Smart People in bad jobs?

mcgregor2019

I’ve recently become quite curious and it only dawned on me lately when I met an old classmate for a pint.......

We were chatting about some of our old classmates and one, in particular, your typical geek, red hair, glasses, almost a wizard, knew every single answer in class from 1st to 6th year, always excelled, had tremendously supportive parents, always got an A or a B+, and was often used as an example by the teachers during classes. Anyway, we recently found out that he prematurely dropped out of college, never done anything overly productive afterwards and eventually got a job as a flight attendant with Ryanair, no disrespect intended to cabin crew. It took most of us by surprise because he was the only one capable of getting above 550 in his Leaving Cert and he knew almost everything and now he is and has been working for a low wage with horrendously bad working conditions.

Another friend, a similar story, was forever near enough to the top of the class every single day. He was always on time for class, always finished his homework, projects, almost top scores, eventually graduated from Trinity College with top marks and is multilingual and had and still has so many strong areas. It seemed, during his school days, he could do almost everything perfectly and at times, we all felt intimidated by his knowledge of almost anything, regardless of the topic or subject and his opinions and actions were always so beneficial. After graduating, he began working in poorly unskilled and lowly paid jobs, still to this day, doesn’t have money half of the time, always job hopping around and doesn’t really seem like he’s going in an accurate direction.

I know that these are very vague examples, though I’m curious about what other people think?

I know some people excel in life and somehow find themselves in strong positions depending on people that they know, or contacts and they establish strong connections and eventually invest in a nice house, nice car, get great jobs, have children, etc….,

I’m just curious why some of the smartest people that I knew over the years are struggling the most?

This is just my opinion, I know it sounds very inaccurate that I’m basing my opinion on people’s schooling days and I’m sure that there is probably a lot happening behind the closed doors that I’m not aware of, perhaps even maybe the recession and lack of opportunities in Ireland is to blame? This is just my opinion but I'm very curious

What do you guys think?

Raconteuse

I anticipate a bunch of "people can do what they like bla blah" responses - they can of course, but personally I think it's a shame when potential is wasted.

dashoonage

Why do you need a good job to excel at life?

Maybe he has an absolutely ****ing awesome life.

Bob Harris

mcgregor2019 wrote: »

got a job as a flight attendant with Ryanair,......knew almost everything and now he is and has been working for a low wage with horrendously bad working conditions.

Not just bad, but horrendously bad?

Luck has a lot to do with it, and maybe lack of being street smart, they might
a bit otherworldly.

Acadimic ability alone is no guarantee of success in life.

school is a heavily regulated and designed environment with a set of defined "correct" outcomes and a book and staff there to consult and guide you to them. the questions and tasks arent real world with disagreement or complexity involved, and very little space for you to fight your corner, confront opposition, or face an unknown that has to get done with a high level of uncertainty.

take into account that a family environment may be set up to perfectly support a student and that rug can be pulled from under them too...its no surprise to me that the brightest at school dont always make it in real life

nb the cabin crew lad.......sher cmon

They can all retained as teachers after all the other careers do no workout, although that is getting more expensive and difficult to do.

dvdman1

Nepotism and favouritism is rife in Ireland, the public sector is like an extended family club.
People have a multitude of things in life to deal with and may not place the job as being as important as it may be to you.
Income levels are relative to onces expectations and what they would like to do, maybe them people can live without a car or 2 holidays.
Maybe theres relationship or family deaths, health issues.the reasons are endless.

RobertKK

Some people go for high wage, high stress, turn grey at a young age etc and maybe the person with the less stress and is content/happy at a lower paid job is having the better life?

I think life is about being happy, doing what makes one happy, live your own life and not the life others think you should be living.

tritium

Being good, especially naturally talented, at something at a young age isn’t a very good predictor of success in adulthood. Sport is the most blatant example of this, but a similar trend is seen with many child prodigies. Basically it seems that learning to work at developing their skills is often missed and at some point they simply get passed by.

That not to say you, or other, examples don’t work hard, more that the transition is far from certain. Once they’re relatively happy, what harm.

caff

I think a lot of people don't do well in interviews and it puts them off going through the whole job hunting process. Especially since some companies take dragons den as a goal to aim for......
Jon hunting can become stressful and dispiriting so people just take what they can to avoid the stress and uncertainty then just get on with their lives.

