Norweigian Infrastucture Compared to Irish

MrAbyss · 25-01-2020 9:18pm #1

Same population. Has oil money alright. Even so. We get 50m trams on the Green Line from our politicians and are over the moon for it. BTW Norway has a superb rail system (building new lines all the time) and Oslo has an incredible commuter rail, tram and metro system. Same size as Dublin.

We get slightly longer trams and crayons for Renelagh.

26-01-2020 1:44am

Comparing Norway to anywhere in terms of govt investment is just plain silly, end of

wmahcm · 26-01-2020 1:47am

If you have ambition for Ireland it's a very decent comparison. Beats the people who set the bar at "at least we are better than Albania etc."

MrAbyss · 26-01-2020 12:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Comparing Norway to anywhere in terms of govt investment is just plain silly, end of

You are so typically Irish in this regarding it's soul destroying listening to the likes of you.

26-01-2020 12:46pm

Never mind the money, Norway is decades ahead of us when it comes to the sheer planning/thinking/innovation. They look into the future and find new solutions.

We look to the past and implement ideas that other countries used about thirty years ago.

gozunda · 26-01-2020 12:55pm

Norway has considerable natural resources not just limited to oil reserves - they're fairly ringing the bell at the top tbh.

...Norway has vast reserves of petroleum, titanium, nickel, natural gas, iron ore and coal. Globally, it ranked fifth in the production of natural gas and second in export of natural gas. The country’s titanium production accounts for 6% of the total world production of titanium. It is a globally leading producer of ferroalloys and aluminium.

The country also produces zinc, steel, copper, cobalt, cadmium and aluminium. Some of the country’s economically important industrial minerals include sand and gravel, nepheline syenite, limestone and aggregates.

https://www.azomining.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=99

That said organisation and good governance helps ...

I Am The Law · 26-01-2020 12:59pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Never mind the money, Norway is decades ahead of us when it comes to the sheer planning/thinking/innovation. They look into the future and find new solutions.

We look to the past and implement ideas that other countries used about thirty years ago.

That's it exactly, decades, we can't look beyond Saturday week. Utterly depressing.

Vic_08 · 26-01-2020 1:05pm

gozunda wrote: »

Norway has considerable natural resources not just limited to oil reserves - they're fairly ringing the bell at the top tbh.

https://www.azomining.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=99

That said organisation and good governance helps ...

And that's on top of generating more than 100% of their domestic electricity supply from hydro, sure why can't the ESB send a lad down to Ardnacrusha to just make it work properly FFS.

Vic_08 · 26-01-2020 1:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Never mind the money, Norway is decades ahead of us when it comes to the sheer planning/thinking/innovation. They look into the future and find new solutions.

And they are centuries ahead of us in therms of being a wealthy independent country, we are only a few generations on from being an asset stripped, genocide ravaged colony. Compared to most of the former British Empire we are well ahead of the curve.

Can we do better than currently; absolutely, is it realistic to be anywhere near the standard of the most advanced nation on the planet; no.

noodler · 26-01-2020 1:15pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

You are so typically Irish in this regarding it's soul destroying listening to the likes of you.

They've the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world.

gozunda · 26-01-2020 1:28pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

And that's on top of generating more than 100% of their domestic electricity supply from hydro, sure why can't the ESB send a lad down to Ardnacrusha to just make it work properly FFS.

Interesting until recently Norways hydro electricity was viewed as as the green battery of europe

https://industryeurope.com/pumped-hydropower-the-green-battery/

Seems like hydro electricity is now the bad boy according to a changing political scene ..

https://www.localfutures.org/dammed-good-questions-about-the-green-new-deal/

wmahcm · 26-01-2020 1:58pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

And they are centuries ahead of us in therms of being a wealthy independent country, we are only a few generations on from being an asset stripped, genocide ravaged colony. Compared to most of the former British Empire we are well ahead of the curve.

Can we do better than currently; absolutely, is it realistic to be anywhere near the standard of the most advanced nation on the planet; no.

So we should stop looking towards the best examples and practices worldwide, and look towards what ? lol

Cookiemunster · 26-01-2020 5:15pm

wmahcm wrote: »

So we should stop looking towards the best examples and practices worldwide, and look towards what ? lol

It's very easy to have best practice worldwide when you've got practically unlimited resources. Quite simply we don't have the money to impliment a quarter of what they've done in Norway.

wmahcm · 26-01-2020 5:19pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It's very easy to have best practice worldwide when you've got practically unlimited resources. Quite simply we don't have the money to impliment a quarter of what they've done in Norway.

