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Smart People in bad jobs?

24

Comments

  • #32
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    mcgregor2019 wrote: »
    I’ve recently become quite curious and it only dawned on me lately when I met an old classmate for a pint.......

    We were chatting about some of our old classmates and one, in particular, your typical geek, red hair, glasses, almost a wizard, knew every single answer in class from 1st to 6th year, always excelled, had tremendously supportive parents, always got an A or a B+, and was often used as an example by the teachers during classes. Anyway, we recently found out that he prematurely dropped out of college, never done anything overly productive afterwards and eventually got a job as a flight attendant with Ryanair, no disrespect intended to cabin crew. It took most of us by surprise because he was the only one capable of getting above 550 in his Leaving Cert and he knew almost everything and now he is and has been working for a low wage with horrendously bad working conditions.

    Another friend, a similar story, was forever near enough to the top of the class every single day. He was always on time for class, always finished his homework, projects, almost top scores, eventually graduated from Trinity College with top marks and is multilingual and had and still has so many strong areas. It seemed, during his school days, he could do almost everything perfectly and at times, we all felt intimidated by his knowledge of almost anything, regardless of the topic or subject and his opinions and actions were always so beneficial. After graduating, he began working in poorly unskilled and lowly paid jobs, still to this day, doesn’t have money half of the time, always job hopping around and doesn’t really seem like he’s going in an accurate direction.

    I know that these are very vague examples, though I’m curious about what other people think?

    I know some people excel in life and somehow find themselves in strong positions depending on people that they know, or contacts and they establish strong connections and eventually invest in a nice house, nice car, get great jobs, have children, etc….,

    I’m just curious why some of the smartest people that I knew over the years are struggling the most?

    This is just my opinion, I know it sounds very inaccurate that I’m basing my opinion on people’s schooling days and I’m sure that there is probably a lot happening behind the closed doors that I’m not aware of, perhaps even maybe the recession and lack of opportunities in Ireland is to blame? This is just my opinion but I'm very curious

    What do you guys think?

    He might be book smart but a bit thick in the important practical ways

    One of my sisters got 530 in her leaving, she then earned two worthless degrees in music as she thought it would sound very impressive to go with her singing ability

    She's constantly in between new forms of education but has never worked despite being 32


  • #33
    KaneToad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,201 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    He might be book smart but a bit thick in the important practical ways

    One of my sisters got 530 in her leaving, she then earned two worthless degrees in music as she thought it would sound very impressive to go with her singing ability

    She's constantly in between new forms of education but has never worked despite being 32

    Education is never worthless.


  • #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mariaalice wrote: »
    The problem is tha to get to the well paying jobs which come after the first lair of promotion where you get all the pressuer from under and above, it has to be done to get to the really well-paying jobs.

    People seem to have forgotten that there's a career ladder and most people start at the bottom... My first (real) job with Esat barely covered my rent, and very very basic foodstuffs. A year later, I could afford rent, basic food, and some entertainment. A year after that, I was on 'okay' money.

    People these days tend to think they're "entitled"... irrespective of whether they have the experience/skills to be worthy of a decent salary.


  • #35
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    KaneToad wrote: »
    You're equating ambition with career progression. Ambition can exist in some many other fora outside of a working career.

    Well... Duh... of course it can.... That really needed to be said? I guess that's for the people who aren't remotely smart?


  • #36
    KiKi III
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    I worked in really good jobs where I was miserable for years.

    Right now I’m in college and I do just enough freelance work to pay my bills and it suits me.


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  • #37
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    KaneToad wrote: »
    Education is never worthless.

    Who said it was worthless?

    Some courses are pretty much that


  • #38
    Apiarist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭Apiarist


    I don't think there is a pattern here. I work in a well paid job and I was doing pretty well in school. There are exceptions, but generally those who do well in school do well later in the employment.

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  • #39
    0lddog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,236 ✭✭✭0lddog


    mcgregor2019 wrote: »
    .... Smart People in bad jobs .....

    I'd say there are a few boardsies in exactly this situation.

    Its not something unique to Ireland.

    A couple of years ago I got to know a German lad ( 20's ) who was over here on holiday. Came across as intelligent, well able to cope with the world, multilingual. His job in Germany ... sorting stuff off a conveyor in a recycling shed.


  • #40
    Inquitus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,796 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    Being Smart is only part of the puzzle, you need to be able to work with people effectively, be strategic and tactical as appropriate, and generally try and do the best you can within reason to progress. Being smart helps, but it is not the be all and end all.


  • #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    victor8600 wrote: »
    I don't think there is a pattern here. I work in a well paid job and I was doing pretty well in school. There are exceptions, but generally those who do well in school do well later in the employment.

