am glad to hear the cork - dublin route could resume , should have been a permanent condition of the iag takeover in my opinion. What a joke, that people that can route via dublin, have to route via the uk or amsterdam etc and that road journey, might be 3 hours etc with no traffic. But what about people who have to face travelling peak hours, I stay beside the airport the night before flights, if its leaving at at time I'd have to hit peak commuter traffic and I live around citywest!!!

Hotblack Desiato · 14-02-2020 7:47pm

It won't happen.

Idbatterim · 14-02-2020 7:48pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It won't happen.

why not with an atr 72 etc?

Jack1985 · 14-02-2020 7:55pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It won't happen.

Okay thanks for the statement we'll take it you know better than the bean counters in EI.

:rolleyes:

Van.Bosch · 14-02-2020 8:41pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I am glad to hear the cork - dublin route could resume , should have been a permanent condition of the iag takeover in my opinion. What a joke, that people that can route via dublin, have to route via the uk or amsterdam etc and that road journey, might be 3 hours etc with no traffic. But what about people who have to face travelling peak hours, I stay beside the airport the night before flights, if its leaving at at time I'd have to hit peak commuter traffic and I live around citywest!!!

Why should it have been a condition of the IAG takeover when it wasn’t in place before the takeover? Have you ever been able to connect TA through Dublin from ORK with EI?

john boye · 14-02-2020 8:54pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Why should it have been a condition of the IAG takeover when it wasn’t in place before the takeover? Have you ever been able to connect TA through Dublin from ORK with EI?

Exactly this. Should they have made them bring back the Shannon stopover too?

Jack1985 · 14-02-2020 10:34pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Have you ever been able to connect TA through Dublin from ORK with EI?

Yes between 2006 and 2011 with RE on behalf of EI. A much different EI Long Haul network then.

x567 · 15-02-2020 12:37am

Idbatterim wrote: »

why not with an atr 72 etc?

This discussion takes me back to the demise of the old short-haul connectors into LHR (e.g. from BHX). I’m pretty sure the planes - a Shorts 360 at the time from BHX - were popular and fairly full, the issue was the value of the LHR slots that they took up, which could be deployed far more profitably on longer, international routes. Are we getting into that space at DUB?

kevinandrew · 15-02-2020 2:08am

Jack1985 wrote: »

Yes between 2006 and 2011 with RE on behalf of EI. A much different EI Long Haul network then.

Was the route ever actually on behalf of Aer Lingus though?

- Aer Arann started the route around 2001?
- Aer Lingus axed the route in 2003 as part of its restructuring.
- Aer Arann reduced it from 9 daily to 3 daily in 2005, a response to Ryanair.

*Aer Lingus Regional is announced in 2010*

- Aer Arann continue to operate ORK-DUB & BHD independently.
- Aer Arann axe the route in August 2010.
- Ryanair axe the route in August 2011.

So the Aer Lingus Regional franchise didn't come into existence until 2010 and the route was axed a matter of months after. The relationship before that was pretty loose, it was likely an interline or code share at most.

https://www.routesonline.com/airports/2486/cork-airport/news/71513/aer-lingus-and-aer-arann-franchise-takes-flight-from-cork-/

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/aer-arann-to-suspend-services-from-cork-to-dublin-and-belfast-126406.html

Jack1985 · 15-02-2020 3:18am

kevinandrew wrote: »

Was the route ever actually on behalf of Aer Lingus though?

- Aer Arann started the route around 2001?
- Aer Lingus axed the route in 2003 as part of its restructuring.
- Aer Arann reduced it from 9 daily to 3 daily in 2005, a response to Ryanair.

*Aer Lingus Regional is announced in 2010*

- Aer Arann continue to operate ORK-DUB & BHD independently.
- Aer Arann axe the route in August 2010.
- Ryanair axe the route in August 2011.

So the Aer Lingus Regional franchise didn't come into existence until 2010 and the route was axed a matter of months after. The relationship before that was pretty loose, it was likely an interline or code share at most.

https://www.routesonline.com/airports/2486/cork-airport/news/71513/aer-lingus-and-aer-arann-franchise-takes-flight-from-cork-/

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/aer-arann-to-suspend-services-from-cork-to-dublin-and-belfast-126406.html

It was a codeshare and a very different EI. Your points are off a bit it was January 2008 when RE started to reduce its ORK-DUB services from peak of nearly hourly. References to FR have really no basis here it doesn't take a monkey to work out 189 seats per sector on a regional service will not work. Their purpose on the service was to drive RE into the ground.

