What have we come to

Allinall · 11-02-2020 09:30PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

He's no issue with what the government does, or if he does he'll not whinge about it anyway, seemingly.

I picture Grizzly Adams.

You’re in the wrong thread.

James Brown · 11-02-2020 09:31PM

Allinall wrote: »

The only thing there that could possibly be classed as government interfering in the market would be low taxation of vulture funds.

What low taxation? They’re taxed the same as any other company.

Vulture funds pay just €8,000 in tax on €10 billion of assets
https://www.thejournal.ie/vulture-funds-2-3176030-Jan2017/

Vulture funds loaded IREFs with 90% debt to sidestep withholding tax
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/vulture-funds-loaded-irefs-with-90-debt-to-sidestep-withholding-tax-1.4045473?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Fcommercial-property%2Fvulture-funds-loaded-irefs-with-90-debt-to-sidestep-withholding-tax-1.4045473

UN says Ireland applies 'preferential tax laws' to vultures funds and it 'cannot continue'
https://www.thejournal.ie/un-ireland-vultures-funds-tax-4563403-Mar2019/

Low taxation and giving them custom, (25 year leases and the like). This puts pressure on individual renters and would-be buyers.

Allinall wrote: »

You’re in the wrong thread.

The chap seems to have no issue with government but blames those on lower incomes, or should I say whinges about.

Blaze420 · 11-02-2020 09:34PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Ah. So if you are finding it difficult you won't whinge about government but you'll whinge about people worse off than yourself who are not elected to manage your taxes. Cool.

What’s the point in whinging? I have my rent to pay, bills each month and assorted other things and I’m left with an amount. If I want to improve that, I need to talk to my employer or find a better paid job - you know the way it has been forever? Instead, what you and others are preaching is that i should become a bitter person ranting about the gubbermint this and that when the gubbermint has **** all to do with my personal situation....

Gynoid · 11-02-2020 09:36PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Any person working a full time job should be able to provide for themselves.

Not in race to the bottom globalist utopias.
How people cannot understand the economic chokehold global corporations have over all of earths citizens, I just dont know. Cheap labour, cheap goods, slave based economies, global capital moving freely making money for the minute percentage of people at the apex of the planet's population, vulture funds racing round gobbling up land, resources, ports, fuel etc. It is a feudalist world and we are the modern peasants. No party is going to magically change that. Fiat based currency is invented at the top of the food chain and has almost zero worth by the time it trickles down to us time starved wage slaves. There was a time when a great many people worked in factories making local goods, or provided local services, could get home at lunch time for their dinner, had unions that fought and won workers rights and fair wages, economies were more local and sustainable and the uber rich were happy to play at colonialist oil barons. But then the rich wanted more, far more, endless wealth and power, a bite out of every apple, and the bottom tier peasants were turned into literal sweat and blood slaves and the top tier peasants grabbed all the shiny beads and baubles, and bought into the happy clappy globalism where we are good boys and girls, federally governed and united planeteers, working endlessly to get precisely nowhere.

James Brown · 11-02-2020 09:49PM

Blaze420 wrote: »

What’s the point in whinging? I have my rent to pay, bills each month and assorted other things and I’m left with an amount. If I want to improve that, I need to talk to my employer or find a better paid job - you know the way it has been forever? Instead, what you and others are preaching is that i should become a bitter person ranting about the gubbermint this and that when the gubbermint has **** all to do with my personal situation....

Treat working tax payers the same you would government, just leave them to it and stop whinging?
People are trying to get by. Circumstances made worse by government mismanagement might not concern you but that's okay.

Blaze420 · 11-02-2020 09:53PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Treat working tax payers the same you would government, just leave them to it and stop whinging?
People are trying to get by. Circumstances made worse by government mismanagement might not concern you but that's okay.

You are just making vague sound bites, I’m telling you like it is. I’m just trying to get by as well but blaming the government for the wage I’m on or the money I have left after rent and bills i chose to pay is a bit pointless don’t you think?

And if anything the welfare class are treated better so stop talking about them like is the era of Angela’s ashes - I need inhalers that cost me 100e a month combined. How much does a welfare recipient with a medical card pay for the same, 50c or shock horror 1e? Costs me 60e per doctor visit - how much do they have to pay for same?