A quarter is a start . .. funny we have billions upon billions for future generations to protect the fortunes of bankers, banks, bondholders and developers though, and can afford to happily give away all our resources for a few brown envelopes.

Elemonator · 26-01-2020 5:30pm

Having oil and having the world's most valuable sovereign wealth fund definitely helps. Nonetheless Ireland is just lazy too.

noodler · 26-01-2020 5:30pm

wmahcm wrote: »

A quarter is a start . .. funny we have billions upon billions for future generations to protect the fortunes of bankers, banks, bondholders and developers though, and can afford to happily give away all our resources for a few brown envelopes.

God this is literally everybody's answer to everything in Ireland.

I'm gonna put a number on your rant. The net cost of saving the banks has been about 35bn when our stakes and NAMA profits are considered.

wmahcm · 26-01-2020 5:31pm

noodler wrote: »

God this is literally everybody's answer to everything in Ireland.

I'm gonna put a number on your rant. The net cost of saving the banks has been about 35bn when our stakes and NAMA profits are considered.

lol, a bit of creative accounting . . yet we took on billions more in national debt for them.

noodler · 26-01-2020 6:00pm

wmahcm wrote: »

lol, a bit of creative accounting . . yet we took on billions more in national debt for them.

64bn the gross cost of the bailout.

20bn from the NPRF so 44bn onto the national debt (the rest of the 200bn+ is basically the cost of borrowing to fund public services during the deficit years of 2008-2014).

My understanding is our steak in AIB and the other banks is about 20bn+, there's been a few more billion in dividends and NAMA expects a few more bn in profit.

Happy to hear your version.

wmahcm · 26-01-2020 6:06pm

noodler wrote: »

64bn the gross cost of the bailout.

20bn from the NPRF so 44bn onto the national debt (the rest of the 200bn+ is basically the cost of borrowing to fund public services during the deficit years of 2008-2014).

My understanding is our steak in AIB and the other banks is about 20bn+, there's been a few more billion in dividends and NAMA expects a few more bn in profit.

Happy to hear your version.

Ahh there's the bullshyte

tdf7187 · 26-01-2020 6:07pm

Denmark would be a more appropriate comparison as they don't have the oil money and like Ireland have limited natural resources in general. Very similar population to Ireland, similar stage of economic development and similar land geographical area. Also high cost of living.

Even at that they have a better rail network than us (I think - I've only visited Copenhagen and that was for barely a week).

New Zealand might be another suitable comparator. Actually (whisper it) we've probably done a bit better than NZ on infrastructure. Unfortunately, that's not saying much.

tdf7187 · 26-01-2020 6:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

. We look to the past and implement ideas that other countries used about thirty years ago.

Very true, although we followed the UK with regard to dismantling our tram network just a few years after they dismantled theirs. Well done us! At least we're not stupid enough to follow them out of the EU.

sheesh · 26-01-2020 6:13pm

wmahcm wrote: »

If you have ambition for Ireland it's a very decent comparison. Beats the people who set the bar at "at least we are better than Albania etc."

no its the exact same only coming from the other side.

Ireland has a national debt of over €200billion.

Norway not only have no debt they will have a budget surplus for the foreseeable future. this means that even though we are nearing complete employment we still cannot run a health service.

Comparing the two countries is an exercise in extreme stupidity

noodler · 26-01-2020 6:14pm

wmahcm wrote: »

Ahh there's the bullshyte

Not at all.

The country ran deficits for about 7 years (quite apart from substantial bank bailouts as evidenced above)

Easily seen. The EBR (exchequer borrowing requirement) in those years was as high as 20bn in down years alone (majority for public services)

It's been a serious failing of some of our media not to correct the misperception of some that our national debt is down to the banks.

Any evidence you need on this, happy to provide links, sources etc.

wmahcm · 26-01-2020 6:15pm

sheesh wrote: »

Comparing the two countries is an exercise in extreme stupidity

Yeah lets never look towards any better ways of managing or doing things . .wouldn't want to rock the nice cronie cartels would we.

JohnC. · 26-01-2020 6:19pm

wmahcm wrote: »

Yeah lets never look towards any better ways of managing or doing things . .wouldn't want to rock the nice cronie cartels would we.

The problem seems to be that your better way would involve us having loads of oil and other natural resources. The thing is, there's nothing we can do to make that happen. Other than to annex Norway. Which wouldn't work.

cgcsb · 26-01-2020 6:20pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

Same population. Has oil money alright. Even so. We get 50m trams on the Green Line from our politicians and are over the moon for it. BTW Norway has a superb rail system (building new lines all the time) and Oslo has an incredible commuter rail, tram and metro system. Same size as Dublin.