Purple Mountain

dashoonage wrote: »

Why do you need a good job to excel at life?

Maybe he has an absolutely ****ing awesome life.

And a Meghan Fox waiting at home for him every evening.

padjocollins

i think we all know people like that.
pure speculation but a number would feel they don't feel drawn to keep on the high acheiving thread mill or have't found anything to give them focus. Others might feel that they have coasted along in secondary school but once they hit third level they are not used to having to work that bit harder and couldn't be bothered. they usually is still time for them to change up their lives if they want. more and more is possible with mature courses and online education

sbsquarepants

Not everyone is career driven. There's no such thing as a free lunch, to be earning the big bucks you've got to be putting in the hard slog, generally speaking - there's a lot more to human potential than climbing the career ladder or earning money.

Happiness is the only real measure of success. Plenty of miserable, stressed out "high achievers" out there.

IAMAMORON

Academics make terrible Army Generals.

The best surgeons have dexterous fingers.

Dentists are failed Doctors

One of the thickest dudes in my class is now a senior partner in a big 4 Accounting firm. Earns well over 3-4 hundred a year.

lalababa

Depends on your definition of doing well in life 😉 if it's earning over 50k pa , married with 2&1/2 kids, new mortgaged house, go to mass on a Sunday, and shiny car by the time you're 40 then bejeabus ! Congratulations! You have hit the jackpot! Ha ha .. would you ever f**k off🙄

The Tetrarch

One of my Leaving Cert class was a TD and Minister.
I could easily have picked a dozen with more ability.

_Brian

I was very career focused for a long time. I studied two degrees moved job a few times and never missed getting a job I interviewed for, including one I was 24 hours late for.

But about 12 years ago I just moved on and lost focus in career as we had two young kids. Following that I had a bad car accident which really refocused me.

I moved to a job now where I’m earning abkut 60% of my peak salary. But it’s massively flexible, working mostly from home, making my own appointments and most days I drop kids to school and often pick them up. Current job requires no qualifications at all. My immediate manager is awesome.

Raconteuse

There's a wide gulf between extreme pressure jobs and poorly paid jobs with crap hours.

As said though, some people just aren't able for job responsibility, even if they're brilliant academically. It's a shame however if they end up struggling financially when they did so well earlier in life.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Trollish Op.

Why?

Antares35

I think sometimes it comes down to confidence. Being able to recognise that a place is treating you badly or that you will never get ahead etc. and making the decision to move on, take risks and put your hat in the ring for something better. I stayed too long in my last job because my confidence was at an all time low and I genuinely believed that I couldn't do any better. It was only when I did other things in my life to improve my confidence (met my OH who believes 100% in me, up skilled and went to college at night etc.) that I eventually thought, "you know what, I'll be stuck here forever if I don't jump". Moving from that job to the next resulted in a gross salary increase of almost 50%.

Also, being smart, on it's on, is not enough. Plenty of the C students are now in good jobs because they know how to climb the system and get ahead, stay relevant and work smart, get on with people etc.

minikin

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Academics make terrible Army Generals.

The best surgeons have dexterous fingers.

Dentists are failed Doctors

One of the thickest dudes in my class is now a senior partner in a big 4 Accounting firm. Earns well over 3-4 hundred a year.

Big deal, sure I can earn that some weeks.

razorblunt

I wouldn't judge anyone for the job they're doing, I also wouldn't judge anyway for how good they were at school.
It's a very prescribed way of learning, not always transferable to college courses or working life.

crisco10

I actually have always marveled at the number of my class who appeared to be bad at maths (i.e. in bottom third of year) that are now accountants in the big 4 earning big bucks.

Where as a lot of the lads in maths 1 ended up doing engineering or physics and things like that. Which have lead to less career opportunities - assuming money and "status" are your definition of opportunity obviously.

ax530

I believe being able to preform well at the school system does not line up with being able to preform well in many work environments.
I have been working corporate type world 20 years my children are in school and I dont always get the school system and notice the type of skills needed to preform well in school system are often not the same soft skills required at work.
Plus I presume from age 13-23 there are a lot of external factors, mental health ect which cause change of focus and direction.

