Irish Army - Lebanon

Signore Fancy Pants · 23-12-2019 08:30PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

I am sure it was different in Lebanon in the 80's and 90's but had a co-worker who had been on a different overseas mission and the way he described it really did sound like they did nothing much at all and was viewed as handy money.

Certainly compared to a (non-US, non-Brit) guy I knew who was in Afghanistan who described a a very different thing.

The difference is that "Ireland Inc." are not at war with anyone, whereas the U.S and U.K, well you know the rest.

Peacekeeping and Peace Enforcement missions are a very different thing to conventional offensive and defensive warfare, of which have established boundaries and certanties.

Our missions are largely 6 month rotations with minor variations. We also have some 4 month to 3 year rotations also. You usually act as a "referee" between two conflicting sides and report and respond as needed.

I have been on very quiet 6 month rotations where it was routine and I have been on busy 6 month rotations where lads came into contact.

There have been a number of occasions where Irish lads have been directly shot at and had to respond, sometimes positioning themselves between two parties who were "at it" in order to de-escalate the situation.

Some missions are busier than others and some people in those missions have jobs busier than others, so accounts will vary.

It's not glamorous, it's not "Rambo-esque", it can be boring and it can be hectic. That's just the way it is.

On the money, yeah people say it's handy but it is all relative. I got about an extra €500 per week while serving overseas. Is it worth it to be away from your family for 6 months? Thats up to each person to decide. Personally, no it isnt, especially as there is normally a 3 month training period before deployment where you are mostly away from your family too.

The money might seem brilliant but money is only money and you cant get time back. Some lads do depend on it though.

Mad_maxx · 23-12-2019 08:30PM

Username you choose wrote: »

What exactly are they doing over there? Sick of the love in with the army abroad and the "great work" they do... Meh...

Get them home here to help the Garda with the armed scum terrorising neighborhood.
________________________________________________________
Okay look I stand corrected. I apologise to those who I offended. I didn't do my research in fairness and I received a few pm from those who had lost friends and family members.

Hopefully they will accept my apologies

You'd struggle to name a country which has less respect for it's armed forces than this one

jmreire · 23-12-2019 09:05PM

Mad_maxx wrote: »

You'd struggle to name a country which has less respect for it's armed forces than this one

You could well be right in that Mad_maxx, but with some exceptions ( country's where westerners' are hated anyway) the Irish Army are held in high esteem....I have worked in places where there was an Irish contingent based, and have seen local people becoming very upset indeed when they hear that the Irish were being replaced by another UN military contingent.They are more appreciated abroad than at home.

kowloon · 23-12-2019 10:23PM

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I always get the feeling that a lot of defence forces folks seem to think they should be put up on a pedestal for being in the army etc. Thankfully we don’t like in a country where the defence forces are fetishised - unlike that nauseating ‘thank you for your service’ bollocks you encounter in the US.

Well done and all, but it’s the job you signed up for. Personally think the idea of dying for your country is ridiculous and extremely stupid, but to each their own and all that.

The US 'thank you for your service' thing is largely part of the culture because of an intersection between jingoism and guilt over the way their troops have been treated by the public in the past. Y
Ireland has never had that kind of relationship with our DFs, they get the piss taken out of them all the time and don't get any kind of extra status like (ex-)servicemen get in other countries. I've heard more people talk about GAA players as heroes than anyone else, which I find strange.
Anyway, despite this, despite our Army not sticking it to the fuzzy-wuzzies or some other group to prove how powerful we are as a nation, I think you'll find most Irish people are proud of our troops for being something positive in the world.
I think they'd prefer a living wage to being thanked by a bumper sticker on some flag fetishists Hilux.

Edgware · 23-12-2019 10:51PM

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I always get the feeling that a lot of defence forces folks seem to think they should be put up on a pedestal for being in the army etc. Thankfully we don’t like in a country where the defence forces are fetishised - unlike that nauseating ‘thank you for your service’ bollocks you encounter in the US.

Well done and all, but it’s the job you signed up for. Personally think the idea of dying for your country is ridiculous and extremely stupid, but to each their own and all that.