    Generally yes, but often the people who do bad in school, do well in work too. The problem is that sometimes the people who don't do well in school, fail not because they're not smart, but because they can't conform to the school structure. The way that traditional schools teach isn't suitable for everyone.

    I didn't do well in secondary school. Got a relatively low leaving cert. Crappy college degree that I struggled badly to pass. Failed my first degree course. Changed degrees. Failed many of my exams, and repeated a full year. A constant struggle to learn.

    After university, though, things changed. Why? because most of what I learned or was supposed to learn, had no relevance in the real world. I've had a very successful professional career in Finance, I've a decent career as a teacher/lecturer, and I've just started a career in writing.

    Education or the failure to succeed in formal education should never be considered a serious reflection on someones intelligence. It's what comes after that's important. Our own ability to teach and develop ourselves.


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  • #42
    Lonesomerhodes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 515 ✭✭✭Lonesomerhodes


    mcgregor2019 wrote: »
    I’ve recently become quite curious and it only dawned on me lately when I met an old classmate for a pint.......

    We were chatting about some of our old classmates and one, in particular, your typical geek, red hair, glasses, almost a wizard, knew every single answer in class from 1st to 6th year, always excelled, had tremendously supportive parents, always got an A or a B+, and was often used as an example by the teachers during classes. Anyway, we recently found out that he prematurely dropped out of college, never done anything overly productive afterwards and eventually got a job as a flight attendant with Ryanair, no disrespect intended to cabin crew. It took most of us by surprise because he was the only one capable of getting above 550 in his Leaving Cert and he knew almost everything and now he is and has been working for a low wage with horrendously bad working conditions.

    Another friend, a similar story, was forever near enough to the top of the class every single day. He was always on time for class, always finished his homework, projects, almost top scores, eventually graduated from Trinity College with top marks and is multilingual and had and still has so many strong areas. It seemed, during his school days, he could do almost everything perfectly and at times, we all felt intimidated by his knowledge of almost anything, regardless of the topic or subject and his opinions and actions were always so beneficial. After graduating, he began working in poorly unskilled and lowly paid jobs, still to this day, doesn’t have money half of the time, always job hopping around and doesn’t really seem like he’s going in an accurate direction.

    I know that these are very vague examples, though I’m curious about what other people think?

    I know some people excel in life and somehow find themselves in strong positions depending on people that they know, or contacts and they establish strong connections and eventually invest in a nice house, nice car, get great jobs, have children, etc….,

    I’m just curious why some of the smartest people that I knew over the years are struggling the most?

    This is just my opinion, I know it sounds very inaccurate that I’m basing my opinion on people’s schooling days and I’m sure that there is probably a lot happening behind the closed doors that I’m not aware of, perhaps even maybe the recession and lack of opportunities in Ireland is to blame? This is just my opinion but I'm very curious

    What do you guys think?


    Met loads of them, it's very simple.

    Drug and alcohol addictions and mental health issues .

    Met several lads with good degrees walking tightropes of sobriety in shyte jobs.

    Is what it is. Most need to remember many with additions are lucky to be alive.


  • #43
    joeguevara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Very little of the curriculum used in schools have transferable uses. Someone who excelled in school, do not necessarily excel in jobs in real life. Also, school is very structured with homework, constant monitoring, fear of getting something wrong and getting detention etc which means that there is very little time to coast. Without that constant monitoring and spoon feed, some people can flounder. More senior positions require self starters and leaders.


  • #44
    ChikiChiki
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,949 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    mcgregor2019 wrote: »
    I’ve recently become quite curious and it only dawned on me lately when I met an old classmate for a pint.......

    We were chatting about some of our old classmates and one, in particular, your typical geek, red hair, glasses, almost a wizard, knew every single answer in class from 1st to 6th year, always excelled, had tremendously supportive parents, always got an A or a B+, and was often used as an example by the teachers during classes. Anyway, we recently found out that he prematurely dropped out of college, never done anything overly productive afterwards and eventually got a job as a flight attendant with Ryanair, no disrespect intended to cabin crew. It took most of us by surprise because he was the only one capable of getting above 550 in his Leaving Cert and he knew almost everything and now he is and has been working for a low wage with horrendously bad working conditions.

    Another friend, a similar story, was forever near enough to the top of the class every single day. He was always on time for class, always finished his homework, projects, almost top scores, eventually graduated from Trinity College with top marks and is multilingual and had and still has so many strong areas. It seemed, during his school days, he could do almost everything perfectly and at times, we all felt intimidated by his knowledge of almost anything, regardless of the topic or subject and his opinions and actions were always so beneficial. After graduating, he began working in poorly unskilled and lowly paid jobs, still to this day, doesn’t have money half of the time, always job hopping around and doesn’t really seem like he’s going in an accurate direction.

