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President Donald Trump - Formal Impeachment Inquiry Announced

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Comments

  • #3962
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Bolton saying Trump told him that he wouldn't be releasing the aid unless the Biden-Burisma controversy was investigated certainly lends weight to the democrats' case for sure (a game changer as I called it a couple of months back) but it all depends on just exactly what it was that Trump said to (or even around) Bolton.

    For example, if it's just that Trump was adamant that he wouldn't believe Zelensky was different to other Ukraine leaders unless he took steps to show it and those steps Trump believed should involve him giving assurances that Ukraine would look into the incidents of Ukraine corruption which directly affected and impacted the US (such as the last administration's meddling in the 2016 election and the Burisma-Biden controversy for example). Well, that's not really going to be enough (imv) as I can't see the GOP caring about that, on the contrary, and tbf we know as much already from the call transcript that Trump clearly wanted those issues looked into by Ukraine.

    However, if Bolton claims that Trump was saying that Ukraine wasn't getting the aid until Zelensky made it clear they/he would investigate the two issues of corruption of interest to the US, BUT only BECAUSE Trump felt it would hinder Biden's chances in 2020 (and enhance his) well then that's a different matter entirely. If Bolton gave evidence along those lines, well then that's a game changer for sure as it would clearly support the charge that he was using his position for personal political gain.

    Without such evidence though from Bolton (or even Mulvaney) then can't see it mattering all that much. Showing that there would be a general overall benefit for Trump in 2020 from such investigations being undertaken by Ukraine won't cut it as it's too easy to argue that such a benefit is incidental in nature, as opposed to an objective.

    Gonna be interesting what happens next for sure. I'd say this will at least result in some republicans now voting for witnesses to be allowed.


  • #3963
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1221663763138588672
    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1221663764971491329


  • #3964
    hetuzozaho
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,840 ✭✭✭hetuzozaho


    Well if Trump says he didn't then he probably did.


  • #3965
    duploelabs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,037 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1221663763138588672
    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1221663764971491329

    Well that's me definitely convinced that we don't need witnesses in the senate trial :s


  • #3966
    woohoo!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 803 ✭✭✭woohoo!!!


    Trump did meet Z at the UN. Dems stated that this occurred last week in the Senate. There's tv footage of them meeting. So yet again Trump cannot help lying. Bolton and Rudy need to testify and be questioned.


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  • #3967
    Cody montana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,607 ✭✭✭Cody montana


    Bolton must testify.


  • #3968
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,868 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    There's no way that the timing of the release of the excerpts from the book was coincidental.

    Does Bolton want to get involved? And why?


  • #3969
    Call me Al
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    osarusan wrote: »
    There's no way that the timing of the release of the excerpts from the book was coincidental.

    Does Bolton want to get involved? And why?

    Maybe because he's grown a backbone?
    Maybe because he has recognised that the person in the White House is dishonest and is lying about the whole thing?
    Maybe because he doesn't want his reputation linked to, and ruined by, this scandal?
    Or maybe trump is telling the truth.. he wants to sell books?
    Or maybe all of the above, or none of them.


  • #3970
    kilns
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    Call me Al wrote: »
    Maybe because he's grown a backbone?
    Maybe because he has recognised that the person in the White House is dishonest and is lying about the whole thing?
    Maybe because he doesn't want his reputation linked to, and ruined by, this scandal?
    Or maybe trump is telling the truth.. he wants to sell books?
    Or maybe all of the above, or none of them.

    Bolton is selling a book simple as

    It has been reported this morning that the white house are going to apply for a restraining order to stop him talking


  • #3971
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,567 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    kilns wrote: »
    Bolton is selling a book simple as

    It has been reported this morning that the white house are going to apply for a restraining order to stop him talking

    He hasn't been talking, the White House had the book for a month, his lawyer is claiming the leak came from there.


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  • #3972
    Call me Al
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    kilns wrote: »
    Bolton is selling a book simple as

    It has been reported this morning that the white house are going to apply for a restraining order to stop him talking

    It's not simple as anything!

    Bolton hasn't been allowed testify.
    Their reaction to him smacks of complete desperation on the part of the WH, and fear on the part of Trump.


  • #3973
    kilns
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    Boggles wrote: »
    He hasn't been talking, the White House had the book for a month, his lawyer is claiming the leak came from there.

    However after that bombshell, how can republican senators not allow witnesses and he would be first up now, so he will have to talk but Trump is determined for him not to. To be honest even if Bolton said he okd the worst of the worst crimes the republicans will still back him, they are in so deep


  • #3974
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,567 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    kilns wrote: »
    However after that bombshell, how can republican senators not allow witnesses and he would be first up now, so he will have to talk but Trump is determined for him not to. To be honest even if Bolton said he okd the worst of the worst crimes the republicans will still back him, they are in so deep

    They will do what they have done since Trump took office. Tell lies and push conspiracy theories.


  • #3975
    Hande hoche!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,949 ✭✭✭Hande hoche!


    osarusan wrote: »
    There's no way that the timing of the release of the excerpts from the book was coincidental.

