Rail infrastructure in a potential United Ireland

strassenwo!f · 15-12-2019 1:28am #1

The recent election in Britain has ensured that Brexit will now happen, and the fact that there are now more Nationalist/Republican MPs in the North than Unionist ones is notable. Several commentators I have read over the last couple of days have written either that a United Ireland is now an inevitability in the next two-three decades or that the election result, and the likely form of Brexit which will result from that, will lead to an even closer alignment of NI and the Republic, and probably a United Ireland at some later stage.

If or when a United Ireland happens, integration of the two original countries will be key to the success of the new one, and sensible integration of infrastructure will be vital. Rail infrastructure will hopefully be one aspect of this process of integration.

I am basing the following suggestion on two assumptions: (i) that rail travel will represent an efficient and green method of travelling between major nodes, and broadly will not be overtaken in efficiency by autonomous cars or other vehicles; and (ii) that the creation of the new country, and the importance of integration, will lead to a large pay-off from the UK and general goodwill in terms of financing from countries like the US.

Crayons out, I envisage construction of a rail line between Derry (Londonderry) and Cork, via perhaps Omagh, Enniskillen, Longford, Athlone, Birr and Templemore (and then Thurles, Limerick Junction, Mallow on the current Cork-Dublin line). And also a (Belfast) Portadown-Armagh-Monaghan-Cavan-Longford line.

With a Derry - Cork trunk line as the main spine of the system, and a line to/from Belfast feeding into it at (say) Longford, the possibilities for direct Belfast - Cork, Belfast - Limerick, Belfast - Galway or Belfast - Waterford services, and potential for one-change connections with Dublin - Galway, Dublin - Westport and Dublin - Sligo services (At Athlone or Longford) would be considerable.

You would probably have to move some current stations away from their current location, for example the new Athlone station* would probably have to be a bit away from the town, and there would certainly need to be some tunnelling somewhere. And how would you have a southbound station in Derry? Definitely problems abound.

(*I think an out-of-town location here would be necessary, but could be a very fine place to enable direct services heading east or west of the proposed Derry-Cork trunk line or to facilitate connection with the East-West Dublin-Galway line).

A good connection at Longford would also open up possibilites for one-change rail services between Belfast and Sligo. At Athlone, possibilities for one-change services to Westport, Castlebar and so on.

Et cetera.

(There isn't any obvious reason I can see why you would, under this arrangement, tinker with the direct coastal line between Belfast and Dublin, or the line between Belfast and Derry, or the current lines emanating from Dublin (apart from improving them, if possible)).

I can't see that there would be huge demand for direct Cork-Derry services along such a route, perhaps 3-4 trains per day. It would be as a major corridor along the country, with city-city services feeding in and out, and connecting with others, that it would fulfil its purpose of integrating the new country.

Zebra3 · 15-12-2019 10:42am

Priority would be top class hourly minimum services between Dublin and Belfast.

GerardKeating · 15-12-2019 10:49am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

(There isn't any obvious reason I can see why you would, under this arrangement, tinker with the direct coastal line between Belfast and Dublin, or the line between Belfast and Derry, or the current lines emanating from Dublin (apart from improving them, if possible)).

But remember, the current rail network, and all the lines emanating from Dublin where designed and built when there was a united ireland, there was no major rail line constructed since independance, so why would a reunited ireland impact on the rail network.

But an intriguing question, which is more likley

United Ireland
New Railway line

Lord Fairlord · 15-12-2019 8:04pm

As I said on another thread, I'd love a direct Dublin to Derry line passing near/through Navan, Clones, Omagh with maybe a spur to Letterkenny.

16-12-2019 11:54am

There's no chance of a United Ireland within our lifetimes so it's a moot point

ncounties · 16-12-2019 2:38pm

But an intriguing question, which is more likley
United Ireland
New Railway line

United Ireland.

whisky_galore · 16-12-2019 5:38pm

FG and Unionists were always anti rail. Peas in a pod.

