Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

theological · 27-12-2019 11:24AM

First Up wrote: »

The "democratic deficit" gives Ireland and other small countries a seat at the table and an equal vote with the large nations. That's what a union of sovereign states means.

If it was a parliament "in the true sense" you would be accusing it of ruling over the "super state" you say the evil EU wants to become.

I didn't say that the EU wants to be a super state, so please respond to my posts rather than anyone else's.

You could ask me what I think rather than telling me what I think. I was replying to a poster who told us on this thread that the European Parliaments are where decisions are made. This isn't true. This is where decisions made by the European Commission are rubber stamped.

If there is a fear of the larger countries in the EU dominating over member states if the European Parliament had more power surely that just demonstrates that the EU is too big and has too much control over matters that should be deferred to national parliaments.

Perhaps a better model would be that legislation can be proposed to national parliaments from the European Commission and then accepted, amended, or rejected in national parliaments. Or indeed that national parliaments can propose legislation that can be considered across Europe.

The reality is that the EU doesn't want reform, it wants to stay the way it is. The UK decided that this wasn't good enough for them and they decided to leave and take back control. That's a respectable decision.

27-12-2019 11:25AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I accept the incompetence of this country.

Who controlled the levers after?

The Bundesbank through the ECB. That is who. That is why the country was asset stripped and made to enforce devaluation internally through our national budget. Because we don't have what sovereign countries have - the ability to devalue our currency.

Germany is strong when the periphery is weak.

Don't ever forget that.

But that strength is historical, and would be the case anyway.

Ireland's biggest issue is its debt I thought. Devaluing would make it more expensive to pay off surely. You have to go back to the creation of the euro to get away from that.

What's your thoughts on what would be best now? Or what should have happened?

ancapailldorcha · 27-12-2019 11:32AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Ignore the core meaning of the argument like all deniers do with diversion and nonsense.

Here it is again.

Explain how the Bundesbank does not control the ECB....you can't!? Really!!???

Dismissed.

Can you substantiate this at all or are you just ranting, hoping someone else will make your point for you?

First Up · 27-12-2019 11:44AM

theological wrote:

The reality is that the EU doesn't want reform, it wants to stay the way it is. The UK decided that this wasn't good enough for them and they decided to leave and take back control. That's a respectable decision.

A decision that they and every other EU member is free to make.

The EU has evolved from a 6 country commission overseeing the coal and steel industries into a 28 country single market and trade bloc that can compete with the US, China and anyone else. You think that can happen without "reform"?

There is lots going on within the EU every day; big differences between France and Germany (and others) about enlargement, immigration, convergence third party trade agreements and much more. These and other topics are debated passionately every day. The EU has not "stayed the way it is" for more than a few weeks any time in the last 20 years.

But the strength of the union is the union itself; compromise, mutual respect and a rules based system of governance. Forget the guff about German dominance; other smaller and poorer countries (Ireland included) have grown far faster than Germany. Yes, the euro benefits German exports. It benefits everyone else's too.

Ireland messed up its own economy. So did Greece. We were both bloody lucky to have the EU there to pull us out of the mess.

First Up · 27-12-2019 11:53AM

theological wrote:

You could ask me what I think rather than telling me what I think. I was replying to a poster who told us on this thread that the European Parliaments are where decisions are made. This isn't true. This is where decisions made by the European Commission are rubber stamped.

You know nothing of how the EU works. Nothing emerges from the Commission that hasn't been hammered out between representatives across all member states for months if not years. Most decisions get through parliament quickly because all the thorny issues have been sorted already.

Everyone gets their say. The Commision is a secretariat, not an autocracy.

Kidchameleon · 27-12-2019 12:05PM

54and56 wrote: »

Nothing has been grabbed. EU member countries have democratically decided to club together for mutually beneficial reasons. No one is forcing any country to do anything it doesn't want to do.

Lisbon Treaty /your argument

US2 · 27-12-2019 12:13PM

First Up wrote: »

A decision that they and every other EU member is free to make.

The EU has evolved from a 6 country commission overseeing the coal and steel industries into a 28 country single market and trade bloc that can compete with the US, China and anyone else. You think that can happen without "reform"?

There is lots going on within the EU every day; big differences between France and Germany (and others) about enlargement, immigration, convergence third party trade agreements and much more. These and other topics are debated passionately every day. The EU has not "stayed the way it is" for more than a few weeks any time in the last 20 years.

