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Query about red light fines

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  • 06-12-2019 5:04pm
    #1
    St1mpMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭


    I went through a red-light at a quiet left-turn junction around 11.30pm.

    Yes I know I'm worse than Hitler, but I had made sure no traffic/pedestrians were approaching as otherwise I wouldn't have done it, and made sure I had observed no traffic would be affected.

    Anyway, I was nabbed by a Garda and given two fines:

    "Cycling Past a Red Light" and "Riding PedalCycle without Reasonable Consideration"


    The first I agree with, but when I contested the second one the response was "you went through a red light so no consideration for others".

    Is it a given that you will always get 2 fines? Why not just have one fine for €80??


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    #2
    1hnr79jr65
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭1hnr79jr65


    You committed 2 offences in the maneuver of cycling through a red light.

    1. "Cycling past a red light" - first offence, pretty obvious and you accept this one.
    2. "Riding pedal cycle without reasonable consideration" - second offence, this is charged due to nature of your action and effect it could have on another road user, pedestrian or yourself. Regardless if there was someone there to affect of not, this could be applied on the basis of you or another could have had an accident by your careless action, potentially resulting in emergency services/clean up/road safety crew being deployed.

    On the second offence for a motorist would generally be applied where a red light is broken, "Running red light" & "failure to drive with due care and attention" or similar.

    Also in the case of the charges if you failed to pay for 1 or both of the fines a warrant could be issued for you to appear in court, increased fines or if you wanted to dispute 1 or both fines.


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    #3
    St1mpMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭St1mpMeister


    So it's a given that the latter fine will always be given when the first is given?

    What you seem to suggest is that the first fine is not sufficient enough on its own as the latter offence will implicitly be committed.

    Are most motoring fines doubled-up like this as well?


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    #4
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,824 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Surely the second fine is implicit in the first? Sounds like they're claiming one offence is actually two offences.


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    #5
    sbs2010
    Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭sbs2010


    In this case I think you'd have a chance of successfully contesting the second charge.

    The first is a black and white issue but you did take care and consideration by noting there was no one around.

    Surely the second one is for those who fly through without taking any care at all.


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    #6
    Eamonnator
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    I cannot for the life of me understand, why two tickets were issued for the same offence.
    In my own experience, the closest to this was, back in the day, if we caught a driver, from outside this jurisdiction, exceeding the speed limit by a great margin, we would arrest him for dangerous driving (there is no power of arrest for speeding) and charge him with dangerous driving AND exceeding the speed limit.
    Driver would then be released on money bail to appear at next sitting of local court. If the driver appeared for court, it would then be up to the judge which offence to convict on. I have never seen a judge convicting on both counts. If there was no other offence, the judge would invariably convict on the speeding charge. If the driver failed to appear, the judge would usually convict in his absence and fine the driver the bail amount, payable forthwith.
    It appears to me, that you are being punished twice for one offence.


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    #7
    BDI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭BDI


    Either the guards should have more to be doing or you pissed him off.

    Surely there is more to this story, I’d just cycle off if it was me but the guards never stopped me on my bike.


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    #8
    Guffy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,045 ✭✭✭Guffy


    How careful could you have been if you didn't see the garda?


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    #9
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,949 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Seemed to be quite a few jobsworths around yesterday evening.

    Got caught at a light yesterday was having sequence issues. As in myself and a few others stopped at it, waited through 4-5 full cycles and no green for us. Guard standing there just stared us out of it the whole time as if daring us to proceed through. Eventually we had to get off our bikes and walk the bikes around the light on the footpath to get past with him throwing us a filthy look. The non-asshole thing to do would be to help wave us through when there were gaps in the traffic when it became clear there was a problem with the lights.


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    #10
    Eamonnator
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    It was always my understanding, that riding a pedal cycle without reasonable consideration was to cover any offences not specifically covered by the fines on the spot.


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    #11
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Stark wrote: »
    Seemed to be quite a few jobsworths around yesterday evening.

    Operation Free-Flow started on Monday involving 150 new Garda recruits straight out of Templemore. The exact same thing was run over the Christmas period last year, expect anything but free flowing traffic.


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    #12
    St1mpMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭St1mpMeister


    Guffy wrote: »
    How careful could you have been if you didn't see the garda?

