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What have we come to

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  • #2372
    JC01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭JC01


    Cupatae wrote: »
    Id relaxe with the "BOOMING" economy bit, also "the **best** quality of life " (results may vary)

    Full employment...ehhh kind of, bit of manipulation to figures with tursa nua and the likes, also alot of jobs minimum wage ect.

    Looks fantastic on paper and to reel off but in reality...not so fantastic.

    ~5% growth last year I think? (Yes I understand the implications of multinationals reporting profits through Ireland).

    Where is better? Possibly Scandinavian countries but much higher rate of taxation balances out.

    Granted a bit of figure massaging as is the case in every government metric but very few would argue we don’t have an excellent jobs market at the minute.

    And honestly I think if we hadn’t the legacy issue of housing supply at the moment, people would be very hard pressed to find much else to complain about in living here.


  • #2373
    Duke of Url
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭Duke of Url


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    You'll find it here - google.ie

    Why would I go to Google to get a post on boards.ie?

    Actually maybe I will find it on reddit where its linked to a boards.ie post.


  • #2374
    1o059k7ewrqj3n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭1o059k7ewrqj3n


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Did you think about that before you posted it?

    If the vast majority of the Irish electorate voted for change, then there is a majority of TDs in the Dail who are in favour of change and will vote Mary-Lou into the Taoiseach's chair.

    The 10% of people who switched votes to Sinn Fein in the election just gone are not by any definition "the vast majority of the Irish electorate".

    What we are seeing right now is the complete failure of Mary-Lou to persuade anyone from any other party to support her for Taoiseach. I haven't seen Eamon Ryan or Roisin Shortall come along and say that they want Mary-Lou for Taoiseach.

    That's not 10% of people switching (the figure is 10.7%), that's the difference on the last election. How many are new voters etc?

    SF had the greatest first vote preference count in the election with 24.5% or 535,595 votes and would realistically be the main component of any coalition for change because of their numbers, together with other parties who are calling for change, such as the Greens (have a look at their manifesto on housing).

    I would have to concede though the this isn't exactly the vast majority but it does point to a very large and real demand for change and would only rise in a 2nd election.

    Btw I don't see Ryan or Shortall coming out and saying they wouldn't do a deal with SF and Mary-Lou as Taoiseach. You can make statements like that all day, it doesn't mean anything really.


  • #2375
    JC01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭JC01


    optogirl wrote: »
    why are you putting change in inverted commas? Your statement is that we have one of the best qualities of life in the world if you ignore health and housing. That's ridiculous.

    I also can't keep up with whether we have full employment or a country full of scroungers that want a free house. I hear both said by people championing FG daily on here

    Because I’ve yet to see anyone define what change actually is, it’s being bandied about without any quantifiable targets.

    Housing is a problem here as it is in every other first world major city. Our massively Dublin focused economy just exacerbates the problem, you could argue 5 entire counties are effectively Dublin commuter counties which hugely muddies the water when it comes to housing here. Similar problem around Galway I believe.

    Healthcare is a multifaceted problem here, largely due to the HSE rather than the government of the day. I’ve always found it interesting that we have an excellent private health system but a terrible public one.


  • #2376
    Duke of Url
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭Duke of Url


    tjhook wrote: »
    Jaysus, I hope that makes you feel better.

    Duke, I don't know what post that was, but here's a pretty good explanation...

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/proportional_representation.html

    Thanks for that

    I found it here

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058050935


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  • #2377
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,448 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    JC01 wrote: »
    A massive chunk of those who voted for SF expect just that.

    Your second comment actually proves that. FG took a country that was in the deepest recession in a generation and turned it into a booming economy. We have one of the best qualities of life in the world, full employment, a good education system, a massive welfare system etc etc. Yes we have severe issues in housing supply and a health system with massive systemic issues but to say the previous 2 governments have done nothing is exactly the kind of rhetoric that has empowered SF.

    In your opinion, if SF took all 80 seats in another election in 2 months time, what would they need to accomplish to be considered successful? What quantifiable results do you think they need to deliver to maintain the support of the 10s or thousands who demand “change”?

