Norweigian Infrastucture Compared to Irish

wmahcm · 26-01-2020 06:46PM

JohnC. wrote: »

Okay. You're right. It makes no difference. Carry on. I'll leave you to your silly thread.

It's not "my" thread. And yes responsible Irish citizens will carry on, and learn from better ways to develop Ireland rather than be fed horsehtye excuses from the cronies who want the status quo to remain.

Carawaystick · 26-01-2020 06:52PM

Norway owns some of the Corrib gas field, Raphael Burke gave it away to them, so Ireland owns none of it....

cgcsb · 26-01-2020 07:01PM

If people don't like the comparison to Norway because of its extreme wealth then fine, we can compare ourselves to Spain, a much poorer country than Ireland with nation wide high speed rail, extensive metro, commuter rail and tram networks can be found in most Cork sized cities. Waste collection and street cleaning is superb, there's a full national health service and they aren't taxed much differently to Ireland? Discuss.

26-01-2020 07:10PM

cgcsb wrote: »

If people don't like the comparison to Norway because of its extreme wealth then fine, we can compare ourselves to Spain, a much poorer country than Ireland with nation wide high speed rail, extensive metro, commuter rail and tram networks can be found in most Cork sized cities. Waste collection and street cleaning is superb, there's a full national health service and they aren't taxed much differently to Ireland? Discuss.

As it happens I recently watched a video on Spains High speed rail disaster. Looks like something we would do here : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MYWYhPVwJBY

cgcsb · 26-01-2020 07:41PM

Deleted User wrote: »

As it happens I recently watched a video on Spains High speed rail disaster. Looks like something we would do here : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MYWYhPVwJBY

Well if you subscribe to English/FG thinking and believe that public transport needs to be profitable and pay off it's own construction costs, then I guess that video makes sense. Spain's high speed trains are brilliant and they provide a future basis for abolishing internal flights.

wmahcm · 26-01-2020 07:50PM

sheesh wrote: »

yes, thats what I'm doing.
you got me.
I'm on boards supporting the the nice crony cartels.

We know

sheesh wrote: »

so off you go and copy the Norwegians. Good luck with that!

Nope, where they lack in Ireland, you take the best most cost effective measures and systems from successful countries, you and apply them to Ireland in a well managed efficient system. You also examine their failures and make sure not to repeatedly emulate those. A nightmare for the present incompetent cronie status quo in Ireland, no wonder the thread has caused so much panic.

Cookiemunster · 26-01-2020 08:48PM

wmahcm wrote: »

We know

Nope, where they lack in Ireland, you take the best most cost effective measures and systems from successful countries, you and apply them to Ireland in a well managed efficient system. You also examine their failures and make sure not to repeatedly emulate those. A nightmare for the present incompetent cronie status quo in Ireland, no wonder the thread has caused so much panic.

This thread has caused the sum total of zero panic to anyone. It's called being realistic. Even the best most efficient systems cost billions of Euros. Where to you propose that this money is going to come from?

NIMAN · 26-01-2020 08:49PM

Oh great, another "Isn't Norway great thread".

Idbatterim · 26-01-2020 10:07PM

COmparing Norway to this banana republic! I like it ! I really hope Dublin has one metro line by 2050! Can’t wait for them to shred up the currents plans , start all over again , endless public consultations with the local experts etc ....

Idbatterim · 26-01-2020 10:08PM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

This thread has caused the sum total of zero panic to anyone. It's called being realistic. Even the best most efficient systems cost billions of Euros. Where to you propose that this money is going to come from?

Not increasing welfare by hundreds of millions every year might be start

ncounties · 26-01-2020 10:10PM

I don't think we need any monstrous sunken tubes, or colossal bridges. A high speed line from Belfast through to Cork, the Dart Expansion & Underground, a Metro line or two, a couple more Luas lines and a few hundred kilometres of decent city centre cycle infrastructure, and I think we would be the bee's knees.

gjim · 27-01-2020 12:20AM

wmahcm wrote: »

Nope, where they lack in Ireland, you take the best most cost effective measures and systems from successful countries, you and apply them to Ireland in a well managed efficient system. You also examine their failures and make sure not to repeatedly emulate those. A nightmare for the present incompetent cronie status quo in Ireland, no wonder the thread has caused so much panic.