    Was waiting for this one ;)

    I saw two lanes of cars with bright lights. They were stopped at red too. One was white, but the lights obscured me seeing the markings.

    Anyway back on point... Yes the guard seemed to have a chip on his shoulder and even said "...and you're not even wearing a helmet" (I was on a Dublin Bike)

    To be honest I'm not bothered going to court. I attempted to get it cancelled but it's up to the guard to sign off on it and he declined it.

    My time is worth more than arguing over €40, but the double charge definitely left a sour taste in my mouth.


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    #13
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,256 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    I am sorry to say this OP but it's nice to see a fine given for passing a red light. Unfortunately, a cyclist passing one is deemed the same as a motor vehicle (in law) but perhaps not outcome (endangering others).

    I would agree that two offences for the same act is excessive. Many motorists just get a fine and points for running a red. It only gets elevated up to without due care and attention if/where there are other factors.

    I don't think they can prosecute that. They have to prove you acted without consideration for others. I suppose the could say they deemed it so but is that enough? Given AGS are all about the weight of evidence, the same holds for them. In court. It woukd get down to your word against theirs, and they are deemed to be impartial, just recounting the facts.

    You could contact the station and try and get the second one voided. Edit: See you tried that. Seems a bit stubborn! Two convictions for the same act? Come on!


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    #14
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,166 ✭✭✭plodder


    St1mpMeister wrote: »
    I went through a red-light at a quiet left-turn junction around 11.30pm.

    Yes I know I'm worse than Hitler, but I had made sure no traffic/pedestrians were approaching as otherwise I wouldn't have done it, and made sure I had observed no traffic would be affected.

    Anyway, I was nabbed by a Garda and given two fines:

    "Cycling Past a Red Light" and "Riding PedalCycle without Reasonable Consideration"


    The first I agree with, but when I contested the second one the response was "you went through a red light so no consideration for others".

    Is it a given that you will always get 2 fines? Why not just have one fine for €80??
    Assuming you didn't piss him off with your reaction, I can imagine this happening because enforcement is so patchy and inconsistent that they feel they have to maximise the return for the little effort that is put in. It's sad really.


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    #15
    NSAman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,395 ✭✭✭NSAman


    About time some of these cyclists got fined. Pay up and just accept you are a bad road user!


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    #16
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,256 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    NSAman wrote: »
    About time some of these cyclists got fined. Pay up and just accept you are a bad road user!

    Its not about 'these cyclists' aka cyclist bashing. This is a cycling forum so it would be good if you did not use such language.

    For the record, all categories of road users are frequently ignoring red lights. The poster actually said they accept the fine for passing the red.


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    #17
    NSAman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,395 ✭✭✭NSAman


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    Its not about 'these cyclists' aka cyclist bashing. This is a cycling forum so it would be good if you did not use such language.

    For the record, all categories of road users are frequently ignoring red lights. The poster actually said they accept the fine for passing the red.

    So I should hope so.

    Cannot abide those who break red lights in any mode of transport. Cycling is dangerous enough without cyclists breaking lights.


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    #18
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    Maybe the garda saw something you didn't see?

    Did you see him?


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    #19
    St1mpMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭St1mpMeister


    plodder wrote: »
    Assuming you didn't piss him off with your reaction

    I think that's what gets me, is that they can decide to up the ante and double-charge if they feel so inclined, and the only person you can appeal to is the garda himself (you can't even appeal to the super intendent apparently).

    It's either try to convince the garda to change his mind, or risk it in court.

    I would have assumed that they would keep personal feelings out when making a determination of the punishment and they just apply a specific fine for a specific act, not add in extra fines if they are feeling in the mood.


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    #20
    zubair
    Registered Users Posts: 2,459 ✭✭✭zubair


    If a second fine is the difference between you probably not doing it again and definitely not, then well done guard.


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    #21
    bilbot79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    Pure stupid that


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    #22
    1hnr79jr65
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭1hnr79jr65


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    Surely the second fine is implicit in the first? Sounds like they're claiming one offence is actually two offences.

    It is cause and effect. 2 separate offences out of the 1 action. First offence was breaking a traffic law, second offence would basically be self or pedestrian/motorist endangerment.

    The second offence would be based on the determination of the Garda from their perception of the illegal action taken, in effect a judgement call on potential risks.

