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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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    #4712
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,041 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    thebaz wrote: »
    Selecting Murray over Cooney and POM over Deegan, are conservative selections

    There has to be a balance between radical and conservative.

    There are seven changes between this starting fifteen and the one named against Scotland at this time last year.

    Guys like Stockdale, Larmour and Conway are still relatively green at international level so they need experienced around them. In the forwards, that back row has me very, very excited and I can see them doing untold damage. Put onto that the hard carrying of Henderson, Ryan, church and furlong...with kelleher from the bench too.

    In all its an enthusiastic and progressive selection for me, now let's see how they go and play.


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    #4713
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,710 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Listened to Andy Dunne on Second Captains. He's another that seems to think Farrell and Lancaster share a similar ethos for attacking rugby. Expects to see a more Leinster like attack this season. Specifically how not everything will go through Sexton. He'll obviously be the main playmaker, but the forwards and other backs will take more ownership of how and when we strike.


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    #4714
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,210 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Teams looks reasonable, would have liked to see Cooney get the start. Hard to judge Scotland, neither a good performance from them or a complete shambles would surprise me.


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    #4715
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,481 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Having a debutant 8 and a debutant 9 could cause problems, Murray starting is a good idea. Doris now has experience on all sides of him which is a good idea.


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    #4716
    almostover
    Registered Users Posts: 1,970 ✭✭✭almostover


    The Rooster wrote: »
    The choice was POM or Deegan. Neither of them could properly cover 2nd row at international level.

    I'd have JOD ahead of Deegan in the 20 shirt if POM was to be dropped out of the squad. Excellent lineout operator, great at maul defence and tireless in defence. Has been out playing POM at Munster this season and is in fine form. Plays 6 best, 8 well and 7 at a push. More physically developed than Deegan too. Remember Deegan is playing in an all-star Leinster team who have slayed all before them so far this season. Let's see what he's made of vs. Saracens in the QFs. JOD has been impressive in a very average Munster side.


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    #4717
    Downlinz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭Downlinz


    Granny15 wrote: »
    One things for sure if Murray goes back into box kicking mode and giving away possession I hope Farrell hooks him. I’m sure there is a game plan but I think the players are given freedom to operate inside that plan and sometimes take decisions that may not be in the best interest of the teams attacking position.

    Those are some extreme lengths to avoid criticising Schmidt's gameplan. It was his insistence on a box kicking exit strategy, blaming the player for carrying out the gameplan is pointless.


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    #4718
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    Looks like Thornley's lost his in again.


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    #4719
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,132 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Bazzo wrote: »
    Looks like Thornley's lost his in again.
    Np, he didn't get the memo and had it in his diary to turn up at Thursday training to do his bib analysis. D'Oh!


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    #4720
    Granny15
    Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    Downlinz wrote: »
    Those are some extreme lengths to avoid criticising Schmidt's gameplan. It was his insistence on a box kicking exit strategy, blaming the player for carrying out the gameplan is pointless.

    It’s not the exit strategy that I’m criticising. It’s kicking ball away when we are in attacking areas of the field. Schmidt said everything was mostly player driven. From that I took not only training sessions but also on field decision making. To choose to kick the ball away in the opponents half in my view lands on Murray’s shoulders. He may have an excuse though with our continuous bludgeon game plan marching us backwards towards our own try line and substituting that’s with a territory game.


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    #4721
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    molloyjh wrote: »
    POM dropping to the bench is a big change based on history.

    In the history of the state apparantly. All calm on the surface at the announcement, but that tells nothing of all the behind the scenes drama that may have gone on late yesterday and earlier today.
    Did Andy threaten to resign if he couldnt leave POM out of the 23 ? Was there a superinjunction granted late last night ? Did the IRFU really risk losing their stake in Lansdowne Rd because of it ? Constitutional crisis, with emergency meeting of the cabinet going on until the early hours of the morning? Was it really a done deal a one stage that Munster was seceeding from Ireland ? Were troops really sent to aras an uachtarain this morning ? With what purpose ?
    Perhaps we shall never know the full events. POM makes the 23, and everything is smoothed over. For now. Or is it only a late compromise while negotiations for a dropping continue behind the scenes ?


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    #4722
    tototoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭tototoe


    Granny15 wrote: »
    Schmidt said everything was mostly player driven.

    He might have said it but dont think anyone is buying that line tbh. With everything we now know, everything players have said etc.. its clear that was not the case,
    . Joe was the boss.


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    #4723
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Granny15 wrote: »
    It’s not the exit strategy that I’m criticising. It’s kicking ball away when we are in attacking areas of the field. Schmidt said everything was mostly player driven. From that I took not only training sessions but also on field decision making. To choose to kick the ball away in the opponents half in my view lands on Murray’s shoulders. He may have an excuse though with our continuous bludgeon game plan marching us backwards towards our own try line and substituting that’s with a territory game.

    Think you live in an alternate reality to everyone else. This is the complete opposite to everything we've ever heard about Joe Schmidt from anyone involved in rugby.

    Players are told exactly what to do and when to do it , and they don't play if they don't do what they're told.

