Would legalization of drugs be passed?

mr_fegelien · 23-01-2020 08:42AM #1

In a referendum? Doctors are so stigny on giving out things like melatonin which are available over the coutner in other countries never mind benzos/opiates. The thing is we have an insane drug problem with coke, ecstasy etc.. so obviously people will self medicate no matter what.

Would you vote yes to legalize illegal drugs and make them otc?

The chan chan man · 23-01-2020 08:43AM

No

AudreyHepburn · 23-01-2020 08:48AM

Medicinal cannabis should be legal without question. I can’t understand why we haven’t had a referendum on this yet tub but I live in hope.

The actual drug through....as long as we have the same kind of regulation they have in the Netherlands then I see no reason why not.

But hard drugs like heroin, ecstasy, cocaine, lsd, crystal meth etc absolutely not.

Why would anyone want to make legal such destructive and devastating substances?

23-01-2020 08:53AM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

In a referendum? Doctors are so stigny on giving out things like melatonin which are available over the coutner in other countries never mind benzos/opiates. The thing is we have an insane drug problem with coke, ecstasy etc.. so obviously people will self medicate no matter what.

Would you vote yes to legalize illegal drugs and make them otc?

The Constitution is not the place for drug legislation so it would never be part of a referendum.

One eyed Jack · 23-01-2020 10:03AM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

In a referendum? Doctors are so stigny on giving out things like melatonin which are available over the coutner in other countries never mind benzos/opiates. The thing is we have an insane drug problem with coke, ecstasy etc.. so obviously people will self medicate no matter what.

Would you vote yes to legalize illegal drugs and make them otc?

There wouldn’t be a referendum on the issue in any case, but it’s not simply a question of legalising and regulating illegal drugs. There are numerous drugs are legal in other countries which are prohibited here, but while people cannot be prevented from self diagnosing and self medicating by ordering their drugs of choice online, the law can certainly discourage people from doing so, in the interests of public health and safety.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 23-01-2020 10:58AM

Alcohol is legal and very easily obtained... look at the devastating effects that particular drug has had on many people's lives!

Hardly a ringing endorsement for legalizing other dangerous substances.

Personally, I view part of the role of government is to protect certain vulnerable people in society from themselves. As not everyone has the same level of self control as other people in any society.

By legalizing dangerous drugs, you will be complicit in destroying the lives of many vulnerable people, who perhaps lack the same self control you might have around drugs. It sounds great talking about freedom of choice in life... but sometimes there can be such a thing as too much of a good thing!

Complete freedom around drug taking, very much falls under that category for me. It's incredibly dangerous and there is enough evidence out there already, to show that it would not end very well for many people in society if it ever happened...

freshpopcorn · 23-01-2020 11:36AM

If there was a referendum, I'd doubt it would pass.
Just in my experience people can be fairly conservative about drug us.

Feisar · 23-01-2020 12:05PM

I think legalization is the pragmatic approach as apposed to the idealistic notions we have at the moment.

Please excuse my ignorance however where would legal coke be got? As in where would it be sourced?

seamus · 23-01-2020 12:06PM

Even in the theoretical case that you would put it to referendum, there's no way it would pass. Too easy to scare people over it, too many parents who'd fear for their childrens' future.

Far more likely that politicians will legalise it than the population would.

joeguevara · 23-01-2020 12:08PM

It certainly will never be legalised if persistently called a drug problem as you did in your opening post.

brevity · 23-01-2020 12:19PM

No chance.

Decriminalisation would be a start though.

I’d also look at medicinal marijuana, medicinal MDMA, and medicinal Psilocybin.

nigeldaniel · 23-01-2020 01:07PM

Legalize them is pointless, as half the buz comes from buying from bad people and doing dodgy stuff. If they can be picked up in a pharmacy or shop folks will get bored and the bad guys will invent new not so legal stuff anyway.

marieholmfan · 23-01-2020 01:09PM

I would vote for the legalisation of all drugs with harm mitigation measures in place.
It's one of only three ways to end the criminal violence that is starting to become out of control in Ireland.

JCX BXC · 23-01-2020 01:18PM

nigeldaniel wrote: »

Legalize them is pointless, as half the buz comes from buying from bad people and doing dodgy stuff. If they can be picked up in a pharmacy or shop folks will get bored and the bad guys will invent new not so legal stuff anyway.