Foxtrol · 11-02-2020 09:53PM

Gynoid wrote: »

Not in race to the bottom globalist utopias.
How people cannot understand the economic chokehold global corporations have over all of earths citizens, I just dont know. Cheap labour, cheap goods, slave based economies, global capital moving freely making money for the minute percentage of people at the apex of the planet's population, vulture funds racing round gobbling up land, resources, ports, fuel etc. It is a feudalist world and we are the modern peasants. No party is going to magically change that. Fiat based currency is invented at the top of the food chain and has almost zero worth by the time it trickles down to us time starved wage slaves. There was a time when a great many people worked in factories making local goods, or provided local services, could get home at lunch time for their dinner, had unions that fought and won workers rights and fair wages, economies were more local and sustainable and the uber rich were happy to play at colonialist oil barons. But then the rich wanted more, far more, endless wealth and power, a bite out of every apple, and the bottom tier peasants were turned into literal sweat and blood slaves and the top tier peasants grabbed all the shiny beads and baubles, and bought into the happy clappy globalism where we are good boys and girls, federally governed and united planeteers, working endlessly to get precisely nowhere.

Wow, that is some MAGA like nostalgic nonsense there

Allinall · 11-02-2020 10:00PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Low taxation and giving them custom, (25 year leases and the like). This puts pressure on individual renters and would-be buyers.

The chap seems to have no issue with government but blames those on lower incomes, or should I say whinges about.

First link- companies or individuals generally don’t pay tax on assets.

Second link- shows the government actively combatting the so called “aggressive “ tax avoidance schemes being used. Surely commendable?

Third link- SF propaganda with no substance.

Gynoid · 11-02-2020 10:08PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Wow, that is some MAGA like nostalgic nonsense there

That was my experience with my Dad working making a living wage using Irish raw material to make products for the home market in a factory 200 yards from where we lived. Unions were a big part of life in those places, big part of home chat too. Whole towns lived and then died around these places as the unions were gradually smashed by globalist big capital interests.The fact that you think it is made up right wing fantasy is telling and sad.

James Brown · 11-02-2020 10:10PM

Blaze420 wrote: »

You are just making vague sound bites, I’m telling you like it is. I’m just trying to get by as well but blaming the government for the wage I’m on or the money I have left after rent and bills i chose to pay is a bit pointless don’t you think?

And if anything the welfare class are treated better so stop talking about them like is the era of Angela’s ashes - I need inhalers that cost me 100e a month combined. How much does a welfare recipient with a medical card pay for the same, 50c or shock horror 1e? Costs me 60e per doctor visit - how much do they have to pay for same?

Pointing out you say no point in whingeing about government yet you seem happy to whinge about those worse off who don't make polices you seem to have issue with. Seems odd to me.

James Brown · 11-02-2020 10:12PM

Allinall wrote: »

First link- companies or individuals generally don’t pay tax on assets.

Second link- shows the government actively combatting the so called “aggressive “ tax avoidance schemes being used. Surely commendable?

Third link- SF propaganda with no substance.

The UN?

Anyway, there your market manipulation. Inviting and and using vulture funds who pit pressure on individuals buy driving up or maintaining high rents etc.

Allinall · 11-02-2020 10:14PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The UN?

Anyway, there your market manipulation. Inviting and and using vulture funds who pit pressure on individuals buy driving up or maintaining high rents etc.

Inviting and using?

How so?

ChikiChiki · 11-02-2020 10:16PM

Blaze420 wrote: »

What’s the point in whinging? I have my rent to pay, bills each month and assorted other things and I’m left with an amount. If I want to improve that, I need to talk to my employer or find a better paid job - you know the way it has been forever? Instead, what you and others are preaching is that i should become a bitter person ranting about the gubbermint this and that when the gubbermint has **** all to do with my personal situation....

What a condescending post. Serious question. Do you think you get value from your taxes?

I don't think my hard earned money has been well spent. I know of an elderly person with a lung infection who not long ago had heart surgery over 48 hours on a trolley at the minute.

There are Zero excuses for that. Absolutely zero. But as long as your alright eh??