We get slightly longer trams and crayons for Renelagh.

That project is serious overkill.

wmahcm · 26-01-2020 6:27pm

JohnC. wrote: »

The problem seems to be that your better way would involve us having loads of oil and other natural resources. The thing is, there's nothing we can do to make that happen. Other than to annex Norway. Which wouldn't work.

It's not "my" better way. Yeah lets go with "your" way of never looking at any better systems anywhere or question anything that goes on in Ireland. lol . . that's worked out well in the past here.

JohnC. · 26-01-2020 6:30pm

wmahcm wrote: »

It's not "my" better way. Yeah lets go with "your" way of never looking at any better systems anywhere or question anything that goes on in Ireland. lol . . that's worked out well in the past here.

Care to explain how saying that we don't have Norway's resources is the same as never looking at any other systems?

In fact, I'd say that acknowledging that we don't have Norway's resources shows that we have looked at it and don't expect it to just work like magic.

wmahcm · 26-01-2020 6:35pm

JohnC. wrote: »

Care to explain how saying that we don't have Norway's resources is the same as never looking at any other systems?

In fact, I'd say that acknowledging that we don't have Norway's resources shows that we have looked at it and don't expect it to just work like magic.

Are you really trying to claim that every example of good administration and management in Norway or any other successful system in any other country . . by comparison to the systems that have failed in Ireland, requires massive resources and wealth ? lol

JohnC. · 26-01-2020 6:41pm

Okay. You're right. It makes no difference. Carry on. I'll leave you to your silly thread.

hognef · 26-01-2020 6:46pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

Same population. Has oil money alright. Even so. We get 50m trams on the Green Line from our politicians and are over the moon for it. BTW Norway has a superb rail system (building new lines all the time) and Oslo has an incredible commuter rail, tram and metro system. Same size as Dublin.

We get slightly longer trams and crayons for Renelagh.

Norway does not have a superb rail system. For example, the line between the two largest cities, Oslo and Bergen, is a single track that was constructed over a 100 years ago. The same largely apples to Oslo to Trondheim (3rd largest city). Both have journey times of 6-8 hours.

There's is not, and has never been, any direct connection between Bergen and Trondheim (which would likely take 8-10 hours if it did exist, assuming similar line), hence, to travel between those two, you need to go via Oslo (14 hours, say). By air, all these take about 45 mins.

That said, there are of course reasons, including the mountains, fjords, climate and wildlife. There'd be a need for many (likely record-breaking) tunnels and bridges to make these rail routes "superb". A new line to Bergen has been discussed for decades, but nothing fundamental has changed yet.

Admittedly, there is investment in rail in the larger Oslo area, including, but not limited to, the high-speed line to Gardermoen airport (20 mins, vs 40 mins by car largely on motorways). But "building new lines all the time" is not correct.

Norway does indeed invest in infrastructure at a different scale from Ireland, but also some things just cost so much more there (for example, it's never flat there, so everything requires expensive tunnels, etc.) that it's still lagging in terms of motorways too. There's no motorway connection between the largest cities, but there's certainly no lack of investigation in major projects otherwise (including a growing network of motorway around Oslo and generally in the east of the country in general).

Finally, just thought I'd mention the extremely high number (250+) of toll roads used to part-fund some of these projects.

Just to provide a bit of balance. A lot is certainly significantly better than in Ireland, but it's not all as it appears from the outside.

Edit: Indeed, public transport within and around Oslo (and other large cities) is miles ahead of anything that Ireland has to offer.

wmahcm · 26-01-2020 6:46pm

JohnC. wrote: »

Okay. You're right. It makes no difference. Carry on. I'll leave you to your silly thread.

It's not "my" thread. And yes responsible Irish citizens will carry on, and learn from better ways to develop Ireland rather than be fed horsehtye excuses from the cronies who want the status quo to remain.

Carawaystick · 26-01-2020 6:52pm

Norway owns some of the Corrib gas field, Raphael Burke gave it away to them, so Ireland owns none of it....

cgcsb · 26-01-2020 7:01pm

If people don't like the comparison to Norway because of its extreme wealth then fine, we can compare ourselves to Spain, a much poorer country than Ireland with nation wide high speed rail, extensive metro, commuter rail and tram networks can be found in most Cork sized cities. Waste collection and street cleaning is superb, there's a full national health service and they aren't taxed much differently to Ireland? Discuss.