Ah yes because drug addicts somehow lose their addiction to hardcore drugs when they don't have to buy them illegally? I'm not sure your local heroin addict really gives a flying fcuk as to where his gear comes from!

Cannabis legalisation is a no-brainer, decriminalisation of harder drugs is definitely a wiser approach to tackling drug issues in this country.

1o059k7ewrqj3n · 23-01-2020 02:57PM

There's another thread on AH at the moment (Cocaine) with very good debate and opinions on decriminalisation or legalisation.

One of the major difficulties I see with decriminalisation is that the drug supply is left to a criminal element. In Portugal the policy is if you have amounts for personal supply under a certain weight, it's ok, but over a certain weight is trafficking.

Now, you might be a very nice person who happens to import drugs for sale and have no intention to commit other crimes but I think what will happen is the current gangs involved in the trade will continue unabated. Drugs don't come into the country in sizes of 1 gram, they come as part of large shipments which are then broken down for sale to individuals.

The other problem I see is for legalisation - say the state intervenes and decides drugs should be produced in country by an approved company or by the state itself. This would take drug trade out of the hands of the criminal element but it does mean the state is now responsible directly or indirectly for supply its own citizens with drugs.

It's sort of similar for methadone treatment, but that's to help people get off heroin. It's hard to see such a program being approved for purely recreational drugs.

In both cases there will always be an opportunity for criminal element to offer more powerful forms of drugs, say if you wanted crack cocaine but all that's available is coke.

Decriminalisation or legalisation is about harm reduction. It's no silver bullet but things are fairly bad at the moment and it's time to begin considering new avenues. Some things should just be legalised altogether, like weed - that could be grown by individuals.

sbsquarepants · 23-01-2020 02:58PM

Not a snowballs chance.......pun intended for all you filthy druggies out there:D

Bobblehats · 23-01-2020 03:03PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Not a snowballs chance.......pun intended for all you filthy druggies out there:D

and I’m not even answerimg the trent question. For shame...

sbsquarepants · 23-01-2020 03:10PM

Bobblehats wrote: »

and I’m not even answerimg the trent question. For shame...

Only 1 trent I care about and that's the mercurial Mr Alexander Arnold:D

Bobblehats · 23-01-2020 03:16PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Only 1 trent I care about and that's the mercurial Mr Alexander Arnold:D

He has got to be on something. Sup of ribena or what

Graces7 · 23-01-2020 03:45PM

Are you blaming doctors for illegal drugs proliferating? Stingy? Assuring that were they not careful and responsible with the powerful meds you list there would be far more dug addicts. If you need benzodiazepines or opiates you will be given them but not unless there is real clinical need in their assessment.

mr_fegelien wrote: »

In a referendum? Doctors are so stigny on giving out things like melatonin which are available over the coutner in other countries never mind benzos/opiates. The thing is we have an insane drug problem with coke, ecstasy etc.. so obviously people will self medicate no matter what.

Would you vote yes to legalize illegal drugs and make them otc?

sbsquarepants · 23-01-2020 04:22PM

Bobblehats wrote: »

He has got to be on something. Sup of ribena or what

Yeah, i hear himself and Milner are hoors for it!

iamstop · 23-01-2020 04:40PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

In a referendum? Doctors are so stigny on giving out things like melatonin which are available over the coutner in other countries never mind benzos/opiates.

I can (and do) get melatonin at the Dollarama here in Canada. Send me some euros and I'll convert them to melatonin pill for you! :pac:

Samuel T. Cogley · 23-01-2020 06:17PM

melatonin is ****e

Kimbot · 23-01-2020 06:21PM

Making some drugs legal would be a great move, cannabis has its medical uses and should be available to people that are suffering even after trying all legal options.

joeguevara · 24-01-2020 04:54AM

Here is the only argument that anyone needs on this subject:

Who do you want to control the substances that goes into people’s bodies : criminals or pharmacists.

While it is illegal, people are making the choice of criminals controlling what’s ingested. There is no other thing that matters.

People can talk about decriminalisation, harsh sentences, rehabilitation, education. It’s all bs.

Until it is produced legally in a laboratory, we are allowing criminals play Russian roulette.

Until someone can say otherwise there is no point debating.