    Does Bolton want to get involved? And why?

    Flogging the book. Plus he never got his war with Iran, so he might be hoping for starting one with the next administration.


  • #3976
    woohoo!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 803 ✭✭✭woohoo!!!


    Trump continues to dig by yet more lies. Congress did in fact seek Bolton to testify.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1221764212873224193?s=19


  • #3977
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,567 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    He is scared shítless of Bolton.

    I wonder will there be a deal done in the background to keep him quiet.

    Bolton was very quick from the start to distance himself from the "drug deal" and making sure people were aware he had nothing to do with it.

    That evidence has all ready been presented to the House and Senate.


  • #3978
    manual_man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,267 ✭✭✭✭manual_man


    woohoo!!! wrote: »
    Trump continues to dig by yet more lies. Congress did in fact seek Bolton to testify.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1221764212873224193?s=19
    Bluster and nonsense. They never subpoenaed him. The Senate's only duty is to try the case provided to them by the House. If the House wishes to relitigate in The House it is their prerogative to do so. It is not The Senate's duty to gather additional information - information which The House declined to pursue.


  • #3979
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,567 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    manual_man wrote: »
    Bluster and nonsense. They never subpoenaed him. The Senate's only duty is to try the case provided to them by the House. If the House wishes to relitigate in The House it is their prerogative to do so. It is not The Senate's duty to gather additional information - information which The House declined to pursue.

    There was no point, they all ready blocked several subpoenas.

    Also Trump made it pretty clear he wasn't going to corporate at any level with the process.
    For these reasons, President Trump and his Administration reject your baseless, unconstitutional efforts to overturn the democratic process. Your unprecedented actions have left the President with no choice. In order to fulfill his duties to the American people, the Constitution, the Executive Branch, and all future occupants of the Office of the Presidency, President Trump and his Administration cannot participate in your partisan and unconstitutional
    inquiry under these circumstances.

    This is all part of the trial.

    The house did invite Bolton to testify, so yes King Trump is indeed telling more lies.

    The excuse for not calling at least Bolton as a witness just went out the window.


  • #3980
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,953 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Boggles wrote: »
    There was no point, they all ready blocked several subpoenas.

    Also Trump made it pretty clear he wasn't going to corporate at any level with the process.



    This is all part of the trial.

    The house did invite Bolton to testify, so yes King Trump is indeed telling more lies.

    The excuse for not calling at least Bolton as a witness just went out the windows.

    Would that be lie 16001?


  • #3981
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,567 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Would that be lie 16001?

    Alternative reality.

    Everyone is telling lies apart from the man who can't speak without lying.

    Again for those at the back, the is the party of law and order, the Republican party removing Impeachment from the constitution and giving America a King.


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  • #3982
    manual_man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,267 ✭✭✭✭manual_man


    Boggles wrote: »
    There was no point, they all ready blocked several subpoenas
    You mean they asserted standard executive privelige? Like all other administrations have done? This is called Separation of Powers, as outlined and in the Constitution, and is designed to ensure no one branch of government (Executive Branch/The House/The Senate) oversteps its mark and abuses its authority. The courts make the ultimate decision when there is disagreement between branches of government. The House rushed to an impeachment vote, citing urgency and overwhelming proof of guilt. They then sat on the articles of impeachment for a month and are now demanding documents and witnesses that they declined to pursue in the process they controlled in the House.

    Cry me a river.


  • #3983
    notobtuse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Pretty please with sugar on top? Wow... some powerful request to testify!

    House investigators could have subpoenaed Bolton to testify as they did with Charles Kupperman, a top aide to national security adviser John Bolton. Both he and Bolton stated they would testify if a court ordered them to comply with a subpoena. Normal course of action regarding the separation of powers. But the House impeachment investigators withdrew their subpoena for Kupperman, even though judge Richard Leon had agreed to an expedited schedule. The judge gave a statement even after the House dropped the subpoena “The House clearly has no intention of pursuing Kupperman, and his claims are thus moot.” I guess the democrats didn’t think their testimony was ultimately necessary… that is until they realized they had no case, evidently.

    Don’t blame the Senate because the House rushed their articles and did a lousy job. Anyway, it gives Democrats reason for their next impeachment push against Orange Man Bad… which might have been their goal all along.

    Viva la perpetual investigations?

    The trial needs to take place on the House investigator’s case they presented. Otherwise it will become an even bigger farce than it already is.

    Recent history of assertions of executive privilege … Kennedy twice, Johnson 3 times, Nixon 4 times, Ford once, Carter once, Reagan 3 times, GHWBush once, Clinton a whopping 14 times, GWBush 5 times, and Obama once in response to congressional investigation into Operation Fast and Furious. Should they all have been impeached? Or just Trump? Maybe 14 assertions of executive privilege should be the threshold for impeachment. ;)

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • #3984
    kilns
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    manual_man wrote: »
    You mean they asserted standard executive privelige? Like all other administrations have done? This is called Separation of Powers, as outlined and in the Constitution, and is designed to ensure no one branch of government (Executive Branch/The House/The Senate) oversteps its mark and abuses its authority. The courts make the ultimate decision when there is disagreement between branches of government. The House rushed to an impeachment vote, citing urgency and overwhelming proof of guilt. They then sat on the articles of impeachment for a month and are now demanding documents and witnesses that they declined to pursue in the process they controlled in the House.

