Would legalization of drugs be passed?

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

See now this is where I think there is a massive blind spot on this issue...

So-called moderate users of drugs, not only don't think they are part of the problem... you don't even think you are part of the equation. But you are!

Just because you don't need rehab or your drug use is not taking over your life... this doesn't mean you don't have a problem. You likely do have a problem, it's just not as severe as other people... but you are definitely still part of the problem!

We live in a society where many people can have moderate to serious alcohol addiction, but they don't even recognise it because they are still going to work on a monday morning and managing to function reasonably well... and possibly all their mates are in the same boat. They're not looking at each other and seeing mild alcohol dependency... but that's often exactly what it is in reality!

Or you have people who constantly need drugs from their pharmacy, because they're always mildly sick with some ailment... because they're unhealthy and can't break free from this cycle...

All these people are part of the collective problem in society... you don't need to be sleeping under a park bench with a bottle of wine or addicted to painkillers etc to be a problem...

100,000's or even millions of people needing to take drugs every week of their life in order to have a good time or function at a better level day-to-day... that's a problem in society... and it's actually a much bigger problem overall than many people realize! And of course it puts in place a culture where the serious problem users are more likely to occur...

If drug use in general in society - even moderate use - was much lower, cases of serious problem users would be lower too. If we didn't have such a strong culture of recreational alcohol use... there would be far less cases of serious alcoholics too... both things very much go hand in hand together. They are just different degrees of the same issue!

Now, you might say I'm not harming anyone and it's my choice... I'm in control of my personal use... I'm not here to tell you, as an individual, how to live your life...

But as far as I can see, the push to legalize dangerous drugs is actually coming from a selfish and frankly snobbish mindset... people who feel they are more moderate users or in more control of their usage, don't like being lumped in with problem addicts or in any way connected to underworld criminals... that's the main motivation behind the push for legalization!

But you are connected to those people... you are part of the equation and the wider problem. Just like the rich man or woman sitting at home, polishing off bottles of super expensive wine is still very much part of the problem... You don't exist in a vacuum free from scrutiny or judgement.

And while you are free to live your life how you wish, you should not have the power to change the entire legal framework of a country... just so you can feel better about your chosen lifestyle!

You seem to have missed where I specifically stated I don’t take drugs. But in any case you make valid points even though reading it it seems directed at me.

But in any case, I don’t understand your use of the adjectives snobby mind set. It is actually irrelevant. But in any case, the crux of your argument is that a particular lifestyle should not be able to change a legal framework. Agreed. But what is the alternative. Again, while illegal criminals decide what is ingested and basically if people love or die. So using your argument, people are deciding a legal framework which allows unregulated and poisonous narcotics to be taken just because they feel that a substance is harmful. Where is the logic in that? Honestly, it is crazy that people are dying and gangs control things just because you don’t want to change a legal framework.

Re: Decriminalising, yes, street dealers will still be selling it, but they're selling it now so what difference would it make really. The difference, imo, is that funds currently spent on catching the end user can be spent elsewhere. We can, as a country, help the people with addictions, and other countries have proven that the profits from cannabis sales alone can help combat this. [url=https://coloradosun.com/2019/06/12/where-does-colorados-marijuana-tax-money-go/[/url] shows where Colorado is spending the profits from taxing cannabis, and it mostly goes back into drug addiction rehabilitation and education.

The same could be done here, because people are going to consume cannabis anyway. That's never going to change. That €150 per week some spend on cannabis would be going back into the economy, helping to create and maintain these health benefiting schemes. And that's the main issue right now, people won't accept that (and i'm speaking specifically about cannabis here) cannabis users will not just stop using because it's illegal. It helps so many people, when the alternative is a concoction of chemicals made by a pharmaceutical company whose only interest is profit.

I know myself, personally, would spend the same amount of money buying it legally, having the choice of strain and knowing it's properly regulated and grown. I couldn't care less if Johnno has the newest super strain, I don't need that. I'd still prefer to buy legally and in a controlled environment. Heck, depending on the laws, I might even grow my own and spend that money on other services, still giving back into the economy rather than into a cartels pocket. Convictions and prison sentences won't change this mentality for most cannabis users.

Other drugs, yeah, I'd like to see decriminalisation of MDMA and psilocybin, as they already have lots of evidence of medical use. Having somewhere to check the quality of the drugs you buy would also be of benefit, could prevent some deaths, and will in turn force the street dealers to actually have quality products. It's like any transaction, if the dealer is selling you crap, you won't go back to him, so it's in their interests to sell good quality these days. As stated, not everyone who takes drugs is a junkie just mad to get the next fix, regardless of quality. Most people want to know they're taking a safe version of what they got.

Shur even Leo himself smoked on in college. I think the vast majority of anti-decriminalisation people are just not aware of how many people take drugs. Maybe they don't want to believe it, but I'd wager that most people who take drugs in Ireland are normal looking, upstanding citizens. People seem to only focus on the junkies. I know that I'm in a much better place mentally since I gave up drink and started consuming cannabis. And if it was legalised and properly regulated/sold, I reckon I could even give up smoking.

