What have we come to

blanch152 · 12-02-2020 01:26PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Leo, busy making excuses.

Quite an extraordinary statement really, when you think about it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0212/1114778-varadkar-election/?fbclid=IwAR3u9k-iW5bKegbBTCNfZ5arSRoWZxvve2-POMPsvs6Qn_UpmRBpTehAqV0

Why are you so worried about what Fine Gael and Varadkar are doing?

One minute you are consigning them to the dustbin of history, the next you are following articles about them in the media. Is there a little bit of insecurity there?

Brian? · 12-02-2020 01:27PM

Kason Fancy Coal wrote: »

New York Times headline: "Sinn Fein on Threshold: Party With Old I.R.A. Ties Soars in Irish Election."

The article highlights Sinn Fein's ties to sectarian violence as well as its anti-business platform.

These are not exactly the kinds of headlines you want multinational CEOs reading (in other words, the people who make the investment decisions that provide the jobs that generate the income for the socialists to tax). It also discredits Ireland internationally that a quarter of the electorate are willing to cast votes for a party plagued by its ongoing ties to terrorist atrocities.

That’s absolute nonsense. Any CEO who makes investment decisions based on a single election in a country should be sacked. For someone who claims to know so much about business, this is a ridiculous remark.

SF are not “plagued by its ongoing ties to terrorists atrocities”. The PIRA doesn’t exist anymore, except in the heads of SF’s opposition.

What exactly is “anti business” anyway? Closing tax loopholes?

FrancieBrady · 12-02-2020 01:27PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They said the same in 1997 when Labour were at an all time high similar to SF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Irish_general_election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Irish_general_election

Look how that worked out, plus labour had no para baggage unlike SF and still got hammered over the years.

The paramilitary issue and shadows of gunmen - moral question is the whole reason that there is this standoff. It is just another layer SF have made for themselves.

Did you miss that fact in another post? FF actually came to the Dáil 'armed' at one point.
24 years after that...they were just another political party.

Duke of Url · 12-02-2020 01:28PM

FINE Gael now belongs on the Opposition benches while Sinn Féin must form a government capable of honouring their “remarkable promises” to the electorate, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said.

And he’s right.

FF should do exactly the same.

gormdubhgorm · 12-02-2020 01:29PM

storker wrote: »

You shouldn't be so hard on him. He and Inda only had...er...nine years...

Nine years is a phenomenal time in government and it was some endorsement by the electorate. That is just under half the time SF have in NI. But they have the safety net of 'power sharing'.

In NI those 20 plus years SF have achieved less on the very issues Leo was blamed for, yet somehow they will suddenly be the forces for change in the ROI?

New face I suppose and hype. I don't remember as much hype over a party since Blair's 'new labour' in the UK.

FrancieBrady · 12-02-2020 01:30PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Why are you so worried about what Fine Gael and Varadkar are doing?

One minute you are consigning them to the dustbin of history, the next you are following articles about them in the media. Is there a little bit of insecurity there?

blanch, I was the one on here telling all those 'consigning FF to dustbin' in 2011 that they were talking rubbish, that FF would be back.

I have never consigned FG to any dustbin. STOP telling lies.

And why would I not be allowed comment on FG?

Are you indulging in a little bit of your own Section 32ing?

FrancieBrady · 12-02-2020 01:31PM

Duke of Url wrote: »

FINE Gael now belongs on the Opposition benches while Sinn Féin must form a government capable of honouring their “remarkable promises” to the electorate, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said.

And he’s right.

FF should do exactly the same.

Did Leo not also make 'promises' to the 22% who voted for him? They didn't vote for FG to go into opposition.

Don't be naive...Leo is playing the political game just like all the rest of them are.

GreenandRed · 12-02-2020 01:31PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Why are you so worried about what Fine Gael and Varadkar are doing?

One minute you are consigning them to the dustbin of history, the next you are following articles about them in the media. Is there a little bit of insecurity there?

They backed the wrong man when they chose Leo to be leader. Then they went too far with the social media spin without the substance. Not so much Leo's fault as whoever is advising them on PR. Would never have happened on Frank Flannery's watch, he knows the electorate within and outside the Pale.

gormdubhgorm · 12-02-2020 01:34PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did you miss that fact in another post? FF actually came to the Dáil 'armed' at one point.
24 years after that...they were just another political party.