Donald Trump · 11-02-2020 10:24PM

bladespin wrote: »

Don't think so, the faux outrage is getting more commentary than the Ra comment itself.

Would it make you wonder then why the leader of his party said that he would have to explain himself when informed about what he said?

Calhoun · 11-02-2020 10:29PM

Allinall wrote: »

I haven’t seen any market manipulation in the last 10 years.

Any examples?

The removal of bedsits without viable alternatives.
The handling of NAMA and selling off of housing stock cheap.
The rental pressure zones, which lock in prices at higher level essentially protecting investors.
Increasing incentives for first time buyers without increasing the ability for builders to actually build.
Letting the vulture funds be the only show in town when it comes to investment.

The government essentially have manipulated the market to ensure that there is a decent return for investors. Had they actually introduced change that would see growth for the public the rental yields would not be as good.

gormdubhgorm · 11-02-2020 10:31PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

For starters, they don't have the DUP to deal with.

Mind you... FG are huffing in the corner in very much of a similar fashion because somebody took their ball.

On a serious note: I certainly haven't suggested SF are going to create a nirvana of harmony. Just like a UI, there is no guarantees.

I want the duopoly broken up and a fairer society.

Handy excuse blaming the DUP - SF actually let social welfare control go back to westminster!

The SDLP chastised them for it

Social Welfare cuts NI:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3Kdvi9pOC4gJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sinn-f%25C3%25A9in-under-fire-over-welfare-cuts-move-1.2435441+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

SF have actually widened the gap between rich and poor in NI

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2020/02/10/celebrating-sinn-fein-election-surge-consider-their-pro-austerity-record-north

Left wing only when it suits it seems.

Foxtrol · 11-02-2020 10:40PM

Gynoid wrote: »

That was my experience with my Dad working making a living wage using Irish raw material to make products for the home market in a factory 200 yards from where we lived. Unions were a big part of life in those places, big part of home chat too. Whole towns lived and then died around these places as the unions were gradually smashed by globalist big capital interests.The fact that you think it is made up right wing fantasy is telling and sad.

How are you enjoying that internet and laptop/phone you're using to post here?

The world moves on, people want all the benefits of globalisation and capitalism but don't want any of the downsides of it.

It is why people of that mindset flock to populists like Trump, Boris, or SF. They tell people they can have everything and people buy into it, especially those who are nostalgic.

Geuze · 11-02-2020 10:42PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Nobody is or was relying on the market to provide housing, that was another false narrative of the election.

https://rebuildingireland.ie/news/minister-murphy-publishes-social-housing-construction-status-report-for-q3-2019/

By depending on the market, I also mean using HAP so much, rather than direct building.

Gynoid · 11-02-2020 10:58PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

How are you enjoying that internet and laptop/phone you're using to post here?

The world moves on, people want all the benefits of globalisation and capitalism but don't want any of the downsides of it.

It is why people of that mindset flock to populists like Trump, Boris, or SF. They tell people they can have everything and people buy into it, especially those who are nostalgic.

Uh yeah, if you read the thread you would see I object to the idealisation of SF. Or any other party for that matter. I never vote for parties. My point is people fail to see the roots of the demise of personal self sufficiency in the feudalism that is globalisation. People have a fantasy star trek image of globalism but corporate globalism cannot survive without having a huge underclass enslaved making cheap goods and a class above that on the wage slave treadmill consuming cheap goods. All our perks come from the torment of that huge underclass, that system rules us above any politics we may think we have put in power, corporations have claimed sovreignty over the demos, I cannot admire such a system. Globalisation is not a necessary precondition either to modernity, advancement, invention, that is part of the lie.

James Brown · 11-02-2020 11:32PM

Allinall wrote: »

Inviting and using?

How so?

Low tax.
Using, leasing and buying in lieu of building social housing.
Low tax and customer.

Jinglejangle69 · 11-02-2020 11:33PM

Holy feck lads where do some of you get the time to post here all day long!!

Like do yous even eat!??

Some notable posters here.

James Brown · 11-02-2020 11:50PM

Geuze wrote: »

By depending on the market, I also mean using HAP so much, rather than direct building.