JohnnyFlash

Either work for yourself or find a nice and cushy job in the public sector or semi-State. Unless you get some sort of weird pleasure out of promotion then don’t bother - never get promoted into a job that causes significantly more stress for a few job extra. The taxman takes most of it anyway.

Simple enough. Lack of planning and ambition.

There's very little encouragement within Irish society for someone to plan their future, and choose what/where they will work in the future. It's a common enough thing in other countries like in the US, where people will have researched the companies they want to work in, sent letters, developed themselves for the actual positions they desire. People in Ireland tend to think in terms of a job, rather than, thinking of a career. There's little foresight applied, and most tend to react to circumstances.

As for ambition, it's almost a dirty word sometimes. There is so little focused ambition, and it's not encouraged.

I learned to plan and be ambitious once I left Ireland. (when I was in my late 20s), and my career took off like a rocket once I did. In Ireland, I found there was a insular feeling, with a small Island vibe, everything focused on our small employment market, which had such limited options.

Perhaps Ireland is different now. I suspect it is.. somewhat.

Randle P. McMurphy

Being smart or academic is not enough. The people who succeed the most in a material sense are the cnuts and sociopaths who know how to use and exploit the 'smart' people to get what they want. Some high profile ceo's are usually mentioned in this type of discussion, but it goes all the way down the employment chain to the lowliest supervisor to some degree. No matter how smart some people are they are just not equipped to handle this dog eat dog world we live in.

Motivator

caff wrote: »

Jon hunting can become stressful.

You’d be stressed too if your brother Will threw everything away to chase some girl across the country.

JohnnyFlash

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Either work for yourself or find a nice and cushy job in the public sector or semi-State. Unless you get some sort of weird pleasure out of promotion then don’t bother - never get promoted into a job that causes significantly more stress for a few job extra. The taxman takes most of it anyway.

The problem is tha to get to the well paying jobs which come after the first lair of promotion where you get all the pressuer from under and above, it has to be done to get to the really well-paying jobs.

KaneToad

Some people have no interest in work other than it facilitates them paying the bills. The other 16 hours of the day are what they consider the most important.

KaneToad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Simple enough. Lack of planning and ambition.

There's very little encouragement within Irish society for someone to plan their future, and choose what/where they will work in the future. It's a common enough thing in other countries like in the US, where people will have researched the companies they want to work in, sent letters, developed themselves for the actual positions they desire. People in Ireland tend to think in terms of a job, rather than, thinking of a career. There's little foresight applied, and most tend to react to circumstances.

As for ambition, it's almost a dirty word sometimes. There is so little focused ambition, and it's not encouraged.

I learned to plan and be ambitious once I left Ireland. (when I was in my late 20s), and my career took off like a rocket once I did. In Ireland, I found there was a insular feeling, with a small Island vibe, everything focused on our small employment market, which had such limited options.

Perhaps Ireland is different now. I suspect it is.. somewhat.

You're equating ambition with career progression. Ambition can exist in some many other fora outside of a working career.

Mad_maxx

mcgregor2019 wrote: »

I’ve recently become quite curious and it only dawned on me lately when I met an old classmate for a pint.......

We were chatting about some of our old classmates and one, in particular, your typical geek, red hair, glasses, almost a wizard, knew every single answer in class from 1st to 6th year, always excelled, had tremendously supportive parents, always got an A or a B+, and was often used as an example by the teachers during classes. Anyway, we recently found out that he prematurely dropped out of college, never done anything overly productive afterwards and eventually got a job as a flight attendant with Ryanair, no disrespect intended to cabin crew. It took most of us by surprise because he was the only one capable of getting above 550 in his Leaving Cert and he knew almost everything and now he is and has been working for a low wage with horrendously bad working conditions.

Another friend, a similar story, was forever near enough to the top of the class every single day. He was always on time for class, always finished his homework, projects, almost top scores, eventually graduated from Trinity College with top marks and is multilingual and had and still has so many strong areas. It seemed, during his school days, he could do almost everything perfectly and at times, we all felt intimidated by his knowledge of almost anything, regardless of the topic or subject and his opinions and actions were always so beneficial. After graduating, he began working in poorly unskilled and lowly paid jobs, still to this day, doesn’t have money half of the time, always job hopping around and doesn’t really seem like he’s going in an accurate direction.