Oh I realise that but according to you history stopped in 1998? The troubles ended. You cannot have it both ways. Again the SF voter the hypocrisy wrapped in a contradiction.
But suddenly you want to go back further than 1998?

How many of the current SF TD's north and south were parts of a subversive organisation, who not only wanted to get the Brits out? But not only that did not recognise the legitimacy of WM or the Dail at one time or another?

Which is why Michelle O'Neill is very careful to use words like strategy when condemning those who want to kill her and Mr Kelly.

In other words "I appreciate the armed struggle lads, but don't shoot us now is not the time."

Plumbthedepths · 12-02-2020 01:35PM

markodaly wrote: »

Minority government. USC was kept in at the behest of FF.

Irrelevant nonsense, FG made a promise and renaged but yet some supporters of FG feel others have to be held to a higher standard. You couldn't make it up.

I see sheep · 12-02-2020 01:36PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They said the same in 1997 when Labour were at an all time high similar to SF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Irish_general_election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Irish_general_election

Look how that worked out, plus labour had no para baggage unlike SF and still got hammered over the years.

The paramilitary issue and shadows of gunmen - moral question is the whole reason that there is this standoff. It is just another layer SF have made for themselves.

The popularity of Corbyn's polices in 2017 forced the Tories to borrow lots of them and veer economically left in December's election.

Tories are considering a mansion tax, they're already nationalised Northern Rail, they've done a u-turn on national living wage, and are considering axing pension tax relief for higher earners in next month's Budget.

So much so that Johnson's mouthpiece has gone after them - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/half-million-face-double-taxation-radical-pension-tax-plan/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

FG will do the same and veer left as they can see that is the way the wind is blowing.

FrancieBrady · 12-02-2020 01:40PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Oh I realise that but according to you history stopped in 1998? The troubles ended. You cannot have it both ways. Again the SF voter the hypocrisy wrapped in a contradiction.
But suddenly you want to go back further than 1998?

What are you on about?

Why don't you stop with the lies there too gormdubh. We know you are angry. No need to stoop to lies.

How many of the current SF TD's north and south were parts of a subversive organisation who not only wanted to get the Brits out? But not only that did not recognise the legitimacy of WM or the Dail at one time or another?

I don't know. I didn't vote for the SF of the past, I voted for the SF that presented themselves for this election, as those who voted for FF at this election did not vote for the FF that turned up 'armed' to the Dáil.

Are you getting it yet gormdubh? I mean the attempt to drag up victims and the past failed pretty spectacularly don't you think? You maybe should take Leo's lead here and 'reform' your stance.

gormdubhgorm · 12-02-2020 01:41PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And that is all fair enough.
So SF fail to construct a government. The oppurtunity passes to FF and FG to create a very obvious government which was formed before. If they pass on doing that, there is no option but to go back to the electorate and see what they think.

That is democracy working and functioning perfectly.

No really because in a democracy many can vote in ignorance, which has been proven time and time again throughout history.

blanch152 · 12-02-2020 01:43PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did Leo not also make 'promises' to the 22% who voted for him? They didn't vote for FG to go into opposition.

Don't be naive...Leo is playing the political game just like all the rest of them are.

I must say that I am enjoying the desperate spinning from Sinn Fein. They know that their tax policies would spook the markets and have no chance of raising the revenue promised and they also know that there was a big hole anyway in their numbers. They never expected to be in this position and the challenge of actual delivery is something that they didn't expect to face. It is one thing for Eoin O'Broin to sit in a tv studio and explain how he will do things differently, it is another to actually do it.

I was very interested in that chap from Finance last night who explained that the Sinn Fein idea of building 100,000 homes on State land doesn't work if there isn't enough State land.

So Sinn Fein are trying to spin now that FF and FG should play their part. Posters on here who have spent years shouting and screaming that "FFG" as they call it should be thrown out, are desperately saying that they have to step up. It is laughable and pathetic.

Ush1 · 12-02-2020 01:44PM

Brian? wrote: »

That’s absolute nonsense. Any CEO who makes investment decisions based on a single election in a country should be sacked. For someone who claims to know so much about business, this is a ridiculous remark.

SF are not “plagued by its ongoing ties to terrorists atrocities”. The PIRA doesn’t exist anymore, except in the heads of SF’s opposition.