My opinion of course.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 24-01-2020 05:53AM

joeguevara wrote: »

Here is the only argument that anyone needs on this subject:

Who do you want to control the substances that goes into people’s bodies : criminals or pharmacists.

While it is illegal, people are making the choice of criminals controlling what’s ingested. There is no other thing that matters.

People can talk about decriminalisation, harsh sentences, rehabilitation, education. It’s all bs.

Until it is produced legally in a laboratory, we are allowing criminals play Russian roulette.

Until someone can say otherwise there is no point debating.

My opinion of course.

How about we continue the fight against criminals bringing drugs into the country...

But at the same time increase our efforts to help those with drug addiction problems, but don't stop there either... get to kids at a young age, and show them a better life path than taking these drugs in the first place! Give them much better alternative life choices, and hope that most will take those better paths...?

Of course, you'll probably argue that you can never hope to eradicate recreational drug use completely from any society... and I would generally agree... BUT with the right measures, you could drastically reduce it. I have no doubt about that.

Most people would agree that we currently do not do nearly enough to help people with addictions, or to prevent kids from taking drugs in the first place... so why not focus our efforts on those areas, before we start taking the very extreme measure of legalizing dangerous drugs?

Until we can say we have done everything within our abilities on this end of the problem, I do not think there is a strong enough argument for the sorts of extreme solutions you are advocating...

Although counter to your frankly arrogant stance, I actually do think every facet of this is worthy of debate... even the more extreme ideas... I do not favour them, currently, but I welcome their inclusion in the debate.

joeguevara · 24-01-2020 06:05AM

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

How about we continue the fight against criminals bringing drugs into the country...

But at the same time increase our efforts to help those with drug addiction problems, but don't stop there either... get to kids at a young age, and show them a better life path than taking these drugs in the first place! Give them much better alternative life choices, and hope that most will take those better paths...?

Of course, you'll probably argue that you can never hope to eradicate recreational drug use completely from any society... and I would generally agree... BUT with the right measures, you could drastically reduce it. I have no doubt about that.

Most people would agree that we currently do not do nearly enough to help people with addictions, or to prevent kids from taking drugs in the first place... so why not focus our efforts on those areas, before we start taking the very extreme measure of legalizing dangerous drugs?

Until we can say we have done everything within our abilities on this end of the problem, I do not think there is a strong enough argument for the sorts of extreme solutions you are advocating...

Although counter to your frankly arrogant stance, I actually do think every facet of this is worthy of debate... even the more extreme ideas... I do not favour them, currently, but I welcome their inclusion in the debate.

You have some great points.

I don’t particularly like you saying I have an arrogant stance. I’m the furthest thing from arrogant but will move on.

The main issue i see from what you have posted is you immediately equate drugs with addiction, rehabilitation and reduction. That is why the current debate is flawed because the majority of people who take drugs (I don’t) aren’t addicted, don’t need rehabilitation and do so because they like it.

So when people debate drugs and talk about the very worst part it doesn’t resonate.

So back to the crux. People take drugs. Who should control what they ingest..criminals or pharmacists.

Also, decriminalisation is inherently flawed because society is still allowing criminals decide what poison people take.

Potential-Monke · 24-01-2020 06:32AM

Decriminalisation of personal use is the first step, imo, to reduce the amount of drug related violence and deaths. Flogging a dead horse here, but just listened to it on the radio, Portugal. They had roughly the same amount of deaths per year directly related to drug use, 330 or something iirc. Ireland has the same with half the population. Portugal decriminalised, and 20 years later they have 23 deaths per year due to drug use. People in the 15-24 year old bracket are taking far less drugs than the same group 20 years ago. People in Portugal caught with a personal amount still have repercussions, but it's more of a helping hand to understand why they take them and help them get off it, rather than banging them in jail or giving them a criminal record. The number of HIV cases dropped from 1016 in 2001 to 56! in 2012.

Pretty good article about it here, with hapes of references for people to check: https://transformdrugs.org/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight/

As said on the radio, putting users into prison or giving them a criminal record benefits absolutely no-one, and further stigmatises people who use them, instead of helping them. Decriminalisation would be a stepping stone to change that, and while it would mean less people in prison for drug offences, and less criminal records, it doesn't exclude the fact that dealers and importers are still dealt with as per current legislation, that is they will get massive fines and prison time. Decriminalising does not mean the drug trade will go crazy and everyone will be off their heads, there's too much evidence out there to the contrary (again, Portugal being the best example as it's one of the few countries to have lots of data on this (20 years).