Don't get your hopes up.

Geuze · 16-12-2019 10:44pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Priority would be top class hourly minimum services between Dublin and Belfast.

Yes, 200kph, electrified, hourly, all day.

Also services from Dublin-Derry.

murphaph · 17-12-2019 8:24am

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, 200kph, electrified, hourly, all day.

Also services from Dublin-Derry.

Dublin to Derry by rail would be quite the long journey. If there is a UI the A5/N2 road will be a much higher priority than enhanced rail services.

I would imagine the already mentioned Dublin-Belfast corridor would actually see improvement to a high speed service. Belfast and Dublin aren't that far apart and the greater Belfast economy will have to be high on the agenda if there is a UI. If greater Belfast can't be made into a net contributor to the economy then a UI would be in serious trouble.

Drifter50 · 17-12-2019 8:43am

First of all a united Ireland will not happen in this or the next generation

There has never been sufficient investment in Rail and there are so many issues you must solve first. Double tracking existing lines will double capacity which will give you far more bang for your buck

Electrify existing well used lines

You can go and on before you consider new lines

Remember this country has a population only the size of Greater Manchester, you can`t justify all that engineering

Zebra3 · 17-12-2019 11:15am

Drifter50 wrote: »

First of all a united Ireland will not happen in this or the next generation

There has never been sufficient investment in Rail and there are so many issues you must solve first. Double tracking existing lines will double capacity which will give you far more bang for your buck

Electrify existing well used lines

You can go and on before you consider new lines

Remember this country has a population only the size of Greater Manchester, you can`t justify all that engineering

A UI is highly likely within the next twenty years or so.

It's all about demographics.

17-12-2019 12:17pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

A UI is highly likely within the next twenty years or so.

It's all about demographics.

Lol

It about reality

nordydan · 17-12-2019 2:05pm

Loving the United Ireland talk from the freestaters

Still thinks its more likely than pre Brexit but not likely (uder 50%) in the next 15 years.

One quick win would be a straight track from Newry to north of Lisburn with maybe a park and ride somewhere near Dromore. This would speed up the Belfast line as the diversion via Portadown puts half an hour on the journey. Something like the attacted

NIMAN · 17-12-2019 2:07pm

The NW is ignored in Northern Ireland.

The NW is ignored in RoI.

In the case of a UI I wouldn't bet on the NW being served with any better infrastructure.

whisky_galore · 17-12-2019 2:08pm

NIMAN wrote: »

The NW is ignored in Northern Ireland.

The NW is ignored in RoI.

In the case of a UI I wouldn't bet on the NW being served with any better infrastructure.

This is very true.

Fritzbox · 17-12-2019 2:24pm

Drifter50 wrote: »

First of all a united Ireland will not happen in this or the next generation

There has never been sufficient investment in Rail and there are so many issues you must solve first. Double tracking existing lines will double capacity which will give you far more bang for your buck

Electrify existing well used lines

You can go and on before you consider new lines

Remember this country has a population only the size of Greater Manchester, you can`t justify all that engineering

The island of Ireland has well over twice the population of Greater Manchester.

Whether we have a united Ireland or not in the near future is a red herring - as both parts of Ireland were in the EU it would have been quite easy to consider the island as a unitary whole when it came to providing the necessary transport infrastructure - in parallel with the island fast being considered a single economy. This process of creating a "one-island" economy had already begun years ago.

And then Brexit came along...

Amirani · 17-12-2019 3:40pm

Fritzbox wrote: »

The island of Ireland has well over twice the population of Greater Manchester.

This.

I hate how many people use that moronically incorrect population factoid. It seems to come up in any infrastructure discussion about Ireland. No idea where it started out, it's not even close like; Greater Manchester population is comfortably under 3 million.

whisky_galore · 17-12-2019 3:47pm

Amirani wrote: »

This.