    Conor Murray box kicked a lot because Joe Schmidt instructed him to box kick a lot.


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    #4724
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,132 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    awec wrote: »

    Conor Murray box kicked a lot because Joe Schmidt instructed him to box kick a lot.
    It's an exit strategy he uses for Munster as well. In fact it's an exit strategy most teams use. And we've been out box-kicked in successive 6N championships by England. So whether he was told to do so by Schmidt or not, it's not exactly the damning indictment you seem to think it is.


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    #4725
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Scottish rugby really is in a bad way. The disrespect Russell is showing Townsend is unreal, and as much as I think he has a reputation of having serious notions about himself, I can't see him giving the two fingers to Townsend to the extend that he is without knowing he isn't the only one unhappy.

    Ireland get an early score or two and I really see Scotland folding. Townsend has been getting the excuses in, keeps referencing how seldom Ireland lose in the Aviva. He was talking about the next world cup and unprompted said "whoever is coaching Scotland".

    He looks resigned to his fate.


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    #4726
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    It's an exit strategy he uses for Munster as well. In fact it's an exit strategy most teams use. And we've been out box-kicked in successive 6N championships by England. So whether he was told to do so by Schmidt or not, it's not exactly the damning indictment you seem to think it is.

    I didn't mean it was a damning indictment, just took issue with the notion that he was doing it off his own bat.


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    #4727
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    awec wrote: »
    Think you live in an alternate reality to everyone else. This is the complete opposite to everything we've ever heard about Joe Schmidt from anyone involved in rugby.

    Players are told exactly what to do and when to do it , and they don't play if they don't do what they're told.

    Conor Murray box kicked a lot because Joe Schmidt instructed him to box kick a lot.

    Darren Cave did an interview with Billy Burns a few weeks ago and referenced that exact thing of Schmidt's camps being labeled as "player-driven". He said Joe completely ruled the roost in sessions and it was player-driven in that senior players were the ones pulling people up if they weren't putting the effort in. But Joe was the master-puppeteer for certain, anyone who's ever mentioned Joe talks about his meticulous gameplans and strategies.


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    #4728
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Re. box kicking, back around 2014/15 sort of time we became incredibly good at getting the ball back after a box kick. It's obviously something all teams use but we lost whatever edge we had over other teams there for sure.


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    #4729
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,132 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    awec wrote: »
    I didn't mean it was a damning indictment, just took issue with the notion that he was doing it off his own bat.
    Well as an example of Joe Schmidt laying down the law to players as to what they must do, it's not exactly a standout. The most annoying stat for me is the number of posts on this forum that accuse Ireland of excessive box-kicking. I'm not a fan of it myself, but I see the need for it and it really hasn't been any sort of an issue statistically for a very long time.


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    #4730
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,132 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Re. box kicking, back around 2014/15 sort of time we became incredibly good at getting the ball back after a box kick. It's obviously something all teams use but we lost whatever edge we had over other teams there for sure.
    One word. Blockers. Teams just block the chasers and it's often hard to even get a tackle in on their fielder.


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    #4731
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,041 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Well as an example of Joe Schmidt laying down the law to players as to what they must do, it's not exactly a standout. The most annoying stat for me is the number of posts on this forum that accuse Ireland of excessive box-kicking. I'm not a fan of it myself, but I see the need for it and it really hasn't been any sort of an issue statistically for a very long time.

    We havent kicked the ball excessively for about 3 years now... in fact we kick an awful lot less than other 6Ns teams.

    anyone who accuses us of over kicking the ball doesnt know what they are looking at.

    and on that topic, i expect Farrell to be quite pragmatic and to retain the box kick as a valid exit strategy in our 22


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    #4732
    Granny15
    Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    Noted on Joes orders. I hope Farrell doesn’t order the same but I feel regardless we will see Murray do it on more than 3 occasions outside our 22 on Saturday.

    But again I stress it is not box kicking inside the 22 I was referencing but outside it. It’s not only a valid tactic inside out 22 but advantageous to take pressure off the outhalf and it’s a second/first exit option for the team to have.

    I think we do it too much outside 22. I would order the scrum half to never boxkick outside 22 unless they have no winger covering backfield.

    To say we didn’t use the tactic too much is naive. It’s one of the areas opposition coaches pointed out as targeting when playing us - Eddie Jones being one. Win the high ball game and beat Ireland. If that’s not an indictment that we used it too much that teams figured us out then I don’t know what is.


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    #4733
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I get accused of the Joe Schmidt fan base. People seem to have very short memories. He was and still is best coach Ireland has ever had. He won more than any other coach at a provincial and international level. He was an exceptional coach.

    Ok at the end it didnt work out but I do find strange the way people are so quick to forget the good times and concentrate on the bad. Which to be honest was small compared to overall time.

    It does seem the answer to everything is slag off Joe and his approach. I personally think that is stupid. He won more than any other Irish coach before him and maybe going ahead of him. He played a game to win match's, and it worked, we loved the good times as fans

    It seems the Irish fan thinks its ok to slag off every former Irish coach, Kidney, Sullivan and and now Schmidt.