Thankfully we have real men and women who think otherwise. I can just imagine in 1920 collaborating with your imperial masters

Wibbs · 23-12-2019 11:12PM

Edgware wrote: »

Thankfully we have real men and women who think otherwise. I can just imagine in 1920 collaborating with your imperial masters

To be fair to JF E, sadly the vast majority of people would do exactly the same. Some would collaborate, most would ignore and/or try to keep the status quo. I dunno if you work in an office or similar E, but if you do, look around at the however many folks you work with. If some crazy regime took over now imagine you were a member of whatever scapegoat the regime marked out as being The Problem(tm)- and there's always a simple scapegoat(s) to fix The Problem. Now imagine they came looking for you. Out of those nice people that will pass the time with you chatting, being part of the secret santas and the like? Maybe one would forcefully object, more would make rumblings but do nothing, most would keep their head down and fret about it "being awful but..." after you were marched out. Heroes and rebels are rare, that's one reason why we pin medals on them.

Peppa Cig · 23-12-2019 11:30PM

“Defence Forces”

Serious question - what is the real world capability to defend this island from enemy forces?

Maybe should be rebranded as “Peacekeeping Volunteers” or similar given Ireland “neutral status”.

end of the road · 23-12-2019 11:36PM

Peppa Cig wrote: »

“Defence Forces”

Serious question - what is the real world capability to defend this island from enemy forces?

Maybe should be rebranded as “Peacekeeping Volunteers” or similar given Ireland “neutral status”.

defense forces is fine.

that is what they are.

SafeSurfer · 23-12-2019 11:59PM

Mad_maxx wrote: »

You'd struggle to name a country which has less respect for it's armed forces than this one

I think you are right. I live quite close to a fairly large Irish army base and the army personnel are not very respected. In fact the army is regarded in the community as a bit of a joke. Civilian workers who get a job in “the camp” are also seen as having an easy number.

The whole army deafness scandal and then the Army Band claiming for having not being issued with war protection was an embarrassment. People viewed the army as a bunch of chancers who do f*ck all.

The Irish army has a distinguished record of overseas peace keeping but has always been the poor relation in terms of resources and let’s be honest, the type of personnel it attracts.

Hoboo · 24-12-2019 12:08AM

Peppa Cig wrote: »

“Defence Forces”

Serious question - what is the real world capability to defend this island from enemy forces?

Maybe should be rebranded as “Peacekeeping Volunteers” or similar given Ireland “neutral status”.

Regardless of size or presumed capability vs a larger more equipped and manned country, they are what they are, they are our defence forces. And if the day came, they're the men and women who protect us first. I appreciate they are perceived as Brinks van minders and peacekeepers, but what they do abroad is nothing short of heroic. Keeping two sides apart is as tough as fighting one. Hats off to them.

24-12-2019 12:10AM

I'm sure I'm not the only person reading this thread with a family member serving there at the moment, worrying about them and missing them desperately this Christmas. Maybe some posters could keep that in mind.

Hoboo · 24-12-2019 12:13AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm sure I'm not the only person reading this thread with a family member serving there at the moment, worrying about them and missing them desperately this Christmas. Maybe some posters could keep that in mind.

Here here. No better reason to close this poxy thread.

Signore Fancy Pants · 24-12-2019 12:21AM

Peppa Cig wrote: »

“Defence Forces”

Serious question - what is the real world capability to defend this island from enemy forces?

Maybe should be rebranded as “Peacekeeping Volunteers” or similar given Ireland “neutral status”.

Well we are a Defence Force (Army, Air Corps, Naval Service, Reserves).

Our primary role is to defend the State against armed aggression.

Our secondary/tertiary role (under the United Nations/European Union/"NATO") is to provide military assistance to other countries in a peacekeeping, peace enforcement or humanitarian role as requested and agreed by the Irish government.

Also, peacekeepers are all volunteers anyway.

Our capability depends on the threat, obviously I wont be detailing specifics but lets be honest, realistically due to the limited size of Ireland, conventional tactics would fcuk us up in a number of days. Strategic bombing of all military installations could take place all in one day.