    I know that these are very vague examples, though I’m curious about what other people think?

    I know some people excel in life and somehow find themselves in strong positions depending on people that they know, or contacts and they establish strong connections and eventually invest in a nice house, nice car, get great jobs, have children, etc….,

    I’m just curious why some of the smartest people that I knew over the years are struggling the most?

    This is just my opinion, I know it sounds very inaccurate that I’m basing my opinion on people’s schooling days and I’m sure that there is probably a lot happening behind the closed doors that I’m not aware of, perhaps even maybe the recession and lack of opportunities in Ireland is to blame? This is just my opinion but I'm very curious

    What do you guys think?

    Leaving Cert is no indicator of intelligence. It is a memory test. Nothing more.


  • #45
    LirW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    Inquitus wrote: »
    Being Smart is only part of the puzzle, you need to be able to work with people effectively, be strategic and tactical as appropriate, and generally try and do the best you can within reason to progress. Being smart helps, but it is not the be all and end all.

    I know a good few people that are smart but lack interpersonal skills, cope very badly in the corporate environment or are chronic underachievers. Some are too wired for a desk job. I even know two guys who work crazy schedules because they thrive in it (one is a film set lighting tech and works mostly late evenings).

    I graduated with a guy from a family that valued education over everything. The father worked in STEM, the mother was a teacher. The children were all naturally smart and didn't do a lot of work in school because they never had to. All three kids from that family were extraordinarily gifted in different philosophical and artistic disciplines, my colleague was a great musician who was able to play 8 instruments really well, he was a music nerd.
    The parents pushed him to go into a Stem degree. He did and dropped out after a year experiencing a deep crisis because suddenly he's not the smartest in the room and he has to work really hard, something that he never had to do because school came naturally.
    Eventually he went back to his gifted passion and is now a music teacher and plays in a wedding band.
    His older sister is a published fiction author and the younger sister is doing a Stem degree and apparently doing pretty well.


  • #46
    Apiarist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭Apiarist


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Education or the failure to succeed in formal education should never be considered a serious reflection on someones intelligence. It's what comes after that's important. Our own ability to teach and develop ourselves.

    Sure, for a person who does creative writing, formal education is of a secondary importance. I would even consider it be a hindrance, after all, a successful writer should be able to produce pages of entertaining fluff, not agonize for hours in a library about the accuracy of a historical costume a side character wears.

    But personally, I would expect a person designing a bridge which I cross every day to be both smart, formally educated and well paid. I do not want them to develop their bridge making skills on the fly.

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  • #47
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    KaneToad wrote: »
    Some people have no interest in work other than it facilitates them paying the bills. The other 16 hours of the day are what they consider the most important.

    That'd be me. The work is merely a means to support my life. It was never going to be my life.

    I was pretty OK in school but most who got lower grades would now earn more than me I believe. School isn't like life. As somebody explained earlier, there are definite solutions to a lot of exam questions, there is guidance at all stages from the teacher. I was quick on the uptake and had a good memory. But the memory was quite subjective and only retained that which piqued my interest. So back then I could spit out how the Von Schlieffen plan operated or detail corollaries of Pythagoras theorem. But nowadays in work I am asked why JIRA ticket #6542 is still being processed and I couldn't give a monkeys because I can't differentiate it from #6523 or #5935. It is just inconsequential to me. If they pay me and I get to go home and do what I want, I'm happy. Ambition goes nowhere beyond the coffin or the urn.


  • #48
    facehugger99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,546 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    People skills, are IMO, a far more important factor in career progression than academic prowess.


  • #49
    onrail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭onrail


    Then there's the issue of poor career advice. A lot of very smart people, achieving 500+ points in the LC end up in what they're led to believe are lucrative, highly sought after professions which later turn out to be both terribly paid and stressful!

    In particular Civil Engineering and some science jobs are pretty poorly paid in relative terms.


  • #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    victor8600 wrote: »
    Sure, for a person who does creative writing, formal education is of a secondary importance. I would even consider it be a hindrance, after all, a successful writer should be able to produce pages of entertaining fluff, not agonize for hours in a library about the accuracy of a historical costume a side character wears.

    Well... my first and second books were non-fiction... Writing a fantasy novel now... but I get your point.
    But personally, I would expect a person designing a bridge which I cross every day to be both smart, formally educated and well paid. I do not want them to develop their bridge making skills on the fly.

    True enough. For technical positions, such as engineering, or medicine. But there's a whole host of other professions in business or services where personal development after schooling makes them far more effective, than the education they received while in school or university. Very little of what i was taught in Financial management (my primary major) was applicable once I started working in Finance.