I know that these are very vague examples, though I’m curious about what other people think?

I know some people excel in life and somehow find themselves in strong positions depending on people that they know, or contacts and they establish strong connections and eventually invest in a nice house, nice car, get great jobs, have children, etc….,

I’m just curious why some of the smartest people that I knew over the years are struggling the most?

This is just my opinion, I know it sounds very inaccurate that I’m basing my opinion on people’s schooling days and I’m sure that there is probably a lot happening behind the closed doors that I’m not aware of, perhaps even maybe the recession and lack of opportunities in Ireland is to blame? This is just my opinion but I'm very curious

What do you guys think?

He might be book smart but a bit thick in the important practical ways

One of my sisters got 530 in her leaving, she then earned two worthless degrees in music as she thought it would sound very impressive to go with her singing ability

She's constantly in between new forms of education but has never worked despite being 32

KaneToad

Mad_maxx wrote: »

He might be book smart but a bit thick in the important practical ways

One of my sisters got 530 in her leaving, she then earned two worthless degrees in music as she thought it would sound very impressive to go with her singing ability

She's constantly in between new forms of education but has never worked despite being 32

Education is never worthless.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

The problem is tha to get to the well paying jobs which come after the first lair of promotion where you get all the pressuer from under and above, it has to be done to get to the really well-paying jobs.

People seem to have forgotten that there's a career ladder and most people start at the bottom... My first (real) job with Esat barely covered my rent, and very very basic foodstuffs. A year later, I could afford rent, basic food, and some entertainment. A year after that, I was on 'okay' money.

People these days tend to think they're "entitled"... irrespective of whether they have the experience/skills to be worthy of a decent salary.

KaneToad

KaneToad wrote: »

You're equating ambition with career progression. Ambition can exist in some many other fora outside of a working career.

Well... Duh... of course it can.... That really needed to be said? I guess that's for the people who aren't remotely smart?

KiKi III

I worked in really good jobs where I was miserable for years.

Right now I’m in college and I do just enough freelance work to pay my bills and it suits me.

Mad_maxx

KaneToad wrote: »

Education is never worthless.

Who said it was worthless?

Some courses are pretty much that

Apiarist

I don't think there is a pattern here. I work in a well paid job and I was doing pretty well in school. There are exceptions, but generally those who do well in school do well later in the employment.

0lddog

mcgregor2019 wrote: »

.... Smart People in bad jobs .....

I'd say there are a few boardsies in exactly this situation.

Its not something unique to Ireland.

A couple of years ago I got to know a German lad ( 20's ) who was over here on holiday. Came across as intelligent, well able to cope with the world, multilingual. His job in Germany ... sorting stuff off a conveyor in a recycling shed.

Inquitus

Being Smart is only part of the puzzle, you need to be able to work with people effectively, be strategic and tactical as appropriate, and generally try and do the best you can within reason to progress. Being smart helps, but it is not the be all and end all.

victor8600

victor8600 wrote: »

I don't think there is a pattern here. I work in a well paid job and I was doing pretty well in school. There are exceptions, but generally those who do well in school do well later in the employment.

Generally yes, but often the people who do bad in school, do well in work too. The problem is that sometimes the people who don't do well in school, fail not because they're not smart, but because they can't conform to the school structure. The way that traditional schools teach isn't suitable for everyone.

I didn't do well in secondary school. Got a relatively low leaving cert. Crappy college degree that I struggled badly to pass. Failed my first degree course. Changed degrees. Failed many of my exams, and repeated a full year. A constant struggle to learn.

After university, though, things changed. Why? because most of what I learned or was supposed to learn, had no relevance in the real world. I've had a very successful professional career in Finance, I've a decent career as a teacher/lecturer, and I've just started a career in writing.

Education or the failure to succeed in formal education should never be considered a serious reflection on someones intelligence. It's what comes after that's important. Our own ability to teach and develop ourselves.

Lonesomerhodes

mcgregor2019 wrote: »

I’ve recently become quite curious and it only dawned on me lately when I met an old classmate for a pint.......