    In all likelihood the total fines received should be just paid without contest, if they were to be disputed there is a reasonable probability that the fines could increase if challenged in court on top of solicitor fees.


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    #23
    bilbot79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    I actually think that the second charge was unfair. Yes he broke the light but the subsequent endangerment of others depends on how reckless it's done. The OP was careful so it didn't count


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    #24
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,968 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    Sour Lemonz wrote: »
    ....The second offence would be based on the determination of the Garda from their perception of the illegal action taken, in effect a judgement call on potential risks.....
    Garda discretion is usually used the opposite way, not to add to the initial offence.

    If a vehicle is parked on double yellow lines and with wheels on a footpath, the owner isn't issued with two fines. The standard practice is the proceed with the main offence.


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    #25
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    bilbot79 wrote: »
    I actually think that the second charge was unfair. Yes he broke the light but the subsequent endangerment of others depends on how reckless it's done. The OP was careful so it didn't count
    Breaking the law always counts.

    The OP posted that he looked and saw no traffic or pedestrians, yet susequently posted his vision was obscured by bright lights from cars at the traffic lights.

    Its not unreasonable to wonder if the Garda saw something he didn't that made him decide the second fine was warranted.


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    #26
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,968 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    AulWan wrote: »
    ... yet susequently posted his vision was obscured by bright lights from cars at the traffic lights....
    You're overthinking it. Just because he didn't realise that it was a Garda car, doesn't mean his vision was obscured. After all, he wasn't looking out for a Garda car. If I'm cycling at night and I meet a car. I can't normally tell what make and model it is as I just see the headlights. That doesn't mean I'm unaware of it.
    AulWan wrote:
    ...Its not unreasonable to wonder if the Garda saw something he didn't that warranted the second fine.
    It's not unreasonable to wonder if the Garda saw soft target? I regularly see motorists behaving illegally under the noses of Gardai but they rarely seem interested.


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    #27
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    St1mpMeister wrote: »
    I saw two lanes of cars with bright lights. They were stopped at red too. One was white, but the lights obscured me seeing the markings.

    Eh, he actually posted that his vision was obscured by the lights.

    Enough that he didn't notice a Garda car, and still went through the red light.

    But whatever.

    Suck it up and pay the fines. Next time, don't break the lights. :)


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    #28
    St1mpMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭St1mpMeister


    AulWan wrote: »
    Eh, he actually posted that his vision was obscured by the lights.

    My vision wasn't obscured by lights. I saw parked cars to the right side junction with lights. The cars weren't in front of me, they were to my right about 10m away, my vision wasn't obscured.

    Anyway back on topic, is it possible to request the Garda's account under freedom of information, or does it just remain a mystery until it goes to court?

    I'm legitimately curious what he saw was a "double offendable" act considering I see countless cars/bikes going through red lights daily without a care.

    I saw 2 Guards on bikes going through red lights about 6 months ago and even jokingly took them up on it.

    I'll keep the receipt for the payment so that WHEN (not if) it becomes legal here to turn left on red (as it is with most other developed nations) I might be able to appeal for a refund :pac:


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    #29
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,968 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    St1mpMeister wrote: »
    ...I saw 2 Guards on bikes going through red lights about 6 months ago and even jokingly took them up on it...
    Gardai are exempt from almost all traffic regulations in the course of their duties.


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    #30
    St1mpMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭St1mpMeister


    St1mpMeister wrote: »
    Anyway back on topic, is it possible to request the Garda's account under freedom of information, or does it just remain a mystery until it goes to court?

    https://www.garda.ie/en/Information-Centre/Freedom-of-Information/

    I'll give this a shot.. even if it's just to indicate what sort of action triggered alarm bells as I doubt it would arrive before the fine payment due date.


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    #31
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    St1mpMeister wrote: »
    I saw two lanes of cars with bright lights. They were stopped at red too. One was white, but the lights obscured me seeing the markings.
    St1mpMeister wrote: »
    My vision wasn't obscured by lights. I saw parked cars to the right side junction with lights. The cars weren't in front of me, they were to my right about 10m away, my vision wasn't obscured.

    The second quote is a direct contradiction of the first. I didn't make this up, you posted it.

    Stop moaning because you were caught.


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