Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Strazdas wrote: »

In a normal, functioning democracy, the Brexit process would have been quickly abandoned when it was realised by everyone the damage it was inflicting on society.

What has happened in Britain is that they have ploughed on ahead with it, in the full knowledge that it could destroy the country in the process.

Society is to blame?

Bit cynical wrote: »

Society is to blame?

Everything really. A shocking number of people seem to have bought into the idea that "it will be the end of democracy in the UK if the referendum result is not implemented" idea. Nonsensical slogans, populism and 'identity' winning out even against the notion of trying to protect the economy and people's livelihoods from being wiped out.

I'm not sure we've seen anything like this in any developed country in the last 50-60 years.

Slightly tangential to the topic at hand but, is anyone else observing a sense of...I guess you could call it despairing resolve...since these Brexit and Trump developments? Its difficult to articulate precisely, but I get a sense that the shattering of old beliefs that these two events have entailed, has unleashed an almost cannibalistic impulse on the part of more and more people in society. The same people who might previously have say, campaigned against climate change or gone into social work for the hope of changing the world for the better or even just taken a more altruistic view on politics and the economy; these same people are now left with an enduring desire to simply smash and grab. A new view (or should I say an old view just maybe more popular) seems to have arisen where one forgoes the common good and just tries to get what one can and damn the future and the justification might be if people will vote against their own interests why should anyone else not try to profit from that? I would be interested to know if anyone else has observed something along those lines; I mean in one sense it's not a new way of living, I'm just wondering if it's become more prominent in peoples observation?

strandroad wrote: »

It won't be getting any better after Brexit, according to the reports:



https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/jul/03/brexit-putting-pupils-off-modern-foreign-languages

One stat I found shocking on a related link - only 12,000 did French and German combined for A-levels, compared to 41,000 studying a language in Ireland, which would scale up to 500,000 on the UK population:

https://careersportal.ie/careerplanning/story.php?ID=2501203606

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

A new view (or should I say an old view just maybe more popular) seems to have arisen where one forgoes the common good and just tries to get what one can and damn the future and the justification might be if people will vote against their own interests why should anyone else not try to profit from that?

That could be turned around though. Just because some people see profit in something does automatically not make it the wrong thing to do. So for example, a Northern English working class pensioner might know that some people will profit from Brexit but nevertheless continue to support Brexit for personal ideological reasons.

beggars_bush wrote: »

But the posh schools will do Latin or Greek
Just to allow the graduates sound pompous in a few years

Specifically Ancient Greek, lest it be vaguely useful

Strazdas wrote: »

One side gloating, triumphal and high fiving each other and the other subdued into complete silence is a disaster in the making.

And the side who 'lost' watching the side who 'won' embolden the Tories to make all their lives more precarious. Meanwhile the side who 'won' will be told that all Britain's problems are the fault of a vindictive EU.

Can't see any positive outcome for Britain unless they forge a new socio-economic paradigm which is simply not in the nature of the Tories or thier backers.

Under Other +295%, they must be studying Mandarin.

CelticRambler wrote: »

A little bit of Brexiter-like cherrypicking going on there, An Ciarraioch - comparing the two worst take-up languages in the UK with all languages combined in Ireland. :P

As Nody's graph & link above show, the British have enthusiastically switched from "old Europe" languages to Brazilian, Polish, Arabic and Chinese. Global Britain, innit? :cool:

"Brazilian" is that the language of wax? It would be interesting to compare those numbers to ethnicity stats.

Oafley Jones wrote: »

"Brazilian" is that the language of wax? It would be interesting to compare those numbers to ethnicity stats.

I may have over-enthusiastically applied my cynicism filter when interpreting the figures. I suppose it's quite possible that Sunderland Man (and family) has developed a sudden urge to learn Portuguese so as to better appreciate their two weeks' annual holiday on the beaches of Albufeira ... :rolleyes:

But yes, it would be very interesting to see how many native Brits are learning those non-traditional languages. Very few, I suspect - which creates yet another Global Britain paradox: to what extent can Brexiters claim credit for opportunities in China, South America and the Middle East if they rely on the immigrant population to talk to these people?

Nody wrote: »

Well look at the numbers, UK 30k tests over all languages on a population of 66 million. Ireland 41k tests on a population of just shy of 5 million. UK should be around 560k language tests at equal levels of people taking the test.

Yeah but ... remember the effective equivalent of the Leaving Cert in the UK is the GCSE, for which there are the hundreds of thousands (even if less than the pro rata 500k) Even today, when most secondary school students in Ireland are expecting to stay in full-time education until they have at least one undergraduate degree, it's still considered perfectly normal in England to leave school once you've done your GCSEs. And most of those who do A-levels are happy to take just three.

We're back again to how our two countries place different values on education.

Nody wrote: »

And that's the problem; they are still thinking it's the 70s but the world has moved on and they have not. It's basically the whole Brexit debate all over again ...

More than that, the practical implementation of Brexit is going to worsen the situation for the "natives" when EU-trained immigrant teachers are progressively replaced by non-EU immigrants, and the schools that employ them (to teach A-level subjects) will be teaching classes of highly motivated Asians and Arabs, with a smattering of Eastern Europeans and South Americans.

The economic impact of Brexit will inevitably reduce funding for schools, creating competition for places in the best establishments, and those places will not be won by Kylie or Daryl with their seven GCSEs. Whether it takes a decade or a generation, the effect of Brexit will be to noticeably darken the skin colour of Britain's educated classes.

Reading a few comments from EU based Brits in the Guardian comments today and they say the UK has done itself enormous reputational damage in the last three and a half years. Most continentals now regard the British as a bunch of hooligans and vandals, not just the UK politicians and the media, but the general population.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Did they ever think otherwise? I mean, I know lots of lovely English, Scottish, Welsh people and people who identify as British from Ulster, but if you were to ask me what my opinion of British people generally was, it is very poor. Maybe thats from a uniquely Irish perspective, but I think we have our view and we know what the British think of themselves, but I cant imagine they were particularly well liked outside of US, Oz and Canada.

The main change that I see is that peoples tolerance for British exceptionalism is coming to an end. Previously when a British person would say something like "we have the best educational system in the world" or "the NHS is a uniquely British system" others might have smiled and nodded polietly. Now they are being questioned on it.

On a more tangible level, the UK has lost all its former prestiege in the UN with the Diego Garcia/Chagos Islands debacle. And their handling of the Hong Kong / China issue showed just how weak and ineffectual they are diplomatically.

Luckily British exceptionalism means that they dont even see foreign opinions of themselves, so they can continue to live in their bubble.

One of the commenters was saying that English football hooligans and yobs on the Costa del Sol had been seen as an aberration and not at all in keeping with the generally positive image of the UK as a place of tolerance and fair play. But all of that has gone out of the window with rise of the very loud and opinionated "Leave voter".