We were chatting about some of our old classmates and one, in particular, your typical geek, red hair, glasses, almost a wizard, knew every single answer in class from 1st to 6th year, always excelled, had tremendously supportive parents, always got an A or a B+, and was often used as an example by the teachers during classes. Anyway, we recently found out that he prematurely dropped out of college, never done anything overly productive afterwards and eventually got a job as a flight attendant with Ryanair, no disrespect intended to cabin crew. It took most of us by surprise because he was the only one capable of getting above 550 in his Leaving Cert and he knew almost everything and now he is and has been working for a low wage with horrendously bad working conditions.

Another friend, a similar story, was forever near enough to the top of the class every single day. He was always on time for class, always finished his homework, projects, almost top scores, eventually graduated from Trinity College with top marks and is multilingual and had and still has so many strong areas. It seemed, during his school days, he could do almost everything perfectly and at times, we all felt intimidated by his knowledge of almost anything, regardless of the topic or subject and his opinions and actions were always so beneficial. After graduating, he began working in poorly unskilled and lowly paid jobs, still to this day, doesn’t have money half of the time, always job hopping around and doesn’t really seem like he’s going in an accurate direction.

I know that these are very vague examples, though I’m curious about what other people think?

I know some people excel in life and somehow find themselves in strong positions depending on people that they know, or contacts and they establish strong connections and eventually invest in a nice house, nice car, get great jobs, have children, etc….,

I’m just curious why some of the smartest people that I knew over the years are struggling the most?

This is just my opinion, I know it sounds very inaccurate that I’m basing my opinion on people’s schooling days and I’m sure that there is probably a lot happening behind the closed doors that I’m not aware of, perhaps even maybe the recession and lack of opportunities in Ireland is to blame? This is just my opinion but I'm very curious

What do you guys think?

Met loads of them, it's very simple.

Drug and alcohol addictions and mental health issues .

Met several lads with good degrees walking tightropes of sobriety in shyte jobs.

Is what it is. Most need to remember many with additions are lucky to be alive.

joeguevara

Very little of the curriculum used in schools have transferable uses. Someone who excelled in school, do not necessarily excel in jobs in real life. Also, school is very structured with homework, constant monitoring, fear of getting something wrong and getting detention etc which means that there is very little time to coast. Without that constant monitoring and spoon feed, some people can flounder. More senior positions require self starters and leaders.

ChikiChiki

mcgregor2019 wrote: »

I’ve recently become quite curious and it only dawned on me lately when I met an old classmate for a pint.......

We were chatting about some of our old classmates and one, in particular, your typical geek, red hair, glasses, almost a wizard, knew every single answer in class from 1st to 6th year, always excelled, had tremendously supportive parents, always got an A or a B+, and was often used as an example by the teachers during classes. Anyway, we recently found out that he prematurely dropped out of college, never done anything overly productive afterwards and eventually got a job as a flight attendant with Ryanair, no disrespect intended to cabin crew. It took most of us by surprise because he was the only one capable of getting above 550 in his Leaving Cert and he knew almost everything and now he is and has been working for a low wage with horrendously bad working conditions.

Another friend, a similar story, was forever near enough to the top of the class every single day. He was always on time for class, always finished his homework, projects, almost top scores, eventually graduated from Trinity College with top marks and is multilingual and had and still has so many strong areas. It seemed, during his school days, he could do almost everything perfectly and at times, we all felt intimidated by his knowledge of almost anything, regardless of the topic or subject and his opinions and actions were always so beneficial. After graduating, he began working in poorly unskilled and lowly paid jobs, still to this day, doesn’t have money half of the time, always job hopping around and doesn’t really seem like he’s going in an accurate direction.

I know that these are very vague examples, though I’m curious about what other people think?

I know some people excel in life and somehow find themselves in strong positions depending on people that they know, or contacts and they establish strong connections and eventually invest in a nice house, nice car, get great jobs, have children, etc….,

I’m just curious why some of the smartest people that I knew over the years are struggling the most?

This is just my opinion, I know it sounds very inaccurate that I’m basing my opinion on people’s schooling days and I’m sure that there is probably a lot happening behind the closed doors that I’m not aware of, perhaps even maybe the recession and lack of opportunities in Ireland is to blame? This is just my opinion but I'm very curious

What do you guys think?

Leaving Cert is no indicator of intelligence. It is a memory test. Nothing more.

LirW

Inquitus wrote: »

Being Smart is only part of the puzzle, you need to be able to work with people effectively, be strategic and tactical as appropriate, and generally try and do the best you can within reason to progress. Being smart helps, but it is not the be all and end all.