Your reading a lot into my statement.

kevinandrew · 15-02-2020 5:14am

Jack1985 wrote: »

It was a codeshare and a very different EI. Your points are off a bit it was January 2008 when RE started to reduce its ORK-DUB services from peak of nearly hourly. References to FR have really no basis here it doesn't take a monkey to work out 189 seats per sector on a regional service will not work. Their purpose on the service was to drive RE into the ground.

Your reading a lot into my statement.

Not really. I was just asking whether Aer Arann operated ORK-DUB on behalf of Aer Lingus as you stated. I cross referenced with my own memory of the route service history.

As for the Aer Arann reductions from 9 to 3 daily;

https://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0921/67763-aerarann/

Dated: 21 Sep 2005

Van.Bosch · 15-02-2020 10:52am

kevinandrew wrote: »

Not really. I was just asking whether Aer Arann operated ORK-DUB on behalf of Aer Lingus as you stated. I cross referenced with my own memory of the route service history.

As for the Aer Arann reductions from 9 to 3 daily;

https://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0921/67763-aerarann/

Dated: 21 Sep 2005

9 a day?? Never knew it was that frequent! If it worked then, you would imagine 3/4 a day would still work with connections the main focus?

IngazZagni · 15-02-2020 1:45pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

9 a day?? Never knew it was that frequent! If it worked then, you would imagine 3/4 a day would still work with connections the main focus?

Do you remember how bad the drive was from Cork to Dublin before the motorways? It was horrendous. The time has halved since. There would be little to no demand for non connecting traffic and connecting traffic would need very specific timings. Would it be worth it to use an airframe just for this? The planners don’t think so. I’d have my doubts also.

15-02-2020 1:52pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

Do you remember how bad the drive was from Cork to Dublin before the motorways? It was horrendous. The time has halved since. There would be little to no demand for non connecting traffic and connecting traffic would need very specific timings. Would it be worth it to use an airframe just for this? The planners don’t think so. I’d have my doubts also.

Last thing Dublin airport needs is another 8 ATR movements clogging it up.

Jack1985 · 15-02-2020 3:43pm

kevinandrew wrote: »

Not really. I was just asking whether Aer Arann operated ORK-DUB on behalf of Aer Lingus as you stated. I cross referenced with my own memory of the route service history.

As for the Aer Arann reductions from 9 to 3 daily;

https://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0921/67763-aerarann/

Dated: 21 Sep 2005

It went back up, heres a source for you too from Nov 2007;

https://web.archive.org/web/20071117182452/http://aerarann.com/travel_information/timetable051107-290308-.pdf

That summer it had been up to 7 during week days. I remember it well as I was a dispatcher at Cork at that time.

LXFlyer · 15-02-2020 3:51pm

The launch of the hourly train service at that time was another nail in the coffin for the air service.

Jack1985 · 15-02-2020 3:56pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

Do you remember how bad the drive was from Cork to Dublin before the motorways? It was horrendous. The time has halved since. There would be little to no demand for non connecting traffic and connecting traffic would need very specific timings. Would it be worth it to use an airframe just for this? The planners don’t think so. I’d have my doubts also.

I would agree with you timings would need to be specific. There's so much Atlantics now it makes the service much more viable coupled with a lot more commuting to/from Dublin there is sufficent demand for the route. Aircoach and GoBe prove this, EI have mooted offering connecting Cork-European services via Dublin too that would not be sustainable as a direct service from Cork.

Heres how that could work;

DUB0630-0725ORK Connections from early Atlantic wave 0445-0530.
ORK0755-0850DUB Connections available to all TA/Europeans.

DUB1230-1325ORK Connections from Late atlantics including San Francisco and early Europes.
ORK1355-1450DUB Connections available to BOS, JFK, MCO, ORD, MIA and late Europes.

DUB1850-1945ORK Connections from Mid Europes and LAX.
ORK2015-2110DUB Late flight option.

Also with those rough timings Business travellers are offered a full business day when travelling from Cork to Dublin.

Idbatterim · 15-02-2020 4:31pm

I flew back from Aus recently into dublin, the woman beside me, had to get the bus back down to cork, that would be unberable to me. the new aircraft available now, I am talking airbus , boeing, would use a lot less fuel than older ones, when the route was operating right? could an a220 be a good fit for dublin to cork?

the populations of cork and dublin are growing quickly. also dublin is now a proper hub, it wasnt years ago... If they launch this, we have our answer, I would absolutely expect it to be sustainable

Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

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