Athy RFC may have to closedown

Squidgy Black · 06-12-2019 12:26AM

Zzippy wrote: »

This needs legislation to address widespread racketeering/cartel activities of the insurance companies. Read stats recently that despite the industry PR of massive claims, in the last 6 years the total value of claims paid out increased by 3%, while premiums increased by 75%. There is no justification for that except profiteering on a massive scale.

There's two parts of it that need to be addressed, first is the mechanisms to cap injury claim payouts (personal injury payouts in Ireland are around 4.4 times higher than the UK on average) unless there's serious injury caused by malpractice or negligence, and prosecution and financial costs for fraudulent claims. Most solicitors in Ireland will take on injury claims on a no win no fee basis due to the fact insurers generally just settle and if they lose the claimant won't be liable for paying the defendant's legal fees.

Second is as you said, clamping down on profiteering by the insurance ring. I remember the Oireachtas hearing where the insurers said well sure we think about 20% of claims could be fraudulent, around 1000, but we only actually send around 50 a year to the Garda.

thebaz · 06-12-2019 12:49AM

terrible news , but in our nanny state of today where no one is resposible for anything and accidents can't happen , hardly surprising , obviously ther are some great legal people in this country but ther are others that have helped create this situation , driven by greed (The Ambulance chasing mob) .
Ther was a case brought against a school recently where a mother tried to sue the school cause her son got slightly injured playing football at break - Accidents are a part of a healthy lfe. Thankfully the Judge saw sense, realising how important ball sports are for children in the computer world of today.
The greed of a few will create a pretty unenjoyable environment for the majority very soon, as seams to have happened in Athy. Some very esteemed people should bow ther heads in shame.

stephen_n · 06-12-2019 09:06AM

Zzippy wrote: »

This needs legislation to address widespread racketeering/cartel activities of the insurance companies. Read stats recently that despite the industry PR of massive claims, in the last 6 years the total value of claims paid out increased by 3%, while premiums increased by 75%. There is no justification for that except profiteering on a massive scale.

There’s definitely some truth in that, the insurance companies are playing it up. The levels of claims payouts are ridiculous in this country though. €75,000 grand for getting stuck in a lift for 45 minutes. They may not have risen in the last six years but they are massively out of line with the rest of Europe and have been for a long time. We are in a position where we should have competition from Europe, but those companies won’t touch this market because of the size of the payouts.

Zzippy · 06-12-2019 11:05AM

stephen_n wrote: »

There’s definitely some truth in that, the insurance companies are playing it up. The levels of claims payouts are ridiculous in this country though. €75,000 grand for getting stuck in a lift for 45 minutes. They may not have risen in the last six years but they are massively out of line with the rest of Europe and have been for a long time. We are in a position where we should have competition from Europe, but those companies won’t touch this market because of the size of the payouts.

The insurance companies were making profits 6 years ago. Claims haven't increased more than 3%. The level of individual claims may be ridiculous, but if their expenditure increased 3% and prices increased 75%, that's profiteering. Going around blaming individuals for exaggerated claims is exactly what the industry want people doing, it takes the focus off their racket entirely. If people have genuine accidents, they are entitled to claim, that's what they pay insurance for. Victim blaming is just swallowing the insurance industry PR and playing their game. And I say that as someone who had a bad injury due to a trip hazard, required surgery and extensive physio, but never claimed a penny except off my own health insurance.

Zzippy · 06-12-2019 11:21AM

From today's IT: Insurance industry’s ‘compo culture’ spin dodgiest claim of all

Acceptance of the “compo culture” narrative implies a few possibilities: that the numbers of claims is increasing due to fraudulent reports, that this has led to a spike in awards thus driving up costs, and that award levels are too high.

The first two are demonstrably untrue. Official data from the Courts Service shows that the overall number of personal injury claims filed in court in 2018 fell 1.6 per cent to 22,049. If false claimants were feasting on the system, that number would surely be rising. If insurers are settling claims they believe to be fraudulent then the industry needs an overhaul and has itself to blame.

District court filings, dealing with claims of up to €15,000, were down 2.4 per cent. Circuit court personal injury claims of up to €60,000 – encompassing the sweet spot for many motor claims – were down 4.3 per cent. The number of High Court cases was statistically flat.

Excluding medical negligence awards, which were down a total of 7.5 per cent, the amount awarded in other personal injury claims in the High Court was down by a fifth in total, or an average of 23 per cent in each case. The total burden on the insurance industry of personal injury claims has barely risen at all since 2013.

a hapless cadre of insurance industry chief executives at an Oireachtas committee meeting in July.