However, once ground troops came in, unconventional Guerilla warfare is where we would perform.

In all honesty, it's the political system which has stunted our capability, however capability is also borne from necessity and requires funding.....nobody likes funding the Defence Forces.

Recently the DF secured €10 Million in pay restoration for 8,500 or so troops.....an average of €1,176 each (not exactly though).

Then last week the the government found €6.5 Million to tempt 30 senior AGS members to take early retirement. An average of €216,666 each (not exactly though). But you get the point.

Traditionally, we are just an afterthought

We are just used to bolster Ireland international reputation and a bit of sandbagging when a storm comes.

OOnegative · 24-12-2019 12:23AM

My old man served 9 tours in the Leb, captured for a period in the early 80’s. Had his best mate killed beside him in open fire. He was never around during Christmas when I was growing up as it was the time he served. He genuinely lost his hearing due to his service in the Army, the man is stone deaf without his hearing aids. Because of this he was pushed out of a job he loved.

Yeah an absolute waster is my old man, ya prick!!!

Limpy · 24-12-2019 12:27AM

I think they go so RTE can get a 20 second clip for the news around Christmas. Que little kid jumping onto daddy's arm's.

Hoboo · 24-12-2019 12:33AM

Limpy wrote: »

I think they go so RTE can get a 20 second clip for the news around Christmas. Que little kid jumping onto daddy's arm's.

You should stop thinking, and start self-educating.

corner of hells · 24-12-2019 12:39AM

Limpy wrote: »

I think they go so RTE can get a 20 second clip for the news around Christmas. Que little kid jumping onto daddy's arm's.

I think you mean "cue" , que is the Spanish for what .

Signore Fancy Pants · 24-12-2019 12:46AM

Just to address these two points.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The whole army deafness scandal and then the Army Band claiming for having not being issued with war protection was an embarrassment. People viewed the army as a bunch of chancers who do f*ck all.

Yeah from the outside looking at it, its a big scandal, many years ago. But why did it happen? Nobody seems to want to recognise the issue which preceeded the claims.

Back in the day, troops were not issued with hearing protection despite calling for it for a long long time. If you have ever fired a weapon, you know how loud it is...it is a mini explosion right next to your ear like. Now imagine a bog standard day at the range firing about 100+ bullets per person, it takes quite a toll on the hearing over the years.

The issue was, they were not provided with the required essential protection. What lads did was buy their own hearing protection to stop damage to their hearing. They were then ordered to remove their own hearing protection because it was not officially issued kit. Hence, denying lads protecting their ears.

Thousands of troops had negatively effected hearing because of it. It was negligience on behalf of the State, simple as that.

Were there some chancers coming up to retirement throwing a claim in? Yes there were but the vast vast majority of claimants had genuine reduction in their ability to hear so were quite right to claim for loss of hearing.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The Irish army has a distinguished record of overseas peace keeping but has always been the poor relation in terms of resources and let’s be honest, the type of personnel it attracts.

What type of person does it attract? What type.of person do you think I am?

arybvtcw0eolkf · 24-12-2019 01:00AM

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Our capability depends on the threat, obviously I wont be detailing specifics but lets be honest, realistically due to the limited size of Ireland, conventional tactics would fcuk us up in a number of days. Strategic bombing of all military installations could take place all in one day.

However, once ground troops came in, unconventional Guerilla warfare is where we would perform.

'The War of the Flea'

The guerrilla fights the war of the flea, and his military enemy suffers the dog's disadvantages: too much to defend; too small, ubiquitous, and agile an enemy to come to grips with.

The War of the Flea: A Study of Guerrilla Warfare Theory and Practise
Book by Robert Taber.

An excellent book for anyone interested in Guerilla warfar, the politics and the tactics behind it.

We're a force (and a people) who have shown we're well able to punch above our weight, history has shown us this time and again.

Comparing us with the likes of the USA, England, France etc is silly and shows the posters ignorance. Unlike those countries we don't operate an aggressive foreign policy, we don't impose our will, steal lands and seek regime change to suit our political masters.. We bring peace, humanitarian assistance & stability to those desperately in need of it, as a consequence our service and experience is much sought after the world over.