It was FG using the market and relying on it exacerbated the crises in housing and homelessness.
Hotels and buying at market use to be emergency one off measures. Now its common and costly.
Thankfully most of those likely to form a government will build.

tigerboon · 11-02-2020 11:54PM

Calhoun wrote: »

The removal of bedsits without viable alternatives.

The handling of NAMA and selling off of housing stock cheap.

The rental pressure zones, which lock in prices at higher level essentially protecting investors.

Increasing incentives for first time buyers without increasing the ability for builders to actually build.

Letting the vulture funds be the only show in town when it comes to investment.

The government essentially have manipulated the market to ensure that there is a decent return for investors. Had they actually introduced change that would see growth for the public the rental yields would not be as good.

Large mortgage deposits which forces people to rent longer, leading to pressure on rents, therefore increasing yields for buy to lets. This increases the value .
Increased building costs due to over regulation. Keeps the small builder out as they wouldn't get the level of credit required. Increased regulations is creating a government sponsored monopoly.
Outlaw bedsits because they'd keep rent down...
Costs are deliberately being kept up and wages at a level so housing is not affordable.

blanch152 · 11-02-2020 11:55PM

Geuze wrote: »

By depending on the market, I also mean using HAP so much, rather than direct building.

Capacity to build was an issue, it still is.

This is being ramped up and whoever is in government over the next few years will reap the benefits of the increase in apprenticeships over the last two or three years.

smurgen · 12-02-2020 12:11AM

https://twitter.com/EOBroin/status/1227256737524322304?s=19

Foxtrol · 12-02-2020 12:31AM

Gynoid wrote: »

Uh yeah, if you read the thread you would see I object to the idealisation of SF. Or any other party for that matter. I never vote for parties. My point is people fail to see the roots of the demise of personal self sufficiency in the feudalism that is globalisation. People have a fantasy star trek image of globalism but corporate globalism cannot survive without having a huge underclass enslaved making cheap goods and a class above that on the wage slave treadmill consuming cheap goods. All our perks come from the torment of that huge underclass, that system rules us above any politics we may think we have put in power, corporations have claimed sovreignty over the demos, I cannot admire such a system. Globalisation is not a necessary precondition either to modernity, advancement, invention, that is part of the lie.

In an interconnected world where advancement means that we now have machinery that can replace most manual labour, what system do you suggest we move to that will provide all the benefits but none of the downsides you complain about?

gormdubhgorm · 12-02-2020 12:45AM

smurgen wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EOBroin/status/1227256737524322304?s=19

In 2019 NI had 7,809 increase in houses completed the total housing stock is 798,971. So that is just under a 10% increase.

https://www.communities-ni.gov.uk/system/files/publications/communities/ni-housing-stats-18-19-full-copy.PDF

If you look at the figures for of 2019 - 17% more homes were built in the ROI as per housing stock than the previous year.

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/construction/newdwellingcompletions/

That means that the ROI has built 7% more houses in the same year than NI.

Note - this is as per housing stock in each jurisdiction.

Foxtrol · 12-02-2020 12:47AM

smurgen wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EOBroin/status/1227256737524322304?s=19

Not absolving FG for the mess they made on housing but is he stupid or does he believe potential SF voters are?

For something that has a slow ramp up time, of course you're going to be behind the average in the initial period and then you should be ahead of your average in the later years.

Is he setting himself up to pat himself on the back in case SF have the balls to go into government and he gets the job?

12-02-2020 12:51AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

In 2019 NI had 7,809 increase in houses completed the total housing stock is 798,971. So that is just under a 10% increase.

https://www.communities-ni.gov.uk/system/files/publications/communities/ni-housing-stats-18-19-full-copy.PDF

If you look at the figures for of 2019 - 17% more homes were built in the ROI than the previous year.

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/construction/newdwellingcompletions/

That means that the ROI has built 7% more houses in the same year.

Population of NI: 1,891,100 (2019)

Population of ROI: 4.9 million (2019)

gormdubhgorm · 12-02-2020 12:59AM

DubInMeath wrote: »

Population of NI: 1,891,100 (2019)

Population of ROI: 4.9 million (2019)

Hence the percentages of houses built as per the amount of housing stock, in each jurisdiction.

Yet in NI there is nearly less than half of the percentage increase than the ROI.

Figures don't lie in this case.

What have we come to

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