I hate how many people use that moronically incorrect population factoid. It seems to come up in any infrastructure discussion about Ireland. No idea where it started out.

It's an excuse for a do nothing scenario in public transport. Or at a push..."more roads needed".

Another old chestnut continually trotted out is the "population density", esp in Irish cities already strangled with private car traffic.

MrAbyss · 17-12-2019 6:07pm

Drifter50 wrote: »

Remember this country has a population only the size of Greater Manchester

I love the way this one gets wheeled out constantly. Firstly, the Greater Manchester land area is HUGE and not just Manchester city itself which is smaller than Dublin city in size and population. Dublin is a European capital and in terms of influence/economy one of the top 30 cities in the world. Manchester is a provincial backwater that you only know about because of football and bands.

Secondly, in a united Ireland the population would be around twice that of Greater Manchester and all the loads of ****hole cities and big towns in it.

Thirdly, go away with that tired old irrelevant claptrap.

MrAbyss · 17-12-2019 6:09pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

It's an excuse for a do nothing scenario in public transport. Or at a push..."more roads needed".

Another old chestnut continually trotted out is the "population density", esp in Irish cities already strangled with private car traffic.

"or buses are enough..."

cgcsb · 19-12-2019 3:38pm

The Northwest of England, encompassing greater Manchester, greater Liverpool and a number of smaller cities has about the same population as Ireland. But of course the northwest of England is an economic, political and social backwater compared to the island of Ireland. Dublin City has more office space than all of England outside of greater London just to give you an idea.

cgcsb · 19-12-2019 3:45pm

Realign the lisburn to Newry railway closer to the A1. High speed electric trains should connect Cork and Belfast via Dublin airport and Heuston every 20 mins at least.

Motorway between Derry and Belfast and road improvements between Dublin and Derry. Trains from Derry to Belfast should be half hourly, and only take an hour that would connect Dublin to Derry in 2 hours which is reasonable. The Dublin Cork Belfast and Limerick shoukd have electric commuter rail networks.

All the proposed Dublin projects should be done. Luas should be introduced to Cork and Belfast and bus connects should be brought to all cities. The cities should have car bans in central areas. More metro lines should be planned in Dublin and eventually in Cork and Belfast.

The M20 should be completed and then we can probably wrap up thoughts of new motorways.

Pete_Cavan · 19-12-2019 10:24pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Realign the lisburn to Newry railway closer to the A1. High speed electric trains should connect Cork and Belfast via Dublin airport and Heuston every 20 mins at least.

Ah come on now. Neither the demand nor train paths exist for this and won't any time soon.

21-12-2019 2:53am

Build a railway line from Derry to Sligo (not sure of the best route yet), touching the coast at Bundoran. This would reduce the isolation of Donegal and the NW and re-integrate a part of Derry's natural hinterland. If at that stage the cites of the west coast have been linked then the Derry line would allow travel from Derry to Cork entirely along the western seaboard just as the east coast has a train line from Wexford to Belfast.

ncounties · 21-12-2019 2:04pm

Abraham Witty Railroad wrote: »

Build a railway line from Derry to Sligo (not sure of the best route yet), touching the coast at Bundoran. This would reduce the isolation of Donegal and the NW and re-integrate a part of Derry's natural hinterland. If at that stage the cites of the west coast have been linked then the Derry line would allow travel from Derry to Cork entirely along the western seaboard just as the east coast has a train line from Wexford to Belfast.

I'm all for rail investment, but you can not compare the western seaboard with the eastern, and I say this as someone from Derry.

Definitely a rail line should be built connecting Derry, Letterkenny, Omagh and Armagh with Dublin (and Belfast), but there is absolutely no need for a direct rail line between Derry and Sligo, or onwards to Galway. At present, there are only four Bus Eireann services between Derry and Galway per day (one way). If there was demand for this route, there would be a lot more coach services, and with both public and private operators running the route. But theres not, and so there is definitely no need for a rail line.

cgcsb · 21-12-2019 5:25pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Ah come on now. Neither the demand nor train paths exist for this and won't any time soon.