We've served in all theaters of war from Lebanon, to various African missions like The Congo, Somalia (remember the movie Blackhawk Down?, it was an Irish/Pakistani contingent who rescued the US forces), Ethopia, Liberia, Somalia, Chad to the Balkan and Kosovo & Bosnia.. And the Middle East, Lebanon, Kuwait, Sinai Desert, to Persia and the Iran/Iraq war & Afghanistan to as far as field as East Timor.

We've also sent our non-combatant units to natural natural disaster's such as earth quakes, famine and droughts around the world.

And this Christmas Day around the country army barracks will open their gates and dining facilities to the poor and homeless.

The barracks where I serve will host 125 poor and homeless people on Christmas Day, and every soldier serving them on that day is an unpaid volunteer.

Remember that when you tuck into your turkey & ham

arybvtcw0eolkf · 24-12-2019 01:05AM

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

What type of person does it attract? What type.of person do you think I am?

Can I answer that?.. Go on, pick me... Pleeeease :pac:

SafeSurfer · 24-12-2019 01:09AM

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Just to address these two points.

Yeah from the outside looking at it, its a big scandal, many years ago. But why did it happen? Nobody seems to want to recognise the issue which preceeded the claims.

Back in the day, troops were not issued with hearing protection despite calling for it for a long long time. If you have ever fired a weapon, you know how loud it is...it is a mini explosion right next to your ear like. Now imagine a bog standard day at the range firing about 100+ bullets per person, it takes quite a toll on the hearing over the years.

The issue was, they were not provided with the required essential protection. What lads did was buy their own hearing protection to stop damage to their hearing. They were then ordered to remove their own hearing protection because it was not officially issued kit. Hence, denying lads protecting their ears.

Thousands of troops had negatively effected hearing because of it. It was negligience on behalf of the State, simple as that.

Were there some chancers coming up to retirement throwing a claim in? Yes there were but the vast vast majority of claimants had genuine reduction in their ability to hear so were quite right to claim for loss of hearing.

What type of person does it attract? What type.of person do you think I am?

The army deafness scandal was a bandwagon in which the vast majority of claimants had no more hearing loss than would be expected of someone of their age. Hating loss and Tinnitus are also notoriously difficult to prove.

The liability issue arose not because war protection was not provided but because their was no formal record kept of it having been ordered to be used.

The Irish army were a laughing stock among defence forces around the world arising from these claims.

You claim the vast, vast majority of claimants were genuine. I don’t think anybody outside the Irish army believes that.

The Irish army band were not awarded an average of 45k punts for hearing loss on the firing range or in combat but for playing their instruments. It was a joke and the army rightly, in my opinion, lost a lot of respect because of it. If they were politicians they would have been universally ridiculed.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 24-12-2019 01:18AM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The army deafness scandal was a bandwagon in which the vast majority of claimants had no more hearing loss than would be expected of someone of their age. Hating loss and Tinnitus are also notoriously difficult to prove. .

Actually hearing loss due to gunfire and shooting weapons falls within a frequency range unique to that experience and had nothing to do with age.

I served during that time, we were all sent for hearing tests regardless whether you had a claimed hearing loss or not.

Other armies followed suit and found that their personnel were suffering hearing damage as a result of their service.

Oh (I should have quoted you), records on hearing protection.. None were kept because hearing protection wasn't part of your ordnance issue as it is now, simple as that [ordnance issue includes items such as backpacks, respirators, helmets etc, they're all itemized issue].

Two people have made fools of themselves in this thread so far, don't be a turd

(army humor, couldn't resist).

uck51js9zml2yt · 24-12-2019 01:20AM

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Howaya Mak, no thankfully got back in Nov. I think 4 Christmas Day's overseas is enough.

Hope all is well man. See you in the new year.

Merry Jesus everyone.