    I would prefer to say, Thank you Joe. It was great while it lasted. We have exceptional days and nights watching your rugby. Now its time for a new team and lets home they carry on with the success you brought to Ireland.


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    #4734
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,141 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    He failed in his two biggest tests and it’s only natural that’s what some take away in the main. Japan was just awful and the ultimate capitulation to New Zealand total. There’s nothing to be overly surprised by.


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    #4735
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,582 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I get accused of the Joe Schmidt fan base. People seem to have very short memories. He was and still is best coach Ireland has ever had.

    It seems the Irish fan thinks its ok to slag off every former Irish coach, Kidney, Sullivan and and now Schmidt.

    I would prefer to say, Thank you Joe. It was great while it lasted. We have exceptional days and nights watching your rugby. Now its time for a new team and lets home they carry on with the success you brought to Ireland.

    it lasted a year too long , he became inflexible and sort of choked the team in 2019 with conservative selections and tactics, that ultimatly failed on the biggest stage.
    Prior to 2019, he was outstanding and best coach by some, but his last year put a dampener on his legacy , and doing a book so soon after was poor judgement.


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    #4736
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,143 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I agree that it was time to move on from Joe (as did Joe), but exorcising Joeball!? Really!? For starters we didnt just have a singular game plan under Joe. It varied over time with some pillars that remained consistent like accuracy at ruck time etc. The accuracy most definitely should not be exorcised.

    While we relied heavily on prescripted patterns, that worked really well for us. Our issues last year weren't game plan related. They were mental. And they existed within the playing and the coaching group. We lost our accuracy, our confidence and we lost the battle up front as a result.

    Now obviously Joe made errors and was part of the problem last year. This isnt a post refusing to allow critique of the Messiah. And we'd probably gone as far as we can under him (which was pretty far to be fair). Now we need something else. We need to develop leadership within the group that prevents the breakdown between coaches and players last season. Joes control over everything would only hamper that. We have a dangerous back 3 now that we need to get into the game more and have ball players in the pack more than ever before. We need to build on that too. But language like excorise is a bit much. We've shown ourselves as much as anyone else that we're capable of being the best in the world. That's what Joe's legacy will be. Now we have to develop our squad to build on that belief.

    Good post but I do not agree! We were predictable and one dimensional! We were frustratingly bad at playing heads up rugby. We were ingrained with a pattern, a system that was all too easily met and defeated. Joe was a good coach he moved us up the ladder, but there was no innovation or even a back up plan to right the ship when poop was flying.
    If I was to have one really major criticism of Joe, it would be the reliance on Murray and Sexton. Nobody else really got a look in and here we are again, both of them starting!! I stand by the exorcism comment! We need an enema and a varied approach for the future!
    Of course, it's only one man's opinion.


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    #4737
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,143 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    This weeks selection? I don't know what to think!
    Herring gets 1st dibs on the 2 Jersey. Doris beats out Deegan! Murray stays in the XV! Henshaw on the bench. We'll wait and see!


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    #4738
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,145 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    This weeks selection? I don't know what to think!
    Herring gets 1st dibs on the 2 Jersey. Doris beats out Deegan! Murray stays in the XV! Henshaw on the bench. We'll wait and see!

    Starting XV is good IMO. Few changes to freshen things up, Stander to 6 and a 2nd ball carrier in the back row.

    Back 3 can do damage if we get them enough decent ball.

    Bench has a bit of a safety net at 19 and 20 especially as the sub Hooker is a new cap. I would have preferred to see Deegan involved but it was never going to be widespread changes.

    The big test will be how AF uses the bench. If Cooney gets the token 3 minutes at the end then it's disappointing. I hope he gets a minimum 20 minutes.


    Can't wait to see how we go at weekend now. Hopefully we see a bit more flexibility in the game plan


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    #4739
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,996 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Will they be in camp in Portugal for the entire tournament, or just until the first match?


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    #4740
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,041 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Will they be in camp in Portugal for the entire tournament, or just until the first match?

    They should be back in Ireland today


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    #4741
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Just looking at a first vs seconds is interesting.

    1st Choice|2nd Choice
    Cian Healy|Dave Kilcoyne
    Rob Herring|Ronan Kelleher
    Tadgh Furlong|Andrew Porter
    Iain Henderson|Devin Toner
    James Ryan|Ultan Dillane
    CJ Stander|Peter O'Mahony
    Josh van der Flier|Jack O'Donoghue
    Caelan Doris|Max Deegan
    |
    Conor Murray|John Cooney
    Jonathan Sexton|Ross Byrne
    Jacob Stockdale|Keith Earls
    Bundee Aki|Robbie Henshaw
    Garry Ringrose|Chris Farrell
    Andrew Conway|Dave Kearney
    Jordan Larmour|Will Addison


    Our second string backline actually looks good, given the injury to Carbery especially. But our second strong pack less so. I suppose if you factor in Leavy and Conans injuries that does improve things somewhat. But other than the front row the above isnt great. We will probably need to rely on the first choice guys staying fit really.


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