Why wouldn't there be train paths? It would be a new alignment between Drogheda and Heuston close to the M1 and on the 4 track section from Heuston outward.

Currently intercity trains are wedged all tmof the time the capacity provided should be greater than what's needed at this minute to allow for growth and to attract modal shift.

Carawaystick · 29-12-2019 2:40am

NIMAN wrote: »

The NW is ignored in Northern Ireland.

The NW is ignored in RoI.

In the case of a UI I wouldn't bet on the NW being served with any better infrastructure.

The NW has a hugely distributed population, which is badly served by rail.
The NW has loads of mountains, which make rail very expensive to implement.

the_syco · 29-12-2019 2:56am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Priority would be top class hourly minimum services between Dublin and Belfast.

Why? Also, will it stop at every station along the way?

Zebra3 · 29-12-2019 3:27pm

the_syco wrote: »

Why? Also, will it stop at every station along the way?

To answer the first question, to help develop a vibrant economic corridor as well as all the usual environmental and quality of life stuff.

Secondly, why would it? The current service doesn't.

D.L.R. · 29-12-2019 6:13pm

A Belfast-Dublin-Cork HS rail line is an obvious priority. Combination of upgrades and new line, via Dublin Airport.

Trickiest part is how to serve Dublin city, where some serious tunneling seems necessary. Spencer Dock could work, if its not built over by the time this fantasy comes into view..

Markcheese · 29-12-2019 7:11pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

A Belfast-Dublin-Cork HS rail line is an obvious priority. Combination of upgrades and new line, via Dublin Airport.

Trickiest part is how to serve Dublin city, where some serious tunneling seems necessary. Spencer Dock could work, if its not built over by the time this fantasy comes into view..

Cork - limerick junction ,an m50 station ,heuston ,under the Phoenix park ,tunnel to Dublin airport ,on up to Belfast ..electrified the whole way
Would there be scope for 2 or 3 trains an hour ? Stick pendalinos on it ,150 mph ? 3 or 4 track the entire thing ..

Mearings · 06-01-2020 7:53pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

FG and Unionists were always anti rail. Peas in a pod.

Don't get your hopes up.

Todd Andrews was neither a member of Fine Gael or a Unionist.

ncounties · 20-01-2020 12:45pm

Was looking at train times between Stockholm and Malmo today. A distance of approx. 613km is covered in 4.5 hours (average speed of 136kph). These trains were bought in 1990, and have a top speed of 200km.

They are now renovating them at a cost of €331million, to extend their life by an additional 20-25 years. They state that this means they avoid spending three times as much ordering new trains. Based on this, the trainsets will service their high speed lines for 50-55 years.

Sweden's X2000 Pendelino Renovations

Meanwhile here in Ireland, we suffer on with a service between the two largest cities that has an average "advertised" speed of 73kph. Jesus wept. The above example from Sweden shows the benefit and longevity of any investment we make in rail travel, along with countless environmental benefits. We need high moderate speed rail between all our cities on this island.

Markcheese · 20-01-2020 8:42pm

I assume that pendalinos are electric .so the cork / Dublin line would have to be electrified ... Each stop would add maybe 10 mins to the journey ,
Level crossings would need to be gotten rid of too,

What sort of realistic time do think could be achieved cork -dublin..

4068ac1elhodqr · 20-01-2020 9:09pm

If HSRail is anything like Engerlands £100bn++ nightmare project (with speeds now set to be dialed down), then wait and do nothing for 10yrs.

In the meantime, do various feasability studies on Hyperloop (with much smaller footprint, and simply unbeatable speeds).
Once both India & Dubai get it built and ironed out (<2030), simply replicate the project and headhunt their engineers.

The logical route would be Bel - North Dub/Airport (800k catchment area, even before reaching Dublin proper).
Then Central/SW Dub direct to Limerick for the next 1m+ .
Finally Lim to both Gal & Cork.