26-01-2020 7:10pm

cgcsb wrote: »

If people don't like the comparison to Norway because of its extreme wealth then fine, we can compare ourselves to Spain, a much poorer country than Ireland with nation wide high speed rail, extensive metro, commuter rail and tram networks can be found in most Cork sized cities. Waste collection and street cleaning is superb, there's a full national health service and they aren't taxed much differently to Ireland? Discuss.

As it happens I recently watched a video on Spains High speed rail disaster. Looks like something we would do here : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MYWYhPVwJBY

cgcsb · 26-01-2020 7:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As it happens I recently watched a video on Spains High speed rail disaster. Looks like something we would do here : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MYWYhPVwJBY

Well if you subscribe to English/FG thinking and believe that public transport needs to be profitable and pay off it's own construction costs, then I guess that video makes sense. Spain's high speed trains are brilliant and they provide a future basis for abolishing internal flights.

wmahcm · 26-01-2020 7:50pm

sheesh wrote: »

yes, thats what I'm doing.
you got me.
I'm on boards supporting the the nice crony cartels.

We know

sheesh wrote: »

so off you go and copy the Norwegians. Good luck with that!

Nope, where they lack in Ireland, you take the best most cost effective measures and systems from successful countries, you and apply them to Ireland in a well managed efficient system. You also examine their failures and make sure not to repeatedly emulate those. A nightmare for the present incompetent cronie status quo in Ireland, no wonder the thread has caused so much panic.

Cookiemunster · 26-01-2020 8:48pm

wmahcm wrote: »

We know

Nope, where they lack in Ireland, you take the best most cost effective measures and systems from successful countries, you and apply them to Ireland in a well managed efficient system. You also examine their failures and make sure not to repeatedly emulate those. A nightmare for the present incompetent cronie status quo in Ireland, no wonder the thread has caused so much panic.

This thread has caused the sum total of zero panic to anyone. It's called being realistic. Even the best most efficient systems cost billions of Euros. Where to you propose that this money is going to come from?

NIMAN · 26-01-2020 8:49pm

Oh great, another "Isn't Norway great thread".

Idbatterim · 26-01-2020 10:07pm

COmparing Norway to this banana republic! I like it ! I really hope Dublin has one metro line by 2050! Can’t wait for them to shred up the currents plans , start all over again , endless public consultations with the local experts etc ....

Idbatterim · 26-01-2020 10:08pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

This thread has caused the sum total of zero panic to anyone. It's called being realistic. Even the best most efficient systems cost billions of Euros. Where to you propose that this money is going to come from?

Not increasing welfare by hundreds of millions every year might be start

ncounties · 26-01-2020 10:10pm

I don't think we need any monstrous sunken tubes, or colossal bridges. A high speed line from Belfast through to Cork, the Dart Expansion & Underground, a Metro line or two, a couple more Luas lines and a few hundred kilometres of decent city centre cycle infrastructure, and I think we would be the bee's knees.

gjim · 27-01-2020 12:20am

wmahcm wrote: »

Nope, where they lack in Ireland, you take the best most cost effective measures and systems from successful countries, you and apply them to Ireland in a well managed efficient system. You also examine their failures and make sure not to repeatedly emulate those. A nightmare for the present incompetent cronie status quo in Ireland, no wonder the thread has caused so much panic.

We don't have the same geography as Norway so we've managed to link all our major cities (more or less) with motorways at a much lesser cost. This reflects badly on Ireland how exactly?

I've no idea what you're actually suggesting/demanding - is it that we should have built the M1 on stilts in the sea or that we should have put the M7 in an underground tunnel?

Could you be actually specific on what you want done? Vague rants are a waste of time.

zom · 27-01-2020 11:52am

ncounties wrote: »

I don't think we need any monstrous sunken tubes, or colossal bridges. A high speed line from Belfast through to Cork, the Dart Expansion & Underground, a Metro line or two, a couple more Luas lines and a few hundred kilometres of decent city centre cycle infrastructure, and I think we would be the bee's knees.

If it happen at any stage, Chinese will probably be already teleporting millions of people to the stars at the same time.

27-01-2020 2:38pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

You are so typically Irish in this regarding it's soul destroying listening to the likes of you.