But the strength of the union is the union itself; compromise, mutual respect and a rules based system of governance. Forget the guff about German dominance; other smaller and poorer countries (Ireland included) have grown far faster than Germany. Yes, the euro benefits German exports. It benefits everyone else's too.

Ireland messed up its own economy. So did Greece. We were both bloody lucky to have the EU there to pull us out of the mess.

That last piece shows you really shouldn't be posting here. Clueless.

First Up · 27-12-2019 12:16PM

US2 wrote:

That last piece shows you really shouldn't be posting here. Clueless.

Oh right. Only those who messed up their own finances are entitled to express a view eh?

First Up · 27-12-2019 12:16PM

Kidchameleon wrote:

Lisbon Treaty /your argument

What's yours?

27-12-2019 12:18PM

US2 wrote: »

That last piece shows you really shouldn't be posting here. Clueless.

We'd be better off in the Atlantic outside it?

Kermit.de.frog · 27-12-2019 12:25PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Can you substantiate this at all or are you just ranting, hoping someone else will make your point for you?

Another one who thinks blindly it's a union of equals. :rolleyes:

I already explained it but you don't care enough to read.

But it does not matter what I or anyone else say - you will still believe in it.

SantaCruz · 27-12-2019 12:29PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Another one who thinks blindly it's a union of equals. :rolleyes:

I already explained it but you don't care enough to read.

But it does not matter what I or anyone else say - you will still believe in it.

You have not 'explained', you have made some standard UKIP/Brexit Party claims that have been debunked here and elsewhere many times.

If I'd had the humiliation of posting a classic fictional quote to support my claims, I'd be re-evaluating all the nonsense I currently believe, rather than doubling down on a belief system that's clearly not based in objective reality.

I look forward to you quouting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion shortly to support some other idiotic claim.

SantaCruz · 27-12-2019 12:33PM

US2 wrote: »

That last piece shows you really shouldn't be posting here. Clueless.

The last piece about how FF in Ireland and the Greeks messed up their own economies?

If you have any interest in the latter, you might want to read the epic Vanity Fair article, 'Beware of Greeks Bearing Bonds'.

Warning - contains facts.

SantaCruz · 27-12-2019 12:35PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Germany is strong when the periphery is weak.

Another classic fallacy. 'For X to be rich, Y needs to be poor'. Absolute nonsense.

ancapailldorcha · 27-12-2019 12:37PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Another one who thinks blindly it's a union of equals. :rolleyes:

I already explained it but you don't care enough to read.

But it does not matter what I or anyone else say - you will still believe in it.

That's a "no", then.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-12-2019 12:39PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's a "no", then.

Eh no, as I just said I have already made the argument successfully.

I am not going to to go over it it again for every denier.

First Up · 27-12-2019 12:39PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

Another one who thinks blindly it's a union of equals.

Nobody ever said it was. But you miss the union bit.

First Up · 27-12-2019 12:41PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

Eh no, as I just said I have already made the argument successfully.

All evidence to the contrary.

Kidchameleon · 27-12-2019 12:45PM

First Up wrote: »

All evidence to the contrary.

Please provide said evidence

First Up · 27-12-2019 12:46PM

Kidchameleon wrote:

Please provide said evidence

Your posts.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-12-2019 12:50PM

They won't provide evidence.

I put my case articulately - but because it is true and they are indoctrinated to believe the opposite they simply can't entertain it as an argument - even though it is fact. We are in post fact world.

It's sad. I am not going to continuously repeat fact when it is not taken on board as fact. They prefer their fiction.

Nothing can be done.

Kidchameleon · 27-12-2019 12:51PM

First Up wrote: »

Your posts.

That is not an argument. Please provide citations of your claims

27-12-2019 01:01PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Nothing can be done.

Propose what should be done.

Brexit has created a schism where the middle ground is largely lost. But ignoring that, what do you think is the best way forward?

theological · 27-12-2019 01:10PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Propose what should be done.

Brexit has created a schism where the middle ground is largely lost. But ignoring that, what do you think is the best way forward?

To leave the EU on January 31st and to negotiate a free trade arrangement with the EU and other countries I would have thought.

Why? Well - because the people have voted for it on 3 separate occasions now.

It's time to move on. At least that's the impression I get from British people, it's the impression I have myself as an Irish person living there. The country needs to move on to other priorities.

With a non paralysed parliament Johnson can do that. That's the main reason I voted Conservative in the election (as a 2016 remain voter).

ancapailldorcha · 27-12-2019 01:17PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They won't provide evidence.

