General Election and Government Formation Megathread (see post #1)

05-02-2020 05:32AM

Sinn Fein really should have stayed out of the debate. Mary Lou had a shoddy argument to most points and was shown up a bit. Not getting a seat in the debate would have been much more beneficial to SF as a whole.

What's the old saying?

“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”

brucky · 05-02-2020 09:13AM

Mary Lou accuses Micheal Martin of “mansplaining”. If one of the other candidates made a comment such as this to another female candidate what would happen?
Sinn Féin hasn't exactly come out smelling of roses in how they have very recently treated female candidates and members of the party. Should the leader concentrate her energy on these recent events?
God forbid you should be allowed, or not allowed, to express an opinion in the debate. I think it gives an insight into her contempt for men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJyQpRfaGnw

rob316 · 05-02-2020 09:16AM

And she kept referring to Leo and Martin as "these men". She had a real chip on her shoulder I thought and came across terrible

rob316 · 05-02-2020 09:21AM

The chan chan man wrote: »

I will vote..but seriously, what’s the fu€king point?!

I think we are all asking the same question. It's a broken system

robman60 · 05-02-2020 09:22AM

She was playing this from the beginning. She was clearly saying these men as much as possible and I had noticed that even prior to the ridiculous mansplaining comment. Clearly she was trying to play the I'm the one woman up here and these men are afaid tactic that worked so well for Jo Swinson in the UK :rolleyes:

intellectual dosser · 05-02-2020 09:23AM

I cringed more than was outraged.

brucky · 05-02-2020 09:33AM

It wasn't outrage, it would have been if the shoe was on the other foot!! She was allowed to carry on in this vein through the whole debate. Significant internal difficulties became apparent in how her party was treating women members, and Mary Lou came out with this comment, not the progressive, positive, a force for change message that her party are trying to promote. Is she the new Trump?

rob316 · 05-02-2020 09:37AM

FG will support FF again but it'll hurt both parties in the long term. SF will for the first time be positioned as the main opposition party and not this fallacy that it's FG vs FF. In 2024 then SF will have the opportunity to actually win a majority government. Not saying the will but the chance will be there.
It's quite easy to see SF plan here and it's affirmed by the fact they only ran 40 odd candidates in this election.

Pawwed Rig · 05-02-2020 09:37AM

brucky wrote: »

Mary Lou accuses Micheal Martin of “mansplaining”.

Common tactic using identity politics. It has not really been seen too often in the Irish arena before but I guess it was only a matter of time. There is no argument that can be used to defend yourself other than by dragging the conversation right off topic.

TBH the use of the word will not go down well with the SF faithful. Disappointing to see.

ThunbergsAreGo · 05-02-2020 09:39AM

Yeah, it didnt paint her in a good light at all and is usually what people go to when they have lost an argument.

However, it wont affect their core vote and wasnt the worst thing that happened to MLM last night

I thought the her being unable to quantity the word massive in any shape are form and lying/changing her story on the same channels two nights in a row - but they have the momentum (and are unlikely to form a government) - and that is more important that anything at this stage

Buer · 05-02-2020 09:43AM

jm08 wrote: »

She wasn't allowed finish on the Special Criminal Court - Miriam interrupted. What ML was trying to say was that it should be reviewed (which is what Amnesty, Irish Council of Civil Liberties, the UN also say).

She had plenty of time to say that. She had a carefully rehearsed line which was going to walk the tightrope without addressing the question. It was clearly time to move on as it was clear she wasn't going to give a straight answer.

silver2020 · 05-02-2020 09:45AM

markodaly wrote: »

This.

This election is reminding me of Labour back in 2011.
SF will suffer the same fate of over promising in a few years days time.

I've corrected the post

Mary Lou did not do well last night.

Handlers are probably wishing they never opened their mouths on not being part of the debate

silver2020 · 05-02-2020 09:50AM

rob316 wrote: »

FG will support FF again but it'll hurt both parties in the long term. SF will for the first time be positioned as the main opposition party and not this fallacy that it's FG vs FF. In 2024 then SF will have the opportunity to actually win a majority government. Not saying the will but the chance will be there.
It's quite easy to see SF plan here and it's affirmed by the fact they only ran 40 odd candidates in this election.

The local elections and polls up til end of 2019 showed SF support waning, so 42 candidates was appropriate. One candidate in Kildare south cares so little that she's on holiday!!

There is obvious comradery between MM & LV and despite the public attacks they come across as two people who get along with each other quite well, so a FF led minority with FG confidence and supply is probably the final result especially if FF get 20+ seats more than FG.

It has worked quite well for FF, (being on the sideline of government rather than in it) and probably would be the prudent thing to do for FG.

So bets on FF minority and SF dropping to 15% by Saturday

FrancieBrady · 05-02-2020 09:51AM

Buer wrote: »

She had plenty of time to say that. She had a carefully rehearsed line which was going to walk the tightrope without addressing the question. It was clearly time to move on as it was clear she wasn't going to give a straight answer.

Yes it was time to move on 'to the important issues that voters are concerned about' as Miriam herself said.

Buer · 05-02-2020 09:52AM

silver2020 wrote: »

I've corrected the post

Mary Lou did not do well last night.

Handlers are probably wishing they never opened their mouths on not being part of the debate

They had to put her on. The position of behind outside the tent and p*ssing in really suited them. They could cultivate the position of the establishment trying to keep them down and generate support on that basis. It's a solid tactic and they knocked it out of the park.