Truth hurts but it doesn't make it any less true

Yellow_Fern · 31-01-2020 12:46am

cgcsb wrote: »

If people don't like the comparison to Norway because of its extreme wealth then fine, we can compare ourselves to Spain, a much poorer country than Ireland with nation wide high speed rail, extensive metro, commuter rail and tram networks can be found in most Cork sized cities. Waste collection and street cleaning is superb, there's a full national health service and they aren't taxed much differently to Ireland? Discuss.

Spain has the most high speed rail per capita but its been very expensive for them. You migh balk at cost benfit analysis but really these investments come at the expense of other investments.

zom · 31-01-2020 12:10pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Spain has the most high speed rail per capita but its been very expensive for them.

At the end of the day there is no cheaper option for transport than millions of private diesel cars...

bk · 31-01-2020 12:32pm

zom wrote: »

At the end of the day there is no cheaper option for transport than millions of private diesel cars...

The thing is, investing that same money in more Metro lines would likely have had a greater environmental benefit then the relatively small number of people their HSR network carries.

When looking at environmental benefits you have to look if the same money spent elsewhere would have a greater benefit.

A Cork to Belfast HSR line would cost roughly 50 Billion to build. 50bn is the same amount of money it would cost to convert every home in Ireland to an energy efficient home. Doing that would have a vastly better environmental impact then the relatively small numbers of Diesel cars that a HSR would take off the road.

hognef wrote: »

Norway does not have a superb rail system. For example, the line between the two largest cities, Oslo and Bergen, is a single track that was constructed over a 100 years ago. The same largely apples to Oslo to Trondheim (3rd largest city). Both have journey times of 6-8 hours.

I agree with everything you said in your post. But I just wanted to add, if anyone gets the chance to take the Oslo to Bergen train, take it. It will be one of the best 6 hours of your life! The views from this train route are simply SPECTACULAR. One of the top experiences of my life, I highly recommend it to everyone.

Having spent a lot of time in Norway, I can say that intercity travel is a lot poorer then here in Ireland. We have a much better motorway network then them, driving been cities there is a nightmare and there rail network is nothing to write home about either, I'd rate it slightly poorer then ours (of course excluding the views). Most people fly between cities there, which is much better developed internal network then ours.

Of course that is all due to the radical difference in geography. I'm sure the Norwegians would love to have better intercity transport, but the geography there is just insane and flying makes more sense.

On the other hand, they focus their investment heavily on excellent urban public transport, partly because it is easier to do and Norwegians tend to be more focused on city living anyway. There have far less enthusiasm for one off homes in the countryside like we do, which is understandable given the harsh conditions.

I do think there are lessons for us to learn from Norway, about planning, forward thinking, et.c But it would be very foolish to think we can replicate their infrastructure given their vast wealth.

I agree that Denmark and Copenhagen are better comparisons for us to follow. A more similar geography and wealth level.

cgcsb · 31-01-2020 11:21pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Spain has the most high speed rail per capita but its been very expensive for them. You migh balk at cost benfit analysis but really these investments come at the expense of other investments.

Funny you should say that because every Spanish city of any scale has excellent public transport, waste collection and water services. What suffered as a result of building good infrastructure?

hognef · 01-02-2020 12:07am

bk wrote: »

I agree with everything you said in your post. But I just wanted to add, if anyone gets the chance to take the Oslo to Bergen train, take it. It will be one of the best 6 hours of your life! The views from this train route are simply SPECTACULAR. One of the top experiences of my life, I highly recommend it to everyone.

Certainly, and this is why NRK (the state broadcaster) made a 7 hour long minute-by-minute uninterrupted "documentary" of the journey. It might not be everybody's idea of entertainment, but it was actually quite popular at the time. Obviously doesn't come close to actually being there..:

https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dd_S_13TWn1c&ved=2ahUKEwitt9rL9K7nAhVdURUIHbhWDWMQFjADegQIChAl&usg=AOvVaw3S0MLU-Y2tbrOgUO0S04oQ

Incidentally, these 7 hours are dwarfed by the equivalent 130-hour movie of the Hurtigruten ferry journey along the Norwegian coast, from Bergen in the south to Kirkenes in the very north east.

Yellow_Fern · 01-02-2020 2:26pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Funny you should say that because every Spanish city of any scale has excellent public transport, waste collection and water services. What suffered as a result of building good infrastructure?

I cant pretent to be an expert but I cant imagine that you are correct. One area that Ireland is better than Spain is home efficiency. It is quite poor in Spain.

If self driving vehicles are coming I fear that they will make long distance trains even less good value to build. As far as I can see money should be spent on congested routes, epecially metros where self driving cars could just make congested city routes far worse.

Norweigian Infrastucture Compared to Irish

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