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S&C classes tailored specifically for runners
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20-01-2020 6:14pm#1
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I've been debating this issue as I get to the midway point of the Hanson marathon plan. It's all based on cumulative fatigue so I was worried about overdoing S&C work. Have been doing my own stuff on session days to leave easy/recovery days easy.
Just wondering what peoples views on rowing machine work as a form strength training?
Edit:
I'm no expert either but running alone can cause imbalances that lead to injury. In my case I ended up getting 2 MRIs to get to the bottom of a problem that ended up being cured by a program of strength work. As for people doing S&C to avoid going out and running....I don't think you'll find many here that come under that category, most have to force themselves to do S&C because getting out and running is what they would prefer IMO.
I would say rowing machine is more endurance than strength work. If you are at 30 strokes per minute that is not really strength work. It might work as some form of cross training on easy days though.
I think I disagree on running causing imbalances. If you are at appropriate body weight and don't have pre-existing issues it will not cause imbalances. What imbalance can running cause that is of relevance to a runner? If you train at inappropriate volume/intensity or have other issues that's another story.
I appreciate the some specific strengthening helped you and I am all for that. But I assume it was targeted and specific to you and your injury.
My main issue is with personal trainers in gyms, who themselves have no idea about running and then recommending programs and exercises to people who don't really know what they need.I completely get where you are coming from and in my opinion you have answered the reason why it is invaluable.
Strength and conditioning is more important now than it was 40 years ago for a couple of reasons
- more office jobs, longer commutes and more sedentary lives in general
- more people these days are coming back to the sport as opposed to growing up on it ie fundamental development of movements and aerobic base
- we don’t eat as health as previously due to convenience foods and time constraints meaning that the profile of the average runner in terms of weight is different now than it was 40 years ago (and in fact the general population overall)
Most people realistically can’t handle the mileage they need to be doing without breaking down injuries and this is where strength and conditioning comes into play it should be a more controlled and purposeful movement than simply bonking on a long run and letting gravity take over in terms of form and ground contact.
I do agree with you that it is a catch all term and as a result a lot of what is perceived as strength and conditioning has little carry over in terms of specificity but if it is done in tangent with the training it will improve runner. Problem is it’s seen as an either or and that is where people fall down as they go for one or the other.
Conditioning can be as simple as strides and hill reps or can be as complex as power cleans but the normal notion of a couple of planks transforming your running is one that I think we are thankfully starting to move away from somewhat
I can't really disagree with you, but for the sake of discussion I'll try
With respect to the mileage, why can't people handle it?
It can take an elite runner several years to adapt to the marathon from doing 5/10,000m on the track. This is from an already high base.
The lure of the marathon is pulling people in who have only a few years of running experience. Most have nowhere near tapped their potential at 5k or shorter. Many were semi sedentary before starting to run in adulthood, their bodies just have not had time to adapt to running and they begin a marathon plan!
Far from running causing imbalances, majority of people need to run more, but be more patient. Don't do a marathon until you have 8-10 years under your belt. Nobody wants to hear that.
Is strength work just a short cut (or a work around) that we use to compensate for the fact that the average marathoner does not have the lifetime mileage required to take on the distance.0 -
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IvoryTower wrote: »Okay you seem quite knowledgeable Ceepo, what do you make of my routine
Done at home, I have a thick band, kettlebells and a floor
Bulgarian Squats - quads
single leg rdl - hamstrings
weighted glute bridges - bum (also find them great for runners knee)
Eccentric Calf Raises - essential to protect your Achilles imo
Hip Flexor band work - I started them a few weeks before my 400 pb so i love them ever since(band around shin, knee up, push foot forward)
finish up with 3 x hip movement/strength routine(ive a desk job and I feel they help)
ill add core work, just hate it for some reason. If i could only do one exercise it would be eccentric calf raises.
I certainly no s&c expert that's for sure. What i do look at is how we move.
All your above excersis are for specific muscle groups, done in isolation but none of them intergate, or translate into gait, and with out seeing you doing some of them it's very hard to know if you are doing them without using a compensation.
Doing these type s&c is like buying all the individual components to make a car, building it at home but not having the dcu (computer) attached to make it work.
If you look at the gait cycle, no part of it works on isolation.
It work by contralateral movement, left leg out right arm out and vice versa.
You also need to have rotation when you walk or run, and this rotation will happen at some phase of the gait cycle, for some it will be the knee, for others the hip but it should come from the t-spine.