@Greta, I take your points, and I agree the problem with alcohol is as big as, nay worse, than the problem with drugs. Unfortunately, I'd imagine it's hard to get proper figures, as I'm sure Ireland lumps all deaths where drugs were in the system into the same category, regardless of how much of the drug was in the system. Someone dieing in a traffic accident they caused showing traces of cannabis in their system will be pegged as a drug caused death, even if the last joint they had could have been up to 2 months previous.

But, what's the solution? Convictions and prison time is not working. What is left to try only decriminalisation?

376 people died from drug poisoning in 2017 with a further 410 dying with drugs in their system, but not due to poisoning.
There are almost twice as many deaths due to alcohol in Ireland as due to all other drugs combined. (from 2013, can't find anything more recent)

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Attempting to normalize your chosen lifestyle is one thing... attempting to change the entire legal framework of a country to better suit your chosen lifestyle, is another thing entirely... and sets a very dangerous precedent going forward...

But isn't that exactly what happened when drugs were made illegal? We'd just be reverting back to the way it was before America scared the world into thinking cannabis is the devils lettuce.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

I did recognise that you don't take drugs... my remarks were not directed specifically at you, I meant 'you' in the more general societal sense.

I don't know if "snobbish" is the correct adjective to use, but it certainly feels a bit like that sort of mentality.

You see a similar mentality around things like fat acceptance... and what I mean by that is, the more people that become overweight and obese in our society... the greater the push there is for general acceptance and normalization of that lifestyle!

They may seem like completely different issues, but I don't really think they are... the behaviour and attitudes are remarkably similar. If you have enough people living a certain lifestyle and making similar choices... there comes a point where there is enough people, and enough peer pressure, that there is a push for normalization of that lifestyle... no matter how irrational it may seem to people who are on the outside looking in.

As a nutritionist I am seeing it more and more... people don't want to be stigmatized for their lifestyle choices, and if they cannot break free from those choices (or don't want to) and there is a big enough number of people in that particular demographic... the push for normalization happens, as a way of removing that stigmatization!

Attempting to normalize your chosen lifestyle is one thing... attempting to change the entire legal framework of a country to better suit your chosen lifestyle, is another thing entirely... and sets a very dangerous precedent going forward...

But the alternative to that precedent is allowing criminals to control. You say it sets a dangerous precedent but surely the current precedent is more dangerous

mr_fegelien wrote:

Would you vote yes to legalize illegal drugs and make them otc?

I would vote yes, but it won't happen in Ireland, not yet anyway

Fcuking hell, we really have brainwashed ourselves with all this supply and demand bollocks, neoclassical economics is potentially one of the worse things we ve created, it has no baring on our reality, logic cannot be used to explain the consumption of illegal drugs ffs!

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

How about we continue the fight against criminals bringing drugs into the country...

because, the global effort in the war on drugs barely confiscates 1% of all illegal drugs, its a total farce and if the money that's spent already can only get this return then its time to throw in the towel

The Orb wrote: »

It is

it isnt really though

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Who controls the supply of dog meat to chinese restaurants?

Who controls the supply of Rhino horns?

Who controls the supply of young girls for sexual exploitation and prostitution?

The problem is not who is supplying these things... the problem is that the culture exists in a big enough way, that there is a significant demand.

But the difference with certain drugs, is that many people don't think drugs are a problem... but these people are VERY wrong... dangerous addictive drugs very much are a huge problem. Even if most people are moderate users... they still create a culture and an acceptance of the practice... and that is the dangerous part...

You can go a long way to getting rid of the criminal gang's influence, by changing the culture of drug use.

People don't eat dogs in this country, because we don't have a culture that exists for eating such animals... most people are repulsed by the very idea of it. But even if the culture did exist, nobody is going to seriously suggest that we bring the supply into the mainstream... Even in China, they are not seriously suggesting this even though many see it as a normal practice!

If you don't want people eating your family pet for dinner... then you make sure the culture doesn't exist for it to be acceptable. And whether you eat one dog per week or you eat 20 dogs per week... you are still playing your part in a culture and practice that will continue to exist...

Changing who supplies something will have very little impact on the end result... if you don't change the culture first...

Same with sexual exploitation or Rhino horns... etc... you could literally pick anything really. The demand comes first, then the supply comes after that. To have any chance of making an impact on these problems, you must attack the issue from the correct side first... or else you are just essentially wasting time and resources. (imho anyway)

what in the actual **** are you on about?

pure.conya wrote: »

it isnt really though

It really is though, maybe not in a manner that you like.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

It's not really that hard to understand where I'm coming from... perhaps I should have picked another example... but the example still works to illustrate my point!