    I wouldnt give much credit to FG for this, same would have happened under FF. FG just didnt do anything moronic to jeopardise a recovery AND this benefits them and their mates, so I wont give them much credit...

    dublin is the only city of any scale we have, hardly surprising these multinationals, located here. If it werent dublin, it wouldnt be ireland...


  • #2378
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    JC01 wrote: »
    ~5% growth last year I think? (Yes I understand the implications of multinationals reporting profits through Ireland).

    Where is better? Possibly Scandinavian countries but much higher rate of taxation balances out.

    Granted a bit of figure massaging as is the case in every government metric but very few would argue we don’t have an excellent jobs market at the minute.

    And honestly I think if we hadn’t the legacy issue of housing supply at the moment, people would be very hard pressed to find much else to complain about in living here.

    That's the issue. The economy doesn't seem to lift up the country, elements of it yes. We are in the top five per capita of countries with the most billionaires with yearly record breaking crisis numbers in homeless children.

    As for the legacy of housing supply, we've been going from hotels and private rental/purchases for use as social housing as an emergency to being the norm over the past several years and FG had no plans to change that.
    I agree housing is the broadest far reaching issue but FG were making it worse. We might be lucky enough not to end up on a hospital trolley though.
    JC01 wrote: »
    Because I’ve yet to see anyone define what change actually is, it’s being bandied about without any quantifiable targets.

    Housing is a problem here as it is in every other first world major city. Our massively Dublin focused economy just exacerbates the problem, you could argue 5 entire counties are effectively Dublin commuter counties which hugely muddies the water when it comes to housing here. Similar problem around Galway I believe.

    Healthcare is a multifaceted problem here, largely due to the HSE rather than the government of the day. I’ve always found it interesting that we have an excellent private health system but a terrible public one.

    Is this the Varadkar, 'It's worse elsewhere' scenario? Suggesting why we've problems isn't working on solving or excusing them.


  • #2379
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,448 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    What you call lackadaisical is spending the money that is there, the SF manifesto magics up double the amount that is expected to be available. USC gone for many, property tax gone for all, retirement age back to 65, 66% more houses than FG's already aggressive manifesto plan.

    look, people go on about SF proposals being unsustainable. FFG pull billions out of their h*le every year. NCH, health, welfare increases, billions, yet that is not unsustainable?

    They want to increase the state pension E5 a year for the next five years. I would hazard a guess, that this is more costly, than freezing it and lowering the pension age, down to 65... They are talking ****e, its just a matter of choices...


  • #2380
    Yurt2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Idbatterim wrote: »

    They want to increase the state pension E5 a year for the next five years. I would hazard a guess, that this is more costly, than freezing it and lowering the pension age, down to 65... They are talking ****e, its just a matter of choices...

    I've wondered about the sums of that one as well. I think the kindest thing that could be said about it is it's robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's auction politics and gives lie to the fiscal responsibility narrative.


  • #2381
    cadaliac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,904 ✭✭✭cadaliac


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I wouldnt give much credit to FG for this, same would have happened under FF. FG just didnt do anything moronic to jeopardise a recovery AND this benefits them and their mates, so I wont give them much credit...

    dublin is the only city of any scale we have, hardly surprising these multinationals, located here. If it werent dublin, it wouldnt be ireland...

    What a load of bollocks.


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  • #2382
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Yurt! wrote: »
    I've wondered about the sums of that one as well. I think the kindest thing that could be said about it is it's robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's auction politics and gives lie to the fiscal responsibility narrative.

    I think that ship has sailed out to sea dragged by the good tug boat 'law and order party'.


  • #2383
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    cadaliac wrote: »
    What a load of bollocks.

    Up the Dubs! :)


  • #2384
    Cupatae
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭Cupatae


    JC01 wrote: »
    ~5% growth last year I think? (Yes I understand the implications of multinationals reporting profits through Ireland).

    Where is better? Possibly Scandinavian countries but much higher rate of taxation balances out.