Try standing in front of a mirror and rotating you ribcage left or right without moving your hips. This simple move is incredibly hard for some people to do.
Just to take some of your example excersis above and critical look at them from a gait perspective.
Glute bridge.
Assuming you are lying on the floor, knees bent and lifting your hip up (bilateral extension), add in a weight to add resistance. While it can be argued that this building glute strength, this is not how the hips work, in reality one hip goes into flexion as the other goes into extension. To take it further because you are lying on the floor you take the need for the core to stop the spine from going into flexion or extension.
The function of the core is to stabilise the spine, but in your excersis you are using the floor to do it.
Hip flexor with band.
Where is your leg starting point for these and where are your hips. ?. Are they in neutral, Anterior pelvic shift, or tilt ??
Where are you pulling the band from?
This will have a impact on how you perform it.
Other things you need to take into account is, if you bring your knee up ( this is knee flexion) you need to have the resistance from hip extension (taking a straight line from centre of rib cage to centre of hip and your leg behind this line ) all through hip flexion, keeping the spine from moving into extension or flexion ( in neutral) while carrying out the exercise.
Calf raise.
Say you do 3 sets of 30 eccentric/concentric on each leg. This adds up to 90 in total which approx the number of steps you intake in 1 minute of running. How many steps do you take over 5k 10k etc... ??
You probably do these on a step, lifting up and down. What action does you calves do when you run? Do you want them to lift you up ?
While there is value is having strong muscles there is better value in moving right. Getting the body to move as one unit. Getting t-spine rotation while in knee flexion, the core stabilise the trunk, while at the same time getting the contralateral glute to bring the hip into hyperextension.
Hope this gives you some in sight to my thoughts
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Both started when I upped my mileage, switched from sprinting to middle distance. Bit of strength work, sorted. I would say if I was to look deeper, tight calves certainly an issue, but i'm moving well so no need to tinker at the moment.
I think you might be on to something BUT, I have watched countless professionals weightlifting, I wouldn't discount working muscles in isolation. They might not be the perfect exercise but for us average joes, just having a general overall strength goes a long way to avoiding injury and performing well. No need to complicate it, certainly on this forum where pretty much everyone is a master runner, some simple calisthenics at home would do the job just right.
I know you wont agree but nice chatting anyway 0 -
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Specifically for runners - I'm not looking for a sixpackCan you clarify what "specifically for runners" is and how does that differ from regular s&c.
When you say you're sore, what muscles specifically are sore?..
Edit.. I probably should have said muscle groups like quads, hamstring, glutes etc rather that individual muscles Glutes, quads, hamstrings - the person I'm working with has a lot of runners and is also a physio. He knows where the injuries come from and is looking to strengthen the areas to try and reduce the risk of injury as well as strengthen the areas. I'm finding the glutes the sorest so far! (apologies for the late reply!) 0 -
Specifically for runners - I'm not looking for a sixpack Glutes, quads, hamstrings - the person I'm working with has a lot of runners and is also a physio. He knows where the injuries come from and is looking to strengthen the areas to try and reduce the risk of injury as well as strengthen the areas. I'm finding the glutes the sorest so far! (apologies for the late reply!)
So basically hip flexion/extension, leg flexion/extension type exercises with little or no upper body excersis. Would that be a fair assessment0 -
IvoryTower wrote: »Both started when I upped my mileage, switched from sprinting to middle distance. Bit of strength work, sorted. I would say if I was to look deeper, tight calves certainly an issue, but i'm moving well so no need to tinker at the moment.
I think you might be on to something BUT, I have watched countless professionals weightlifting, I wouldn't discount working muscles in isolation. They might not be the perfect exercise but for us average joes, just having a general overall strength goes a long way to avoiding injury and performing well. No need to complicate it, certainly on this forum where pretty much everyone is a master runner, some simple calisthenics at home would do the job just right.
I know you wont agree but nice chatting anyway
There is probably a 50/50 chance of the stretching comportment part of doing the eccentric heal drop that helped you Achilles as much as the strengthen part of it. While we know you upped the millage this might explain why you and some soreness in you calves and knees, but why ?? are you quad dominant ?? are your calves overworking ??
Forgive me not holding up weightlifters as people who move well. They might be well able to lift a heavy weight but that doesn't mean they can move well.