I know a good few people that are smart but lack interpersonal skills, cope very badly in the corporate environment or are chronic underachievers. Some are too wired for a desk job. I even know two guys who work crazy schedules because they thrive in it (one is a film set lighting tech and works mostly late evenings).

I graduated with a guy from a family that valued education over everything. The father worked in STEM, the mother was a teacher. The children were all naturally smart and didn't do a lot of work in school because they never had to. All three kids from that family were extraordinarily gifted in different philosophical and artistic disciplines, my colleague was a great musician who was able to play 8 instruments really well, he was a music nerd.
The parents pushed him to go into a Stem degree. He did and dropped out after a year experiencing a deep crisis because suddenly he's not the smartest in the room and he has to work really hard, something that he never had to do because school came naturally.
Eventually he went back to his gifted passion and is now a music teacher and plays in a wedding band.
His older sister is a published fiction author and the younger sister is doing a Stem degree and apparently doing pretty well.

Apiarist

Deleted User wrote: »

Education or the failure to succeed in formal education should never be considered a serious reflection on someones intelligence. It's what comes after that's important. Our own ability to teach and develop ourselves.

Sure, for a person who does creative writing, formal education is of a secondary importance. I would even consider it be a hindrance, after all, a successful writer should be able to produce pages of entertaining fluff, not agonize for hours in a library about the accuracy of a historical costume a side character wears.

But personally, I would expect a person designing a bridge which I cross every day to be both smart, formally educated and well paid. I do not want them to develop their bridge making skills on the fly.

topper75

KaneToad wrote: »

Some people have no interest in work other than it facilitates them paying the bills. The other 16 hours of the day are what they consider the most important.

That'd be me. The work is merely a means to support my life. It was never going to be my life.

I was pretty OK in school but most who got lower grades would now earn more than me I believe. School isn't like life. As somebody explained earlier, there are definite solutions to a lot of exam questions, there is guidance at all stages from the teacher. I was quick on the uptake and had a good memory. But the memory was quite subjective and only retained that which piqued my interest. So back then I could spit out how the Von Schlieffen plan operated or detail corollaries of Pythagoras theorem. But nowadays in work I am asked why JIRA ticket #6542 is still being processed and I couldn't give a monkeys because I can't differentiate it from #6523 or #5935. It is just inconsequential to me. If they pay me and I get to go home and do what I want, I'm happy. Ambition goes nowhere beyond the coffin or the urn.

facehugger99

People skills, are IMO, a far more important factor in career progression than academic prowess.

onrail

Then there's the issue of poor career advice. A lot of very smart people, achieving 500+ points in the LC end up in what they're led to believe are lucrative, highly sought after professions which later turn out to be both terribly paid and stressful!

In particular Civil Engineering and some science jobs are pretty poorly paid in relative terms.

victor8600

victor8600 wrote: »

Sure, for a person who does creative writing, formal education is of a secondary importance. I would even consider it be a hindrance, after all, a successful writer should be able to produce pages of entertaining fluff, not agonize for hours in a library about the accuracy of a historical costume a side character wears.

Well... my first and second books were non-fiction... Writing a fantasy novel now... but I get your point.

But personally, I would expect a person designing a bridge which I cross every day to be both smart, formally educated and well paid. I do not want them to develop their bridge making skills on the fly.

True enough. For technical positions, such as engineering, or medicine. But there's a whole host of other professions in business or services where personal development after schooling makes them far more effective, than the education they received while in school or university. Very little of what i was taught in Financial management (my primary major) was applicable once I started working in Finance.

ChikiChiki

I had a bad enough leaving cert, spent the last year on report and the last few months outside the year heads office so she could keep an eye on me.

The brains were there but the motivation was lacking and I tended to just walk out of school whenever I felt it. Ended up working on a site with the auld man for a year afterwards because I was clueless.

Saying all that I ended up working Big 4 and now doing my own consulting gigs at 32 that brings so much freedom and the life I want. I've found the formula that works for me.

Things can change really quickly. Similar to poster above mentioned, I have always took decisive action or changed path quite quickly when I'm not feeling something. Never afraid to take a calculated risk.

In the end it has worked out quite well.