    Granted a bit of figure massaging as is the case in every government metric but very few would argue we don’t have an excellent jobs market at the minute.

    And honestly I think if we hadn’t the legacy issue of housing supply at the moment, people would be very hard pressed to find much else to complain about in living here.

    The bottom line is if it was all that good and everyone was reaping the benefits of this growth and amazing situation there would be no one complaining, but there are very real problems in this country..

    What constitutes as "better"? the jobs market is excellent?Alot of people are still living at home or scraping by how can that be excellent?

    I mean the houses are there but no one can afford em.


  • #2385
    JC01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭JC01


    Bowie wrote: »
    That's the issue. The economy doesn't seem to lift up the country, elements of it yes. We are in the top five per capita of countries with the most billionaires with yearly record breaking crisis numbers in homeless children.

    Isn't that the nature of capitalism though? People will be left behind in any economy and equality will exist no matter who is in charge.
    Bowie wrote: »
    As for the legacy of housing supply, we've been going from hotels and private rental/purchases for use as social housing as an emergency to being the norm over the past several years and FG had no plans to change that.
    I agree housing is the broadest far reaching issue but FG were making it worse. We might be lucky enough not to end up on a hospital trolley though.

    Did FG not bring 16000 social and affordable houses to the market in the last 2 years? Mostly through private developments but none the less.
    Bowie wrote: »
    Is this the Varadkar, 'It's worse elsewhere' scenario? Suggesting why we've problems isn't working on solving or excusing them.

    Far from it, I'm no massive fan of FG but for me they represent the best chance we have at the moment of maintaining what we have and slowly fixing some of the problems that exist.


  • #2386
    JC01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭JC01


    Cupatae wrote: »
    The bottom line is if it was all that good and everyone was reaping the benefits of this growth and amazing situation there would be no one complaining, but there are very real problems in this country..

    Thats never going to happen, people will always be left behind, its just the way the world works for better or worse.
    Cupatae wrote: »
    What constitutes as "better"? the jobs market is excellent?Alot of people are still living at home or scraping by how can that be excellent?

    I mean the houses are there but no one can afford em.

    The market dictates the price. People can and are buying at current rates, just not two people on average wages. Any new developments near me are usually sold out off the plans despite being obscenely priced


  • #2387
    Cupatae
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭Cupatae


    JC01 wrote: »
    Thats never going to happen, people will always be left behind, its just the way the world works for better or worse.



    The market dictates the price. People can and are buying at current rates, .just not two people on average wages Any new developments near me are usually sold out off the plans despite being obscenely priced

    i agree people will be left behind, but the amount of people being left behind now is no longer a reasonable amount, i dont doubt they sell out, i wonder whos buying em? wonder how many of em will be rented out for extortionate prices.

    just not two people on average wages that right there is a problem do you not agree?


  • #2388
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,346 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Bowie wrote: »
    Up the Dubs! :)

    markwardtattoo.jpg

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • #2389
    JC01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭JC01


    Cupatae wrote: »
    i agree people will be left behind, but the amount of people being left behind now is no longer a reasonable amount, i dont doubt they sell out, i wonder whos buying em? wonder how many of em will be rented out for extortionate prices.

    just not two people on average wages that right there is a problem do you not agree?

    I agree that thats a problem, with the caveat that people need to be realistic with where they believe they should be able to expect those homes to be. Average wages are simply not going to be able to buy you houses in very desirable areas, which in Ireland is most easily Dublin commutable towns.


  • #2390
    Duke of Url
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭Duke of Url


    MLMD is really going nuts at the moment about FFG not returning her calls.


  • #2391
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,303 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Tony EH wrote: »
    No. You're idea of "stability" is more of the same.

    The points others are making is about people wanting stable futures. The stability of buying their own home. Or renting in a sector that isn't the chaos we have in Ireland.

    A stable future, where people can plan a life.

    At present, that doesn't exist for a lot of folk.

    Again, just because you want a stable future it doesn't mean going to Vegas and putting all your savings on red is making a decision based on stability.