Again its not really a matter of whether i agree or disagree, thats not really relevant, it's about what is the optimal way of moving, so that we minimize the risk of injury and maximize efficiency.0 -
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chasingpaper wrote: »Good post I agree with basically everything and am picking up new info, thanks.On the exercises I mentioned, nordics, eccentric rdls, or calf raises. They would be included for a specific purpose, to produce a growth/corrective remodelling of the tendon tissue. In controlled eccentric overloading there is research that shows the growth of new tendon tissue is better aligned, which is useful for people suffering tendonitis. Running (or other faster contraction exercises) also stimulates the tendon but the regrowth is more likely to be disorganised, which is a problem for people prone to Achilles problems. These eccentrics are not to directly translate to running but might make someone more resilient to injury.
You are of course correct to say that some of the above will produce growth in tendons and this has to be a good thing, but ONLY if the muscle attached to the tendon is 1, doing the job it's should be doing 2, that its not overworking or compensating for another muscle.
The question is why is the a problem in the 1st place. If you take high hamstring tendinopthy a very common reason for this happening is lack of glute function. The proximal fibers of the hamstring can act has a hip extender.
Another reason can be form Anterior pelvic tilt. We see this a lot in Gaa players who struggle with hamstring issues.
Again I think you are aware of my views on thisApart from looking for specific physical adaptions like the above I don't know if a distance runner needs to lift weights at all.I do come back to specificity and what is specific.
Someone might do hops as a plyometric type exercise.
Hops on one leg might seem more specific, and it is for stabilizing and landing mechanics. But two legged might be more specific relative to ground conact time and forces.
The problem with doing plyometric type exercise is that in general they will develop existing muscles and moving patterns and don't change the existing way of moving. So to take the above example of a person that has inhibited glute and is using the hamstring to compensate, they will still use their hamstring to do the movement.With respect to youths and beginners I am thinking from a throws/sprint perspective. If you have a young shotputter who only benches 100kg and he gets that to 150, it will probably carry over very well to his throws. Going from 150 to 200 might take twice as much effort in the gym and have half the carry over. This time would probably be best spent with more specific exercises, throws, different weighted shots etc.
As these are power event's they will of course benefit from having increased strength. But they would also benefit from incorporating their movement system. The arm doesn't move independent of the shoulder, torso or legs while preforming the throw.
Same as a sprinter who is relatively weak, getting the squat up might carry over to acceleration. But it will reach a point of diminishing returns.I agree that for a distance runner the benefits for lifting are minimal unless it is really to retrain gait cycle because force production will never really be a limiting factor. But I would not have expertise to recognise those issues and implement a corrective.
Does/ can lifting retrain gait?. I haven't seen anything to say it can.
I did come across this study which showed no changes in gait
" The data presented in this study
suggest that strengthening alone
may be insufficient to alter abnormal movement patterns of the lower extremities during running. Despite large
and significant gains in the strength of
the hip abductors and hip external rotators, no changes were seen in abnormal hip mechanics during running"
https://www.jospt.org/doi/pdf/10.2519/jospt.2011.3470
I have to also point out that a lot of these type of studies aren't great as they can not take into account the many variable's of gait.
Even if you take 8 people on the start line of the 100m final say out of the 8, 4 are 6 foot tall, of them some might have inside leg of 31" some 32" some 33", so everyone will have their individual anomalies.In all of this the lifting would be accessory. At least 80% of training time should be doing the sport or drills related to the sport.
Agreed and probably more.
For the questions directed at me, I don't have a clue! I just read bits and pieces, have a little experience running and some experience lifting.
The answer is similar to recruitment of muscles I mentioned earlier, but it is a step in the right direction.For multiplaner movement I would say it should be addressed in drills, warm ups, cooldowns, play, where there is running, changing direction etc.
Of course I would say it should beI don't know if it needs to be addressed specifically?
Anyone with a background in Physio, Physical, NMT S&C etc will have some knowledge of POS/AOS systems but the vast majority will look past it and concentrate on specific muscle group's in isolation.Not really sure about the anterior/posterior slings, is this is reference to fascia?
It would be well worth your while to look up the work of Tom Myers Anatomy Trains.I am interested, could you give an example of a gait issue and gait specific exercise? I think it would help people on the forum. We are bombarded with running specific/sport specific stuff all over the internet. I am not sure what people mean when they say specific. Is it joint angle specific, contraction time specific, plane specific, etc
I'll get back to you on this when i have more time;)0
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