We don't have the same geography as Norway so we've managed to link all our major cities (more or less) with motorways at a much lesser cost. This reflects badly on Ireland how exactly?

I've no idea what you're actually suggesting/demanding - is it that we should have built the M1 on stilts in the sea or that we should have put the M7 in an underground tunnel?

Could you be actually specific on what you want done? Vague rants are a waste of time.

zom · 27-01-2020 11:52AM

ncounties wrote: »

I don't think we need any monstrous sunken tubes, or colossal bridges. A high speed line from Belfast through to Cork, the Dart Expansion & Underground, a Metro line or two, a couple more Luas lines and a few hundred kilometres of decent city centre cycle infrastructure, and I think we would be the bee's knees.

If it happen at any stage, Chinese will probably be already teleporting millions of people to the stars at the same time.

27-01-2020 02:38PM

MrAbyss wrote: »

You are so typically Irish in this regarding it's soul destroying listening to the likes of you.

Truth hurts but it doesn't make it any less true

Yellow_Fern · 31-01-2020 12:46AM

cgcsb wrote: »

If people don't like the comparison to Norway because of its extreme wealth then fine, we can compare ourselves to Spain, a much poorer country than Ireland with nation wide high speed rail, extensive metro, commuter rail and tram networks can be found in most Cork sized cities. Waste collection and street cleaning is superb, there's a full national health service and they aren't taxed much differently to Ireland? Discuss.

Spain has the most high speed rail per capita but its been very expensive for them. You migh balk at cost benfit analysis but really these investments come at the expense of other investments.

zom · 31-01-2020 12:10PM

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Spain has the most high speed rail per capita but its been very expensive for them.

At the end of the day there is no cheaper option for transport than millions of private diesel cars...

bk · 31-01-2020 12:32PM

zom wrote: »

At the end of the day there is no cheaper option for transport than millions of private diesel cars...

The thing is, investing that same money in more Metro lines would likely have had a greater environmental benefit then the relatively small number of people their HSR network carries.

When looking at environmental benefits you have to look if the same money spent elsewhere would have a greater benefit.

A Cork to Belfast HSR line would cost roughly 50 Billion to build. 50bn is the same amount of money it would cost to convert every home in Ireland to an energy efficient home. Doing that would have a vastly better environmental impact then the relatively small numbers of Diesel cars that a HSR would take off the road.

hognef wrote: »

Norway does not have a superb rail system. For example, the line between the two largest cities, Oslo and Bergen, is a single track that was constructed over a 100 years ago. The same largely apples to Oslo to Trondheim (3rd largest city). Both have journey times of 6-8 hours.

I agree with everything you said in your post. But I just wanted to add, if anyone gets the chance to take the Oslo to Bergen train, take it. It will be one of the best 6 hours of your life! The views from this train route are simply SPECTACULAR. One of the top experiences of my life, I highly recommend it to everyone.

Having spent a lot of time in Norway, I can say that intercity travel is a lot poorer then here in Ireland. We have a much better motorway network then them, driving been cities there is a nightmare and there rail network is nothing to write home about either, I'd rate it slightly poorer then ours (of course excluding the views). Most people fly between cities there, which is much better developed internal network then ours.

Of course that is all due to the radical difference in geography. I'm sure the Norwegians would love to have better intercity transport, but the geography there is just insane and flying makes more sense.

On the other hand, they focus their investment heavily on excellent urban public transport, partly because it is easier to do and Norwegians tend to be more focused on city living anyway. There have far less enthusiasm for one off homes in the countryside like we do, which is understandable given the harsh conditions.

I do think there are lessons for us to learn from Norway, about planning, forward thinking, et.c But it would be very foolish to think we can replicate their infrastructure given their vast wealth.

I agree that Denmark and Copenhagen are better comparisons for us to follow. A more similar geography and wealth level.

cgcsb · 31-01-2020 11:21PM

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Spain has the most high speed rail per capita but its been very expensive for them. You migh balk at cost benfit analysis but really these investments come at the expense of other investments.

Funny you should say that because every Spanish city of any scale has excellent public transport, waste collection and water services. What suffered as a result of building good infrastructure?

hognef · 01-02-2020 12:07AM

bk wrote: »

I agree with everything you said in your post. But I just wanted to add, if anyone gets the chance to take the Oslo to Bergen train, take it. It will be one of the best 6 hours of your life! The views from this train route are simply SPECTACULAR. One of the top experiences of my life, I highly recommend it to everyone.