I.e. Follow the populaiton density, the NW will simply have to wait or get road upgrades.

ncounties · 20-01-2020 9:15pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I assume that pendalinos are electric .so the cork / Dublin line would have to be electrified ... Each stop would add maybe 10 mins to the journey ,
Level crossings would need to be gotten rid of too,

What sort of realistic time do think could be achieved cork -dublin..

As this thread is about infrastructure in a United Ireland, I was referring to the Belfast - Dublin Line. Of course, if we wanted Ten-T funding, it would make sense to consider it as one line from Belfast to Cork via Dublin.

Cork's current advertised average speed is 108kph, with four intermediate stops, taking just under 2.5 hours. That is 67.5% of the maximum speed currently in place on the line, 160kph, though that speed isn't available on the whole line.

If we were to electrify the Cork line, and implement all necessary improvements to get the operational speed up to 200kph along it's entire length, and applied the percentage realisation per above, we would see an average speed of 135kph. This is almost exactly the same as the Swedish service (136kph), and would mean a journey time of just under two hours.

However, it reality I think we could shave off another 5-10mins, as acceleration and deceleration times would be much more rapid due to the electric set, and we would have 200kph for the length of the line, and not the hodge podge of 160kph and lower limits we currently have, and pendilinos would be able to maintain full speed in bends.

If we apply the same percentage realisation against the Belfast line, journey times between the Capital and Belfast could be as quick as one hour 20 minutes.

Markcheese · 20-01-2020 10:21pm

If I was doing a cork / Dublin / Belfast train it'd have to serve Dublin airport too.... And if there's ever a metro West / m50 orbital that too...all of which ups the number of stops ...

Would it still end up one every hour? Or twice an hour ,and would that interrupt local traffic? ( The closer you get to Dublin the more commuter traffic there'd be )
It'd be an expensive service to set up and run .... For a couple of trains an hour ... ( Still wouldn't be anything like hs2 in cost though )

whisky_galore · 20-01-2020 10:25pm

Mearings wrote: »

Todd Andrews was neither a member of Fine Gael or a Unionist.

*slow clap*

Todd is dead. FG and Unionism are still with us.

ncounties · 20-01-2020 10:36pm

Markcheese wrote: »

If I was doing a cork / Dublin / Belfast train it'd have to serve Dublin airport too.... And if there's ever a metro West / m50 orbital that too...all of which ups the number of stops ...

Would it still end up one every hour? Or twice an hour ,and would that interrupt local traffic? ( The closer you get to Dublin the more commuter traffic there'd be )
It'd be an expensive service to set up and run .... For a couple of trains an hour ... ( Still wouldn't be anything like hs2 in cost though )

Fair enough regarding Dublin Airport, but an intercity service is just that, an intercity service, so to stop for every bit of urban infrastructure would be a bit much.

Anyway, if we ever get moderate speed rail it will be merely an upgrade of our current lines. The best we can hope for a Dublin Airport link is MetroNorthLink being extended to Donabate for connection with Northern Line services.

cgcsb · 21-01-2020 2:38pm

Dublin airport is Ireland's airport though. 90% of Ireland's flights are to or from Dublin. As an island it's our gateway to the world. It certainly does justify an inter city station more than Limerick does.

ncounties · 21-01-2020 2:50pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Dublin airport is Ireland's airport though. 90% of Ireland's flights are to or from Dublin. As an island it's our gateway to the world. It certainly does justify an inter city station more than Limerick does.

I definitely agree, and I personally would love to see high speed rail through services from Belfast to Cork, calling at Dublin Airport and Dublin City Centre but I'm just saying that I am resigned to the fact that we'd be pushing it just asking for a moderate upgrade to current lines, and an extension of MetroLink to Donatabate.

ncounties · 04-03-2020 7:00pm

I know, I know, I am always with the crayons, but, I got my crayons out again. In the New Decade, New Deal Agreement, talk of a Belfast to Cork flight was muted.