Thought you guys couldn't get enough of running up and down outside the fence. My brother misses it..along with the escorts to and from the airport

uck51js9zml2yt · 24-12-2019 01:23AM

Darwin Tinkling Wall-to-wall wrote: »

Two people have made fools of themselves in this thread so far, don't be a turd (army humor, couldn't resist).

Didn't think soldiers had a sense of humour

too much time playing with the big guns Mak.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 24-12-2019 01:24AM

Harley Icy Fashion wrote: »

Didn't think soldiers had a sense of humour too much time playing with the big guns Mak.

I've only got a little gun

SafeSurfer · 24-12-2019 01:25AM

Darwin Tinkling Wall-to-wall wrote: »

Actually hearing loss due to gunfire and shooting weapons falls within a frequency range unique to that experience and had nothing to do with age.

I served during that time, we were all sent for hearing tests regardless whether you had a claimed hearing loss or not.

Other armies followed suit and found that their personnel were suffering hearing damage as a result of their service.

Oh (I should have quoted you), records on hearing protection.. None were kept because hearing protection wasn't part of your ordnance issue as it is now, simple as that [ordnance issue includes items such as backpacks, respirators, helmets etc, they're all itemized issue].

Two people have made fools of themselves in this thread so far, don't be a turd (army humor, couldn't resist).

I know it’s a sore point and a cause of embarrassment among the defence forces. I have no problem if you think I am making a fool of myself by stating that the Army Deafness Scandal made the Irish army a laughing stock both nationally and internationally.

uck51js9zml2yt · 24-12-2019 01:29AM

Darwin Tinkling Wall-to-wall wrote: »

I've only got a little gun

Ah, so sense of humour not pounded out of you yet.:)

A few more sessions in the Glen should sort you out!

Signore Fancy Pants · 24-12-2019 01:35AM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The army deafness scandal was a bandwagon in which the vast majority of claimants had no more hearing loss than would be expected of someone of their age

Is that your opinion or have you seen that officially documented? Thats interesting. Surely those personnel did not win their case then?

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The liability issue arose not because war protection was not provided but because their was no formal record kept of it having been ordered to be used

Sounds like a weak technicality. Also, you cant be ordered to use what you do not have.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The Irish army were a laughing stock among defence forces around the world arising from these claims.

You claim the vast, vast majority of claimants were genuine. I don’t think anybody outside the Irish army believes that.

The Irish army band were not awarded an average of 45k punts for hearing loss on the firing range or in combat but for playing their instruments. It was a joke and the army rightly, in my opinion, lost a lot of respect because of it. If they were politicians they would have been universally ridiculed.

Well I have no info on the army band, never heard about them claiming. Are they not civilians in uniform? I have no idea but that does sound stupendously ridiculous. Cant believe they successfully claimed and won.

The claims were before my time, so you must know more than I do on the subject. Anecdotally, from lads of that vintage maintain that most claimants they knew were genuinely effected. Although I obviously cant personally vouch for it.

We get a full medical each year, including hearing tests. That would have been part of supporting evidence I presume. A downgrade in your medical hampers your career and may get you medically discharged. Im sure this factored into it too.

I was shooting with illfitting ear protection one day which left me with ringing in my left ear for a few months. That was only 1 day on the range....no I have no claim in

.

You also have not answered what type of person you think I am. At least be man enough to back up your (shocking) comment.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 24-12-2019 01:37AM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I know it’s a sore point and a cause of embarrassment among the defence forces. I have no problem if you think I am making a fool of myself by stating that the Army Deafness Scandal made the Irish army a laughing stock both nationally and internationally.

I think you are [making a fool of yourself], and I won't be losing too much sleep over it.. Whatever you say henceforth is falling on deaf ears

OP, JF & now this.. Its like taking candy from a baby, goodnight and Merry Christmas.. Sleep tight.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 24-12-2019 01:46AM

Sh*t, just realized the time/date.

I swore I'd be off social media for Christmas eve & Christmas day.

I hope [don't hope] no one took offence at any rebuttal I posted.

Now the sincere part, I wish you and yours all a very merry Christmas & health and prosperity in 2020.. I'm logging out, but I do wish you all the very best.

Bottoms up, Slainte

Irish Army - Lebanon

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