Certainly, and this is why NRK (the state broadcaster) made a 7 hour long minute-by-minute uninterrupted "documentary" of the journey. It might not be everybody's idea of entertainment, but it was actually quite popular at the time. Obviously doesn't come close to actually being there..:

https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dd_S_13TWn1c&ved=2ahUKEwitt9rL9K7nAhVdURUIHbhWDWMQFjADegQIChAl&usg=AOvVaw3S0MLU-Y2tbrOgUO0S04oQ

Incidentally, these 7 hours are dwarfed by the equivalent 130-hour movie of the Hurtigruten ferry journey along the Norwegian coast, from Bergen in the south to Kirkenes in the very north east.

Yellow_Fern · 01-02-2020 02:26PM

cgcsb wrote: »

Funny you should say that because every Spanish city of any scale has excellent public transport, waste collection and water services. What suffered as a result of building good infrastructure?

I cant pretent to be an expert but I cant imagine that you are correct. One area that Ireland is better than Spain is home efficiency. It is quite poor in Spain.

If self driving vehicles are coming I fear that they will make long distance trains even less good value to build. As far as I can see money should be spent on congested routes, epecially metros where self driving cars could just make congested city routes far worse.

ncounties · 02-02-2020 12:13PM

cgcsb wrote: »

Funny you should say that because every Spanish city of any scale has excellent public transport, waste collection and water services. What suffered as a result of building good infrastructure?

Their economy?

Turbohymac · 02-02-2020 01:07PM

Doesn't matter which European or uk city you compare with any irish city..the government and engineers here are just plain lazy and everything costs top dollar..even the children's hospital..wrong location to even start with if they were genuinely going to accommodate children from the 26 countries.. now another ball of money being wasted in a luas overground system in cork similar to the luas in Dublin..but nothing underground away from pedestrians and vehicles..even go to Berlin that was badly bombed in ww2 and now their u bahnn.s bahnn is happily coping with a city population of over 3.7 million people.. not far off the entire population of this defunct island and all we can provide or be happy with is the luas in Dublin..the cork Dublin train that hasn't enough carriages and is overpriced..and public buses that regularly get delayed due to traffic grid locks around our main cities..
Pointless talking there just isn't the will to correct this waste..

gjim · 02-02-2020 03:06PM

Turbohymac wrote: »

Doesn't matter which European or uk city you compare with any irish city..the government and engineers here are just plain lazy and everything costs top dollar..even the children's hospital..wrong location to even start with if they were genuinely going to accommodate children from the 26 countries.. now another ball of money being wasted in a luas overground system in cork similar to the luas in Dublin..but nothing underground away from pedestrians and vehicles..even go to Berlin that was badly bombed in ww2 and now their u bahnn.s bahnn is happily coping with a city population of over 3.7 million people.. not far off the entire population of this defunct island and all we can provide or be happy with is the luas in Dublin..the cork Dublin train that hasn't enough carriages and is overpriced..and public buses that regularly get delayed due to traffic grid locks around our main cities..
Pointless talking there just isn't the will to correct this waste..

There's a significant difference between having the "will" to correct infrastructure deficiencies and rants about cronyism, how terrible Ireland is, etc. that lack any sort of real perspective. The popularity of purple-faced indignation in Ireland over cold analysis and methodically dealing with complexity is a fundamental problem. Because the ranters always implicitly promise that there is a single obvious, simple and correct course action when the reality is far more complex. Ranting is the easy lazy option.

I'm not defending the NCH decision but I do know it involved reconciling a large number of conflicting objectives and special interests - that no solutions would satisfy everyone. That there are people unhappy with the final decision doesn't necessarily mean the decision was wrong.

But the appreciation of the complexities of decision making will never be as popular or entertaining as hearing someone rant and rave with full confidence that the rest of the world are idiots and only their perspective has validity.

Couple of points about your rant: taking the train between Cork and Dublin is not particularly expensive by any international comparison and is actually cheap in comparison with the prices charged in the UK for intercity tickets. You're admiration of Berlin fails to acknowledge their huge failures of public procurement - google Berlin Brandenburg Airport if you want to read about a debacle on a scale that couldn't even be dreamt of in Ireland - over 6 or 7 billion Euro spent, 10 years late already (for a 4 year project) and still years off opening and now it's unlikely to even replace/centralize existing Berlin airports - which was its initial justification.