And I do understand that a lot of people get offered drugs over in Portugal, but I wonder is this only in the main touristy areas, or everywhere. Seems to be the main tourist areas, dealers are just taking advantage of the visitors who actually do want drugs. Portugal should clamp down on this imo.

Also, by legalising cannabis, you're taking one of the most profitable drugs for criminal gangs out of their hands. I've no doubt more people would stop the harder stuff if they could get proper quality cannabis under controlled conditions. Even better, lots of people would start growing their own, saving hundreds which would be then spent on the economy, instead of going to the criminal organisations. I think that people are still too narrow minded when it comes to the big bad wolf that is drugs, cemented by growing up in a Catholic country controlled by the church (chruch: drugs bad, sex with little boys swept under the carpet). A the saving to the Garda time and resources would be astromonical, having served as a member myself. Too much time spent chasing the users (because no one will give a statement against the dealers) that could be re-diverted to the catching the dealers and other associated crime. Even the ex-Commissioner believes decriminalisation of drugs is the best way forward.

I can't see anything happening anytime soon, we just need more of the older generation to die off so we can have a proper talk about it.

joeguevara · 24-01-2020 06:57AM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Decriminalisation of personal use is the first step, imo, to reduce the amount of drug related violence and deaths. Flogging a dead horse here, but just listened to it on the radio, Portugal. They had roughly the same amount of deaths per year directly related to drug use, 330 or something iirc. Ireland has the same with half the population. Portugal decriminalised, and 20 years later they have 23 deaths per year due to drug use. People in the 15-24 year old bracket are taking far less drugs than the same group 20 years ago. People in Portugal caught with a personal amount still have repercussions, but it's more of a helping hand to understand why they take them and help them get off it, rather than banging them in jail or giving them a criminal record. The number of HIV cases dropped from 1016 in 2001 to 56! in 2012.

Pretty good article about it here, with hapes of references for people to check: https://transformdrugs.org/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight/

As said on the radio, putting users into prison or giving them a criminal record benefits absolutely no-one, and further stigmatises people who use them, instead of helping them. Decriminalisation would be a stepping stone to change that, and while it would mean less people in prison for drug offences, and less criminal records, it doesn't exclude the fact that dealers and importers are still dealt with as per current legislation, that is they will get massive fines and prison time. Decriminalising does not mean the drug trade will go crazy and everyone will be off their heads, there's too much evidence out there to the contrary (again, Portugal being the best example as it's one of the few countries to have lots of data on this (20 years).

And I do understand that a lot of people get offered drugs over in Portugal, but I wonder is this only in the main touristy areas, or everywhere. Seems to be the main tourist areas, dealers are just taking advantage of the visitors who actually do want drugs. Portugal should clamp down on this imo.

Also, by legalising cannabis, you're taking one of the most profitable drugs for criminal gangs out of their hands. I've no doubt more people would stop the harder stuff if they could get proper quality cannabis under controlled conditions. Even better, lots of people would start growing their own, saving hundreds which would be then spent on the economy, instead of going to the criminal organisations. I think that people are still too narrow minded when it comes to the big bad wolf that is drugs, cemented by growing up in a Catholic country controlled by the church (chruch: drugs bad, sex with little boys swept under the carpet). A the saving to the Garda time and resources would be astromonical, having served as a member myself. Too much time spent chasing the users (because no one will give a statement against the dealers) that could be re-diverted to the catching the dealers and other associated crime. Even the ex-Commissioner believes decriminalisation of drugs is the best way forward.

I can't see anything happening anytime soon, we just need more of the older generation to die off so we can have a proper talk about it.

Again some excellent points in this post and on the face of it nothing to argue against. But it still misses the point. If you decriminalise drugs you are still allowing criminals decide what drugs and mix goes into peoples bodies. The fact that the end user isn’t prosecuted for possession doesn’t mitigate the fact that a criminal has effectively decided the poison he or she will take.

With regards your cannabis argument that may have been true 20 years ago but not anymore. Drug gangs who sell cocaine are rarely involved in cannabis because of grow houses locally. Also look at US states where cannabis can be bought from vending machines after being legally grown and sold, stil have major issues with all other drugs.