What exactly is “anti business” anyway? Closing tax loopholes?

It's not just CEOs, it's investors. Look at the Corona virus, markets are effected by sentiment. Where do you think CEOs and investors get their news, true or otherwise?

FrancieBrady · 12-02-2020 01:45PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

No really because in a democracy many can vote in ignorance, which has been proven time and time again throughout history.

Well I am sure you will be out with your 'twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was, to be used as evidence against' Sinn Fein in the event of a new election. Good luck with that.

MrMusician18 · 12-02-2020 01:45PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Leo, busy making excuses.

Quite an extraordinary statement really, when you think about it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0212/1114778-varadkar-election/?fbclid=IwAR3u9k-iW5bKegbBTCNfZ5arSRoWZxvve2-POMPsvs6Qn_UpmRBpTehAqV0

Not really that extraordinary. SF had claimed it has won the election, so responsibility falls to them to form a government.

He knows full well that if they actually manage it, it will be a **** show, and normal service will resume. FG will not be able to regroup without time in opposition, to do what SF do best, hurl from the ditch.

Plumbthedepths · 12-02-2020 01:45PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I must say that I am enjoying the desperate spinning from Sinn Fein. They know that their tax policies would spook the markets and have no chance of raising the revenue promised and they also know that there was a big hole anyway in their numbers. They never expected to be in this position and the challenge of actual delivery is something that they didn't expect to face. It is one thing for Eoin O'Broin to sit in a tv studio and explain how he will do things differently, it is another to actually do it.

I was very interested in that chap from Finance last night who explained that the Sinn Fein idea of building 100,000 homes on State land doesn't work if there isn't enough State land.

So Sinn Fein are trying to spin now that FF and FG should play their part. Posters on here who have spent years shouting and screaming that "FFG" as they call it should be thrown out, are desperately saying that they have to step up. It is laughable and pathetic.

I'm sure you as a committed... ahem Green are delighted your party (ahem) may be in the position of Kingmaker. ;-)
Btw John Moran is not from finance, he's over the state land agency that hasn't had a chance to work yet as it's enabling legislation hadn't passed as Leo called an election.

Ush1 · 12-02-2020 01:46PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I said just before we voted...whatever happens, things are changed fundamentally in the body politic going forward.

Anyone who voted for change needs to take a bow IMO.

*Slow clap*

They said the same about Obama.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"

FrancieBrady · 12-02-2020 01:47PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I must say that I am enjoying the desperate spinning from Sinn Fein. They know that their tax policies would spook the markets and have no chance of raising the revenue promised and they also know that there was a big hole anyway in their numbers. They never expected to be in this position and the challenge of actual delivery is something that they didn't expect to face. It is one thing for Eoin O'Broin to sit in a tv studio and explain how he will do things differently, it is another to actually do it.

I was very interested in that chap from Finance last night who explained that the Sinn Fein idea of building 100,000 homes on State land doesn't work if there isn't enough State land.

So Sinn Fein are trying to spin now that FF and FG should play their part. Posters on here who have spent years shouting and screaming that "FFG" as they call it should be thrown out, are desperately saying that they have to step up. It is laughable and pathetic.

Doesn't bother me if they don't 'step up'.

We will just proceed directly to another election then.

Cupatae · 12-02-2020 01:49PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Doesn't bother me if they don't 'step up'.

We will just proceed directly to another election then.

I think if it goes to another election SF wont get the same reaction or success, gonna be difficult to do business internationally when you have candidates on tape roaring "UP THE RA!!" not a bright move.

FrancieBrady · 12-02-2020 01:50PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Not really that extraordinary. SF had claimed it has won the election, so responsibility falls to them to form a government.

He knows full well that if they actually manage it, it will be a **** show, and normal service will resume. FG will not be able to regroup without time in opposition, to do what SF do best, hurl from the ditch.

Or in other words, (that FG support might not want to use)...he abandons the 22% who wanted FG in government, even when there may be a path to government opening up to them. In coalition or C&S with a party they were quite happy to spend the last 4 years with.

FrancieBrady · 12-02-2020 01:51PM

Cupatae wrote: »

I think if it goes to another election SF wont get the same reaction or success, gonna be difficult to do business internationally when you have candidates on tape roaring "UP THE RA!!" not a bright move.