I put my case articulately - but because it is true and they are indoctrinated to believe the opposite they simply can't entertain it as an argument - even though it is fact. We are in post fact world.

It's sad. I am not going to continuously repeat fact when it is not taken on board as fact. They prefer their fiction.

Nothing can be done.

No, you haven't. You've just ranted incoherently and then expected other people to do the work of disproving your points when they're patently nonsense.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-12-2019 01:28PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

No, you haven't. You've just ranted incoherently and then expected other people to do the work of disproving your points when they're patently nonsense.

Quote my points. Very articulate and coherent.

The EU is German dominance by a means other than military.

I'm not going to be a parrot for deniers.

27-12-2019 01:29PM

theological wrote: »

To leave the EU on January 31st and to negotiate a free trade arrangement with the EU and other countries I would have thought.

Why? Well - because the people have voted for it on 3 separate occasions now.

It's time to move on. At least that's the impression I get from British people, it's the impression I have myself as an Irish person living there. The country needs to move on to other priorities.

With a non paralysed parliament Johnson can do that. That's the main reason I voted Conservative in the election (as a 2016 remain voter).

My post was from an Irish perspective where we have not had a Brexit, and to an Irish poster. I meant that Brexit has just entrenched a lot of the ideas regarding it and the middle ground is a bit lost.

I look forward to the UK forging forward. They have shown that it's what they want and while the future is unclear, the underlying of it unambiguous.

Fogmatic · 27-12-2019 01:39PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I am not going to to go over it it again for every denier.

Why does your vocabulary remind me of that of Scientology recruiters (and of even worse people in modern history)?

I can only assume you're a victim of the same kind of poisonous populist propaganda that's been excluding reasoned debate from the UK media and whipping up hate between its citizens.

johnnyskeleton · 27-12-2019 01:40PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They don't have to order anything. No country's governor not already bankrupt will dare go against anything the Bundesbank says.

So you will get the bankrupts and near insolvents queuing up saying what the Bundesbank should do - the core countries will never do that because they know where their bread is buttered in Germany.

The ECB was set up with a mandate to control inflation below 2%. That is undoubtedly inspired by the German experience of hyperinflation, but it is a policy that makes a lot of sense to the other Eurozone member states. Crucially, it is something that they all signed up to.

In times of crisis, many wanted to change this policy informally, and the ECB said no. There is probably no appetite for treaty change or other Council level changes to this ECB policy.

Spain, for example, and even worse in Italy - these countries are close to economic collapse. Italy is a time bomb (in absolute debt terms a third world country masquarading as a first world one and that is before you look at their banks) - they can't get out of it because they don't have the monetary tools.

They are experiencing economic difficulties, but neither Spain nor Italy are close to economic collapse. Economic collapse is usually caused when a country tried to print money to get out of their problems and ends up in an inflationary spiral. See, for example, Zimbabwe. The other major restriction imposed by Europe is the Debt:GDP and deficit rules. However, these aren't some random theory of many, but are a reflection of the reality that if any country borrows and spends too much for too long, they will end up bankrupt.

So, if Italy had control of their currency and could borrow what they like, they would either chose something similar to what they have now, or they would risk hyperinflation and default. There are nuanced positions within that e.g. borrow slightly more etc, but those are possible in the EU framework. Indeed, Italy are breaching those rules currently.

It's a prison - what are they to do? All they can do is devalue internally through their budgets.

This is severe and leads to social disorder, chaos and deprivation.

Unfortunately, social disorder chaos and deprivation are the result of years of bad economic policy. Even more unfortunately, politicians like to blame the EU instead of blaming themselves, and people lapp this up. See, for example, deprived areas of Northern England voting Tory.

We are forced to internally devalue through our budgets because Germany is perfectly content and won't do ANYTHING to relieve it because they profit from it through their own exports.

That's some "solidarity" eh?

But it is truth people don't want to hear.

As for Ireland, thank Christ we had good buddies during our crisis who, instead of plamasing us, told us we were in trouble and gave us a way out. Ireland would most likely be in a state of decline now had we not taken necessary measures

ancapailldorcha · 27-12-2019 01:47PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Quote my points. Very articulate and coherent.

The EU is German dominance by a means other than military.

I'm not going to be a parrot for deniers.

I live in the UK where I can see firsthand where people taking this silly nonsense seriously leads. Since you have no evidence, I'm not wasting any more time on this.

Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

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