If you spent much time living in other countries, you'd realize that Ireland is actually quite unexceptional by European standards - a bit better at some things, a bit worse at others (public transport).

02-02-2020 03:31PM

Vic_08 wrote: »

And they are centuries ahead of us in therms of being a wealthy independent country, we are only a few generations on from being an asset stripped, genocide ravaged colony. Compared to most of the former British Empire we are well ahead of the curve.

Can we do better than currently; absolutely, is it realistic to be anywhere near the standard of the most advanced nation on the planet; no.

Norway only gained independence in 1905. It's economy performed terribly in the late 1800s and into the early 1900s as it was predominantly agriculture/fishing+timer+maritime shipping.

Norway has fantastic natural resources, but aside from hydro they only really came into play post ww2.

Ireland was never asset stripped, wasn't a colony, and wasn't 'ravaged' by any genocide.

Keep your ahistorical nonsense to me_ira on Reddit, and maybe try stick to actual facts on here?

Ireland's economy was very strong in the period up until Independence - it was the economical policies & protectionism of the Irish governments that followed that decimated the Irish economy.

As someone who travels to Norway (particularly Oslo) 8+ times a year, comparing anything about Ireland to Norway (or Dublin to Oslo) is just ludicrous.

Diceicle · 02-02-2020 03:54PM

Would Denmark not be a better Coutry to benchmark against?

dubrov · 02-02-2020 03:58PM

I used to work with a Norwegian company who had offices in Norway and California.
There was a one way flow of employees out to California, most never returning.

So although Norway looks great on paper, it hasn't got everything right.

02-02-2020 05:35PM

dubrov wrote: »

I used to work with a Norwegian company who had offices in Norway and California.
There was a one way flow of employees out to California, most never returning.

So although Norway looks great on paper, it hasn't got everything right.

Norway's net emigration of Norwegian citizens in 2018 was 1,777 people on a population of 5.4million.

It's net migration overall was 18,103 immigrants.

Anecdotes are no replacement when official statistics are easily available.

gjim · 02-02-2020 07:15PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland's economy was very strong in the period up until Independence

That's not an entirely accurate picture. Ireland had been in relative economic decline for over a century before independence. GDP per head in Ireland was a little over half the UK average before independence. Its economy at the time - outside of a few pockets in the north - was almost completely based on low-tech/low-value-add agriculture - exporting food to the rest of the UK.

03-02-2020 01:14AM

gjim wrote: »

That's not an entirely accurate picture. Ireland had been in relative economic decline for over a century before independence. GDP per head in Ireland was a little over half the UK average before independence. Its economy at the time - outside of a few pockets in the north - was almost completely based on low-tech/low-value-add agriculture - exporting food to the rest of the UK.

Ireland had been in economic growth in the 50 years leading up to WW1 - indeed, the British-Irish real-wage gap had been narrowing (and faster than the ouput per-capita gap which had also been narrowing).

You're also incorrect, GNI per capita of the Free State was at 56% of Great Britain's in 1922 (i.e. after both a rebellion and a civil war) — 35 years later the ratio was only 49%.

I'd recommend 'Ireland: A New Economic History, 1780-1939' and to a lesser extent, 'Economy of Ireland'.

gjim · 03-02-2020 08:42AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland had been in economic growth in the 50 years leading up to WW1 - indeed, the British-Irish real-wage gap had been narrowing (and faster than the ouput per-capita gap which had also been narrowing).

You're also incorrect, GNI per capita of the Free State was at 56% of Great Britain's in 1922 (i.e. after both a rebellion and a civil war) — 35 years later the ratio was only 49%.

I'd recommend 'Ireland: A New Economic History, 1780-1939' and to a lesser extent, 'Economy of Ireland'.

I said Ireland had been in relative economic decline. Given the fact that, uniquely in Europe, Ireland's population had been falling for the previous 70 years, "narrowing the wage gap with the GB" which is a per-capita measure does not invalidate that claim.

I claimed Ireland had little over half of the GDP per head at the time of independence - you say this is incorrect it was 56%? I've no idea what your point is here - is 56% not "little over half"?

And it feels like you're just looking for argument since I said nothing about the post-independence economy.

Norweigian Infrastucture Compared to Irish

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