I don't know either. There certainly would be a lot of variables at play.

Brian? · 12-02-2020 01:52PM

Ush1 wrote: »

It's not just CEOs, it's investors. Look at the Corona virus, markets are effected by sentiment. Where do you think CEOs and investors get their news, true or otherwise?

Yeah, the coronavirus is a real economic impact. Entire cities are closed down. SF aren't even in government yet.

Cupatae · 12-02-2020 01:53PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know either. There certainly would be a lot of variables at play.

The fact that some investors are pulling out at the mention of SF in power isnt a great sign either.

FrancieBrady · 12-02-2020 01:54PM

Ush1 wrote: »

*Slow clap*

They said the same about Obama.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"

Well I am on record here as saying I am not expecting SF to create a nirvana.

What I want is a fairer society weighted towards it's people, all it's people.

GreenandRed · 12-02-2020 01:55PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I must say that I am enjoying the desperate spinning from Sinn Fein. They know that their tax policies would spook the markets and have no chance of raising the revenue promised and they also know that there was a big hole anyway in their numbers. They never expected to be in this position and the challenge of actual delivery is something that they didn't expect to face. It is one thing for Eoin O'Broin to sit in a tv studio and explain how he will do things differently, it is another to actually do it.

I was very interested in that chap from Finance last night who explained that the Sinn Fein idea of building 100,000 homes on State land doesn't work if there isn't enough State land.

So Sinn Fein are trying to spin now that FF and FG should play their part. Posters on here who have spent years shouting and screaming that "FFG" as they call it should be thrown out, are desperately saying that they have to step up. It is laughable and pathetic.

What's pathetic is a hospital beds crisis which might be helped by improved scheduling using technology in a high tech economy.

And incentivising those who have plenty into buying new homes while perfectly good existing dwellings are ignored because banks and developers can't get as much coin from fixing these up.

While ass kissing multinationals with sweetheart deals bringing jobs here and further widening the gap between supply and demand in the housing market.

Markets fluctuating post election isn't new.

Not saying SF can do any better but it'd take them a while to do worse.

Do you have anything constructive to say about anything or just want to whinge with your keyboard?

gormdubhgorm · 12-02-2020 01:55PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What are you on about?

Why don't you stop with the lies there too gormdubh. We know you are angry. No need to stoop to lies.

I am on about how you like to compartmentalize things the troubles in the distant past you said. They are gone. Yet to support your argument you brought up mention of armed men in the dail decades and decades before that.

I don't know. I didn't vote for the SF of the past, I voted for the SF that presented themselves for this election, as those who voted for FF at this election did not vote for the FF that turned up 'armed' to the Dáil.

Do people not judge politicians on thier past? From Maria Bailey, to CJ Haughey, to Jackie Healy-Rae.

You are telling me the votes for Dessie Ellis and O'Snodaigh in the ROI was not based on thier republican past?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dessie_Ellis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aengus_%C3%93_Snodaigh

(spy ring in DE forgotten about?)

If politicians are not judged on thier past actions how do the electorate vote for them?

You are telling me that people vote just because of something a politician might do rather than has done?

Look at the independents to move away from parties

Mick Wallace made his name on the back of building Wexford FC in the past

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Wallace

Shane Ross his work in the Senand got him his TD seat in the past

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_Ross#Early_life_and_career

Now lost his seat because of things in the past.

Are you getting it yet gormdubh? I mean the attempt to drag up victims and the past failed pretty spectacularly don't you think? You maybe should take Leo's lead here and 'reform' your stance.

The hear no evil, see no evil, nothing to see here line you are going with. OK

GreenandRed · 12-02-2020 01:58PM

Cupatae wrote: »

The fact that some investors are pulling out at the mention of SF in power isnt a great sign either.

Which investors?

Ush1 · 12-02-2020 01:58PM

Brian? wrote: »

Yeah, the coronavirus is a real economic impact. Entire cities are closed down. SF aren't even in government yet.

Look at the Irish bank shares and REITs since the results. Economic impact is as real as the market shows.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/sinn-fein-surge-wipes-700m-off-aib-and-boi-38945672.html

Its hardly surprising. Unfortunately most of those banks major shareholders are us.

What have we come to

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