    Cry me a river.

    I would refer you to the constitution which differs. Even Nixon who fought hard on executive privledge admitted that congress under the impeachment act supercedes executive priviledge


  • #3985
    woohoo!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 803 ✭✭✭woohoo!!!


    manual_man wrote: »
    Bluster and nonsense. They never subpoenaed him. The Senate's only duty is to try the case provided to them by the House. If the House wishes to relitigate in The House it is their prerogative to do so. It is not The Senate's duty to gather additional information - information which The House declined to pursue.
    The only reason that there is a need for new witnesses, is the very obstruction of Congress, most notably from the WH. It would have been far preferable if material witnesses offered material evidence to the charge.

    The precedent for every future president not to co-operate has been set, thus undermining the Impeachment process.

    If this was a perfect call, why not co-operate with enthusiasm to clear his name, and Implicitly knock political opponents out the door.

    By definition, Trump is guilty of obstruction, he has said as much and his excuse doesn't address the charge.


  • #3986
    notobtuse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    woohoo!!! wrote: »
    The only reason that there is a need for new witnesses, is the very obstruction of Congress, most notably from the WH. It would have been far preferable if material witnesses offered material evidence to the charge.

    The precedent for every future president not to co-operate has been set, thus undermining the Impeachment process.

    If this was a perfect call, why not co-operate with enthusiasm to clear his name, and Implicitly knock political opponents out the door.

    By definition, Trump is guilty of obstruction, he has said as much and his excuse doesn't address the charge.
    Going forward if a president fails to cooperate with Congress, they'll just impeachment him/her for Obstruction of Congress. That is the precedent the Democrats have now set. Sad state of affairs!

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • #3987
    campo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭campo


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Going forward if a president fails to cooperate with Congress, they'll just impeachment him/her for Obstruction of Congress. That is the precedent the Democrats have now set. Sad state of affairs!

    The parts highlighted above are exactly as you outlined, obstruction of congress which is an impeachable offence


  • #3988
    Winning_Stroke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 224 ✭✭Winning_Stroke


    Boggles wrote: »
    Again for those at the back, the is the party of law and order, the Republican party removing Impeachment from the constitution and giving America a King.

    Oh no! :eek: This is outrageous. Imagine a King of the USA *shudder* Yeah you know, the King who's running in the election in a few months... *cough*


  • #3989
    notobtuse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    campo wrote: »
    The parts highlighted above are exactly as you outlined, obstruction of congress which is an impeachable offence
    No it isn't! It's a separation of powers... and the job of the judicial branch to remedy it.

    If the Democrats were smart they'd drop the Obstruction of Congress charge if they had any brains whatsoever... realizing it will come back to bite them in the butt in the future.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • #3990
    duploelabs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,037 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    notobtuse wrote: »
    No it isn't! It's a separation of powers... and the job of the judicial branch to remedy it.

    If the Democrats were smart they'd drop the Obstruction of Congress charge if they had any brains whatsoever... realizing it will come back to bite them in the butt in the future.

    Trump made his own bed by refusing to comply with any discovery for impeachment proceedings, no other president has done so before. So if the senate find Trump not guilty of obstruction of justice then the whole impeachement process is not fit for purpose, for any president going forward, republican and democrat. So Republicans ar$e is equally edible in the future


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  • #3991
    manual_man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,267 ✭✭✭✭manual_man


    woohoo!!! wrote: »
    The only reason that there is a need for new witnesses, is the very obstruction of Congress, most notably from the WH. It would have been far preferable if material witnesses offered material evidence to the charge.

    The precedent for every future president not to co-operate has been set, thus undermining the Impeachment process.

    If this was a perfect call, why not co-operate with enthusiasm to clear his name, and Implicitly knock political opponents out the door.

    By definition, Trump is guilty of obstruction, he has said as much and his excuse doesn't address the charge.
    Obstruction of Congress is a bogus charge invented out of thin air. Democrats declined to issue a subpoena and challenge through the courts if necessary. That is on them. Trump is not King. Though neither is the House of Representatives. That is the genius of the Constitution and the Separation of Powers. There are checks and balances in place to ensure neither abuses their power. Democrats abandoned such checks and balances, and screamed "obstruction"! It is all so old at this stage. Relentless accusations and rhetoric, never-ending investigation. Blah Blah Blah. I've never seen such worse losers in my whole life. Democrats had the choice, post 2016, to do some serious introspection and determine to address the issues that led to so many voting for Trump, OR to go down the never-ending road of 'resistance' and rage and resentment, and constantly throwing their toys out of the pram. It is this decision that, ironically, will likely lead to Trump's re-election in 281 days time.


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