  • #51
    ChikiChiki
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,949 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    I had a bad enough leaving cert, spent the last year on report and the last few months outside the year heads office so she could keep an eye on me.

    The brains were there but the motivation was lacking and I tended to just walk out of school whenever I felt it. Ended up working on a site with the auld man for a year afterwards because I was clueless.

    Saying all that I ended up working Big 4 and now doing my own consulting gigs at 32 that brings so much freedom and the life I want. I've found the formula that works for me.

    Things can change really quickly. Similar to poster above mentioned, I have always took decisive action or changed path quite quickly when I'm not feeling something. Never afraid to take a calculated risk.

    In the end it has worked out quite well.


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  • #52
    moycullen14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 983 ✭✭✭moycullen14


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    People skills, are IMO, a far more important factor in career progression than academic prowess.

    Attributes for success? Getting things done and getting other people to do things.
    Focus and leadership.

    Academic achievement doesn't guarantee 'success' - whatever that is - it just allows you to pick and chose the field you will succeed (or fail) in.

    Know plenty of people who have been wildly successful without much in the way of academic qualifications. They have personal qualities in spades but do seem a bit limited in the areas they work.


  • #53
    Sky King
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Sky King


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    One of the thickest dudes in my class is now a senior partner in a big 4 Accounting firm. Earns well over 3-4 hundred a year.

    If he earns minus 1 hundred a year he must be pretty thick alright!


  • #54
    ChikiChiki
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,949 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Academics make terrible Army Generals.

    The best surgeons have dexterous fingers.

    Dentists are failed Doctors

    One of the thickest dudes in my class is now a senior partner in a big 4 Accounting firm. Earns well over 3-4 hundred a year.

    Maybe he's not thick...


  • #55
    careless sherpa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 373 ✭✭careless sherpa


    For a lot of people the old saying applies:

    Question: What is your dream job?

    Answer: I don't dream of labour


  • #56
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,032 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Raconteuse wrote: »
    I anticipate a bunch of "people can do what they like bla blah" responses - they can of course, but personally I think it's a shame when potential is wasted.

    Potential, is exactly that, potential. It's a notional thing, loads of people could have been, very few actually are.

    As to "making it" in life that's very subjective as well.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #57
    creditcarder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭creditcarder


    Purple Mountain wrote: »
    And a Meghan Fox waiting at home for him every evening.

    When did travelling the world and having a woman in every country be a bad thing?


  • #58
    KaneToad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,201 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Who said it was worthless?

    Some courses are pretty much that

    A poster earlier...

    And you appear to be saying so too?


  • #59
    beejee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    You only have one competitor in life, yourself.

    If you can do a thing and genuinely believe "that's the best I could do", fair play.

    Measuring yourself against other people is a sure fire way to undermine yourself. I always tell younger ones in the family the same thing, it's not about being best in a class of 20/30 people, it's about being the best against yourself.

    If that makes sense.


  • #60
    turbbo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭turbbo


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Academics make terrible Army Generals.

    The best surgeons have dexterous fingers.

    Dentists are failed Doctors

    One of the thickest dudes in my class is now a senior partner in a big 4 Accounting firm. Earns well over 3-4 hundred a year.

    "Academics make terrible Army Generals." -
    How does having intelligence make you bad at something?
    It is impossible for it to be a drawback as an Army General.

    "The best surgeons have dexterous fingers." - Order of qualities in the best surgeons would be 1. Intelligence. - Dexterous fingers wouldn't be a disadvantage but it certainly wouldn't make them "the best".

    "Dentists are failed Doctors" - You don't fail medicine and end up doing dentistry that's not how it works. Have you ever looked at a CAO application?

    "One of the thickest dudes in my class is now a senior partner in a big 4 Accounting firm. Earns well over 3-4 hundred a year." - presume you left out the word thousand there - he still possibly hates his job.


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  • #61
    LirW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    beejee wrote: »
    You only have one competitor in life, yourself.

    If you can do a thing and genuinely believe "that's the best I could do", fair play.

    Measuring yourself against other people is a sure fire way to undermine yourself. I always tell younger ones in the family the same thing, it's not about being best in a class of 20/30 people, it's about being the best against yourself.

    If that makes sense.

    It's a good attitude to have really.
    The only problem I see is that competition is a big thing in corporate world from the recruitment process all the way up to senior positions.
    Now I don't think we're doing coming generations a favour portraying this portion of the professional world as end all be all, but many think it is. As long as this will remain widely accepted, I don't see any improvement.
    It's such a common problem that people don't lack in the brainpower department but somewhere else and they are deemed worthless or lazy because "such a smart guy/gal surely should be senior manager."


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