At the end of the day, society has to understand that people take drugs and like doing so. Should those drugs be manufactured safely and in clean laboratories or somewhere where the health of end user is irrelevant.

topmanamillion · 24-01-2020 07:32AM

The "let's copy the Netherlands" argument is weak at best. Its a bit like saying let's copy the French approach to drinking. Ignoring the fact alcoholism is rampant over there and 50,000 French men and women are dying prematurely from alcohol related diseases every year.

Street dealing is widespread in Amsterdam. There's no regulation of Marijuana as it's illegal to grow it but legal to sell or some such nonsense loophole. So the potency of it varies widely from vendor to vendor.

Legalise cannabis and who's going to sell it? It'll be the people in this country that know most about its sale. That's not Jimmy with the 9-5 and 2.5 children.

There'll always be a criminal element to currently illegal drugs. Only strains of cannabis fit for human consumption would be approved for sale meaning the more potent strains would be left in criminals hands.

Legalise cocaine and the same would happen. There's be a newer more deadlier, more potent variety available in the morning made from toxic waste that people would sell their own grandmother's to snort it up their nose for a €100 a go.

But let's continue to believe the myths that Holland is a utopia because Marijuana is semi legal and that the French are sophisticated because they expose their children to alcohol consumption at a young age. We've much to learn from them but not in the way this thread is leaning twoards.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 24-01-2020 07:33AM

joeguevara wrote: »

You have some great points.

I don’t particularly like you saying I have an arrogant stance. I’m the furthest thing from arrogant but will move on.

The main issue i see from what you have posted is you immediately equate drugs with addiction, rehabilitation and reduction. That is why the current debate is flawed because the majority of people who take drugs (I don’t) aren’t addicted, don’t need rehabilitation and do so because they like it.

So when people debate drugs and talk about the very worst part it doesn’t resonate.

So back to the crux. People take drugs. Who should control what they ingest..criminals or pharmacists.

Also, decriminalisation is inherently flawed because society is still allowing criminals decide what poison people take.

See now this is where I think there is a massive blind spot on this issue...

So-called moderate users of drugs, not only don't think they are part of the problem... you don't even think you are part of the equation. But you are!

Just because you don't need rehab or your drug use is not taking over your life... this doesn't mean you don't have a problem. You likely do have a problem, it's just not as severe as other people... but you are definitely still part of the problem!

We live in a society where many people can have moderate to serious alcohol addiction, but they don't even recognise it because they are still going to work on a monday morning and managing to function reasonably well... and possibly all their mates are in the same boat. They're not looking at each other and seeing mild alcohol dependency... but that's often exactly what it is in reality!

Or you have people who constantly need drugs from their pharmacy, because they're always mildly sick with some ailment... because they're unhealthy and can't break free from this cycle...

All these people are part of the collective problem in society... you don't need to be sleeping under a park bench with a bottle of wine or addicted to painkillers etc to be a problem...

100,000's or even millions of people needing to take drugs every week of their life in order to have a good time or function at a better level day-to-day... that's a problem in society... and it's actually a much bigger problem overall than many people realize! And of course it puts in place a culture where the serious problem users are more likely to occur...

If drug use in general in society - even moderate use - was much lower, cases of serious problem users would be lower too. If we didn't have such a strong culture of recreational alcohol use... there would be far less cases of serious alcoholics too... both things very much go hand in hand together. They are just different degrees of the same issue!

Now, you might say I'm not harming anyone and it's my choice... I'm in control of my personal use... I'm not here to tell you, as an individual, how to live your life...

But as far as I can see, the push to legalize dangerous drugs is actually coming from a selfish and frankly snobbish mindset... people who feel they are more moderate users or in more control of their usage, don't like being lumped in with problem addicts or in any way connected to underworld criminals... that's the main motivation behind the push for legalization!

But you are connected to those people... you are part of the equation and the wider problem. Just like the rich man or woman sitting at home, polishing off bottles of super expensive wine is still very much part of the problem... You don't exist in a vacuum free from scrutiny or judgement.

And while you are free to live your life how you wish, you should not have the power to change the entire legal framework of a country... just so you can feel better about your chosen lifestyle!

Would legalization of drugs be passed?

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