Culture dictates demand, which dictates supply... the main problem is a culture that thinks it's acceptable to consume dog meat, not necessarily that there are people prepared to meet that demand. (or even who they are)

After the Celtic tiger, this country has increasingly become exposed to more exotic drugs than before. So many of our citizens travel abroad, to the states etc and they bring back elements - like more exotic drug use - and this then spreads into our culture!

Once things like coke etc become mainstream in pubs and parties etc... it's obvious you are going to be bringing in a larger element of crime gangs into the country which we didn't really have before. So your average person taking some coke at the weekend, certainly is playing their part in that change of culture and hence playing their part in bringing more crime gangs onto our Island...

Changing suppliers is not the answer... changing the culture is the answer... but then that involves the average joe and jane on the street looking in the mirror and taking their own portion of the blame for that change in culture... and doing something about it on an individual level...

Most moderate or recreational drug users in this country, do not want to shoulder their portion of the blame for the increasing drug culture... they want to blame anyone else... they are not the problem... they are in control because they're not in rehab and they're still managing to function reasonably well... but this is a big lie... everyone who takes drugs on a frequent basis, is part of the problem.

It's the overall popularity of drug taking that is the real crux of the problem, not just the serious addicts... Drug gangs didn't create that culture, we did... they are just meeting the increased demand.

fcuking hell, 'personal responsibility' argument to solve addiction issues, this is really fcuked up!

seriously, walk away from neoclassical arguments, they really are retarded

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Seems I hit a nerve... perhaps you should wind your neck in?

It is ultimately about personal responsibility. We have a rapidly growing drug problem, which we created as a society.

It's straightforward if you're an addict and it's obvious you have a serious problem... you know you need to seek help. (Obviously not so easy always to get help)

But what about the more moderate users, who are still functioning, but yet technically still have an addiction? Very hard to tell those guys and gals that they should get some help... or tell them that they are part of the wider problem of a growing drug culture!

I'm not trying to offend anyone... but the idea that recreational drug users are not part of the problem of a drug culture, is frankly a bit bonkers! Everyone plays their part, big or small, in the overall trend...

Can you explain why you say we have a rapidly growing drug problem...you can just say that without fleshing it out.

Also what is a drug culture. Is it the criminal element you are alluding to or something else. It will be easier to discuss if you explain.

Finally what do you mean by everyone playing part, big or small?

Because everything you have stated could be attributed to, let’s say sugar being illegal..it’s the illegality that fuels everything you are arguing

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

So our culture of alcohol consumption is good then?

Look at all the countless lives that have been destroyed by that completely legal substance... and all the wasted potential of people in society, who may not have even become full blown alcoholics, but certainly got trapped in an unhealthy lifestyle and didn't make the most of their lives...

How would legalizing other drugs end up any different to our disastrous drinking culture? (In fact many of them are more addictive than alcohol)

Yes, we are to blame as a nation, for the current drug gangs and drug culture... however, we can change it too. But altering the supply chain, will not solve the problem...

Alcohol is produced to a high quality standard and sold by reputable establishments... does not make a damn bit of difference to the drinking culture and the huge damage done by that drug in society though!

Don’t change the subject unless you want alcohol made illegal and controlled by criminals.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

I haven't changed the subject... you can go back to my earliest posts in this thread, and see that I've been referencing our alcohol consumption from the start. (Because it makes perfect sense to do so... it's the best example we have in society today)

You're missing my point... making alcohol illegal is like closing the gate after the horse has bolted... it's too late!

It's mostly about changing the culture though. But obviously it helps when trying to create a different culture, if you don't have widespread and relatively cheap availability of addictive drugs. Not a lot we can do about alcohol availability... but we can do something about stopping these other drugs from going the same direction as alcohol...

It's funny... most people that have young kids, would be thrilled if they could look into the future and see that their kids made the decision to not drink alcohol and not take drugs, right? I'm not saying you would be devastated if they did... but it would make many parents happy to think they might choose not to... Like resist the peer pressure and do their own thing in life!

And yet many of these same people don't see the need to aspire to those same standards in adult life themselves... even though the standards they personally set for themselves, usually have the biggest influence on what way their kids choose to live when they grow up.... it's like it's cool and socially acceptable to have those aspirations for your kids, and almost no-one would criticise you for it, but uncool to be that sort of person yourself...

The culture will only change, when it becomes just as cool to have the same aspirations for yourself as you might ideally have for your small children... because there is essentially no real difference between those two things!

The premise of your argument is alcohol is bad and if you had your way would never be legal, but you cannot do anything because it’s too late.

But alcohol is not bad. Vast majority can enjoy it with nothing bad happening. He’s it does cause damage when abused but that is not a reason to make it illegal because of a minority.

Same with drugs. You still haven’t stated what the culture is etc or any question I’ve asked.

If your premise is that anything that affects the brain is evil then there is no point in debating.

However, you still are leaving it to criminals,so even if you think it’s evil, why not regulate that evil rather than sweeping it under the carpet for criminals to dictate.