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  • #2392
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    JC01 wrote: »
    Isn't that the nature of capitalism though? People will be left behind in any economy and equality will exist no matter who is in charge.

    Certain levels, like breaking records year on year, are not acceptable.
    The problem with 'capitalism' is it's not defined. Bailing out banks and private bondholders passes for capitalism.
    JC01 wrote: »
    Did FG not bring 16000 social and affordable houses to the market in the last 2 years? Mostly through private developments but none the less.

    Well define 'bring'? Leasing/renting/buying at market, as a tax payer, only acceptable as a stop gap.
    In 2018 there were 4,291 new builds.
    As of September 2,003 were built in 2019.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-housing-general-election-debate-4982691-Jan2020/

    JC01 wrote: »
    Far from it, I'm no massive fan of FG but for me they represent the best chance we have at the moment of maintaining what we have and slowly fixing some of the problems that exist.

    To be clear I'm no fan of FF/FG based on policy. If they fixed their policies I'd happily support them, I'd likely not buy any of them a pint.
    I completely disagree. Their shtick is 'fiscal responsibility', but that's not the case. How any politician can over see record breaking crises and the number of working people dependent on state aid for rent etc. while congratulating themselves on the economy is beyond me. Not to mention high employment but blaming people on welfare for many social issues we are told a strong economy will look after. It hasn't.


  • #2393
    1o059k7ewrqj3n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭1o059k7ewrqj3n


    Duke of Url wrote: »
    MLMD is really going nuts at the moment about FFG not returning her calls.

    The establishment is closed doors - strictly FFG/Lab and perhaps a sprinkle of Greens, Social Dems and Independents who make up the numbers in exchange for token changes and input.


  • #2394
    Cupatae
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭Cupatae


    JC01 wrote: »
    I agree that thats a problem, with the caveat that people need to be realistic with where they believe they should be able to expect those homes to be. Average wages are simply not going to be able to buy you houses in very desirable areas, which in Ireland is most easily Dublin commutable towns.

    It's country wide tho, not just Dublin people seem to think it's only Dublin and commuter towns , but you have other major cities and commuter towns with the same issues albeit not as bad as Dublin prices but up there none the less

    Exclude desirable areas then where could said average wage people live ? I'd say it's slim pickings

    There's something seriously wrong with the whole set up that this has to be the case. Ordinary people jobs simply aren't good enough. Unfortunately they account for a hell of a lot of people

    The gap has to be bridged someway , and I don't think the answer is "just get a better" job as the prices will just keep climbing as people and groups keep reaping profits


  • #2395
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,346 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Duke of Url wrote: »
    MLMD is really going nuts at the moment about FFG not returning her calls.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • #2396
    Cupatae
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭Cupatae


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8000481/Magnate-4-5million-council-houses-says-hes-not-responsible-making-people-lose-out.html

    Similar craic going on here. Imo


  • #2397
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,111 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Duke of Url wrote: »
    MLMD is really going nuts at the moment about FFG not returning her calls.

    There are 86 or 87 non-FFG TDs in the Dail, why doesn't she talk to them?


  • #2398
    Billcarson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Again, just because you want a stable future it doesn't mean going to Vegas and putting all your savings on red is making a decision based on stability.

    Yeh like the stable future ff gave us a decade ago.


  • #2399
    Odhinn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,527 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    blanch152 wrote: »
    There are 86 or 87 non-FFG TDs in the Dail, why doesn't she talk to them?




    She's going to talk to all of them, obviously. Even the Greens.


  • #2400
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    There are 86 or 87 non-FFG TDs in the Dail, why doesn't she talk to them?

    But are they 'in' the Dail/country?


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  • #2401
    Duke of Url
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭Duke of Url


    blanch152 wrote: »
    There are 86 or 87 non-FFG TDs in the Dail, why doesn't she talk to them?

    I would think that many of them have turned her down.

    Or heaven forbid that SF don’t actually want to be leading the country.

    Who would they blame if a socialist programme doesn’t work out.


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