The issue was they then had to deliver when allowed into the tent which didn't happen. Will the performance last night take away the gains already made in the polls? Somewhat, I reckon but there will still be a net gain overall. But there's always a dip from the polls to the election count for SF so I don't see them claiming much more than their existing seat count.

At this point, I'm struggling to see how a viable government is formed unless there's another S&C agreement or a very messy coalition.

Bishop of hope · 05-02-2020 09:54AM

silver2020 wrote: »

I've corrected the post

Mary Lou did not do well last night.

Handlers are probably wishing they never opened their mouths on not being part of the debate

She did great, its the biased meeja that's trying to discredit her, SF can't get a fair hearing with the establishment biased press and TV and radio.
There only place the get a fair hearing is on social meeja don't you know.

awec · 05-02-2020 10:01AM

rob316 wrote: »

I think we are all asking the same question. It's a broken system

It's not a broken system.

You just have a divided electorate. The two biggest parties are only slightly different to one another and the alternatives not attractive.

Chips Lovell · 05-02-2020 10:08AM

Mod Note

Please read the charter folks

Keep your language civil, particularly when referring to other posters and people in the public eye. Using unsavoury language does not add to your argument. Examples would be referring to other people or groups as scumbags, crusties, sheeple, shills, trolls, traitors or saying that recently deceased people should “rot in hell” or similar. Repeated use of terms like that will result in a ban from the forum.

No name calling

PhantomHat · 05-02-2020 10:13AM

There were several 'feminist types' whooping on Twitter when she said mansplaining.

spurious · 05-02-2020 10:21AM

Populists will be populist.

markodaly · 05-02-2020 10:26AM

The Irish Nationalist evoking Americanisms.

seamus · 05-02-2020 10:29AM

PhantomHat wrote: »

There were several 'feminist types' whooping on Twitter when she said mansplaining.

The rest of the "feminist types" on Twitter were facepalming, tbh.

It was clear that Mary-Lou was trying to play this card the entire time and did so in an extremely contrived and clunky way that was an obvious attempt to appear "down with the kids".

It's exactly the kind of false victim rubbish that undermines real issues, advocacy groups online were not happy with her.

hotmail.com · 05-02-2020 10:29AM

spurious wrote: »

Populists will be populist.

Have you read the manifestos of FF and FG? Every party is populist.

seamus · 05-02-2020 10:35AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sinn Fein really should have stayed out of the debate. Mary Lou had a shoddy argument to most points and was shown up a bit. Not getting a seat in the debate would have been much more beneficial to SF as a whole.

What's the old saying?

“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”

I called this last night. All of last night's talking points were known before the debate, all she had to do is have satisfactory answers on them ready to go. Somehow she missed the most important ones and got tripped up by them.

awec wrote: »

It's not a broken system.

You just have a divided electorate. The two biggest parties are only slightly different to one another and the alternatives not attractive.

Functionally we're moving from a broken (two-party) system, to a more representative one where every future government will be some form of broader coalition.

Realistically if SF were to formally abandon the IRA, we'd have a proper game on. 3 main parties with a number of small but stable outer parties. It's SF's refusal to cut hte cord that's holding it back.

amadangomor · 05-02-2020 10:42AM

NIMAN wrote: »

More marxists.
I think

Marxism is a type of communist ideal.

silver2020 · 05-02-2020 10:48AM

Bishop of hope wrote: »

She did great, its the biased meeja that's trying to discredit her, SF can't get a fair hearing with the establishment biased press and TV and radio.
There only place the get a fair hearing is on social meeja don't you know.

I'd get that telly of yours fixed

Not even those in SF can say she did well. She was a long way back in 3rd place

markodaly · 05-02-2020 10:51AM

hotmail.com wrote: »

Have you read the manifestos of FF and FG? Every party is populist.

Not at all.

FG, for example, are not going to row back on their pension retirement age.

FF and SF will.

FF and SF are populist, even though they know in the long run it's unsustainable.
FG is trying to make a tough choice now, for the betterment of the long-run state finances.

hotmail.com · 05-02-2020 10:58AM

markodaly wrote: »

Not at all.

FG, for example, are not going to row back on their pension retirement age.

FF and SF will.

FF and SF are populist, even though they know in the long run it's unsustainable.
FG is trying to make a tough choice now, for the betterment of the long-run state finances.

Any party that is running for election makes stupid election promises and therefore is populist. FG have promised to dramtically cut usc which is madness.

The 'populist' term is an attempt to smear parties that are doing well.

And I don't even support SF.

Plus I think FG have rowed back on the pension age.

seamus · 05-02-2020 11:06AM

amadangomor wrote: »

Marxism is a type of communist ideal.

You have the family tree upside-down.

Marxism is the foundation stone of socialism.

Communism is a form of socialism.

Communism itself is rather broad, covering everything from authoritarian communism like in China, to anarchic communism (a sort of tribal community living), and everything in between.

LeinsterDub · 05-02-2020 11:26AM

markodaly wrote: »

Not at all.

FG, for example, are not going to row back on their pension retirement age.

This is the second\third election in which FG have pledged to get rid of USC, build a metro, etc . Perhaps they aren't populist but what's the terms for pledging to do things you've no intention of doing

General Election and Government Formation Megathread (see post #1)

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