Why not just upgrade the existing link between the Northern Line and Navan, and extend it to Portlaoise. You could then offer rail services to Cork, Galway and Limerick?

loyatemu · 06-03-2020 1:34pm

ncounties wrote: »

I know, I know, I am always with the crayons, but, I got my crayons out again. In the New Decade, New Deal Agreement, talk of a Belfast to Cork flight was muted.

Why not just upgrade the existing link between the Northern Line and Navan, and extend it to Portlaoise. You could then offer rail services to Cork, Galway and Limerick?

you can already run a Belfast-Cork service via Dublin. Building a cross-country line like that would be massive cost for a very niche service. Better to upgrade the Northern Line.

Carawaystick · 12-03-2020 12:02am

ncounties wrote: »

I definitely agree, and I personally would love to see high speed rail through services from Belfast to Cork, calling at Dublin Airport and Dublin City Centre but I'm just saying that I am resigned to the fact that we'd be pushing it just asking for a moderate upgrade to current lines, and an extension of MetroLink to Donatabate.

The linespeed around Jerretspass is about 25mph...

Carawaystick · 12-03-2020 12:24am

ncounties wrote: »

As this thread is about infrastructure in a United Ireland, I was referring to the Belfast - Dublin Line. Of course, if we wanted Ten-T funding, it would make sense to consider it as one line from Belfast to Cork via Dublin.

yep, makes sense.

ncounties wrote: »

Cork's current advertised average speed is 108kph, with four intermediate stops, taking just under 2.5 hours. That is 67.5% of the maximum speed currently in place on the line, 160kph, though that speed isn't available on the whole line.

If we were to electrify the Cork line, and implement all necessary improvements to get the operational speed up to 200kph along it's entire length, and applied the percentage realisation per above, we would see an average speed of 135kph. This is almost exactly the same as the Swedish service (136kph), and would mean a journey time of just under two hours.

However, it reality I think we could shave off another 5-10mins, as acceleration and deceleration times would be much more rapid due to the electric set, and we would have 200kph for the length of the line, and not the hodge podge of 160kph and lower limits we currently have, and pendilinos would be able to maintain full speed in bends.

What's the top speed the 201 class locos can go at? if the line speed was 250kmh say?

What's the time saving if the whole Dub Cork line was 160?
200?

What's the time saving electrifying the line? the bang for buck tails off fairly sharply

ncounties wrote: »

If we apply the same percentage realisation against the Belfast line, journey times between the Capital and Belfast could be as quick as one hour 20 minutes.

end of the road · 12-03-2020 2:12am

i think i heard before that the 201 is capable of 105 to 110 mph but is limited to 100 mph.

Carawaystick · 17-03-2020 11:19pm

ncounties wrote: »

Fair enough regarding Dublin Airport, but an intercity service is just that, an intercity service, so to stop for every bit of urban infrastructure would be a bit much.

Would Lisburn and Newry still be cities in an UI?

ncounties · 17-03-2020 11:51pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Would Lisburn and Newry still be cities in an UI?

What's your point?

Last Stop · 18-03-2020 9:25pm

ncounties wrote: »

Fair enough regarding Dublin Airport, but an intercity service is just that, an intercity service, so to stop for every bit of urban infrastructure would be a bit much.

Anyway, if we ever get moderate speed rail it will be merely an upgrade of our current lines. The best we can hope for a Dublin Airport link is MetroNorthLink being extended to Donabate for connection with Northern Line services.

Given the demand for Dublin Airport, it really is a no brained to stop there.

A spur from Clongriffin to the airport wouldn’t be the end of then world. Even doing 100kmph it would take around 10 minutes which in the overall scheme of things is nothing. Aren’t Manchester Airport and Stanstead on spur lines?

From there via a quad tracked northern line and then DART underground would be the best use of resources.

Rail infrastructure in a potential United Ireland

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