They each rolled up to claim, with straight faces, that about 20 per cent of all claims are “fraudulent”. Applying that metric across the industry, there must be close to 5,000 dodgy claims a year among cases that get to court alone, and perhaps eight times that number across all cases taken annually.

Yet how many suspected frauds did the industry report to guards in a six-month period until March this year? A paltry 19 in total. The “compo culture” emperor is stark blooming naked, and hasn’t worn a stitch in years.

tabby aspreme · 06-12-2019 03:39PM

The insurance issue has been sorted, a huge effort put in by club officials over the last few weeks, with help from Leinster branch and IRFU. ðŸ˜

But the underlying issues still need to be fixed

sydthebeat · 06-12-2019 03:43PM

tabby aspreme wrote: »

The insurance issue has been sorted, a huge effort put in by club officials over the last few weeks, with help from Leinster branch and IRFU. ðŸ˜

But the underlying issues still need to be fixed

have we any idea how it was fixed?

financial help to pay an extortionate premium?
another under writer found?

06-12-2019 03:43PM

tabby aspreme wrote: »

The insurance issue has been sorted, a huge effort put in by club officials over the last few weeks, with help from Leinster branch and IRFU. ðŸ˜

But the underlying issues still need to be fixed

That's great news, but is there any reason this won't just happen again next season?

tabby aspreme · 06-12-2019 04:27PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

have we any idea how it was fixed?

financial help to pay an extortionate premium?
another under writer found?

Don't know the full details, but the problem was that no company would give a quote, due to an open claim

crisco10 · 06-12-2019 05:22PM

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Don't know the full details, but the problem was that no company would give a quote, due to an open claim

IRFU self insuring or something? surely they can't afford that.

pickarooney · 07-12-2019 09:35AM

Maybe sent a couple of international props over to talk to the claimants.

Former Coach · 07-12-2019 10:08AM

pickarooney wrote: »

Maybe sent a couple of international props over to talk to the claimants.

Well I think John Hayes would just start crying when he hears the details......

clevtrev · 07-12-2019 10:26AM

Zzippy wrote: »

This needs legislation to address widespread racketeering/cartel activities of the insurance companies. Read stats recently that despite the industry PR of massive claims, in the last 6 years the total value of claims paid out increased by 3%, while premiums increased by 75%. There is no justification for that except profiteering on a massive scale.

not sure where you are getting the statistics but PIAB's own award statistics show an increase from 243m in 2013 to 315m in 2017 which is a 30% increase, not 3%. Over 50% of PIAB awards are also rejected by claimants because the PIAB award is used as a baseline for negotiation in the courts.

https://www.piab.ie/eng/about-piab/statistics/

Racketeering and profiteering accusations don't make sense when UK insurers and Lloyds underwriters are pulling out of the Irish market. Cartels can only exist when new entrants are prevented from entering the market for whatever reason. This is not the case in Ireland

Zzippy · 07-12-2019 11:14AM

clevtrev wrote: »

not sure where you are getting the statistics but PIAB's own award statistics show an increase from 243m in 2013 to 315m in 2017 which is a 30% increase, not 3%. Over 50% of PIAB awards are also rejected by claimants because the PIAB award is used as a baseline for negotiation in the courts.

https://www.piab.ie/eng/about-piab/statistics/

Racketeering and profiteering accusations don't make sense when UK insurers and Lloyds underwriters are pulling out of the Irish market. Cartels can only exist when new entrants are prevented from entering the market for whatever reason. This is not the case in Ireland

Well the EU are still investigating the Irish industry for cartel practices. We 'll see what that uncovers. Even if it is 30%, how does that justify a 75% increase in average premium, with hugely greater increases for some categories?

lawred2 · 07-12-2019 11:20AM

clevtrev wrote: »

not sure where you are getting the statistics but PIAB's own award statistics show an increase from 243m in 2013 to 315m in 2017 which is a 30% increase, not 3%. Over 50% of PIAB awards are also rejected by claimants because the PIAB award is used as a baseline for negotiation in the courts.

https://www.piab.ie/eng/about-piab/statistics/

Racketeering and profiteering accusations don't make sense when UK insurers and Lloyds underwriters are pulling out of the Irish market. Cartels can only exist when new entrants are prevented from entering the market for whatever reason. This is not the case in Ireland

So because an existing player is leaving a small market is evidence that new entrants are not prevented from entering that same market.

I can't see how the two are related to be honest.

clevtrev · 07-12-2019 11:22AM

Zzippy wrote: »

Well the EU are still investigating the Irish industry for cartel practices. We 'll see what that uncovers. Even if it is 30%, how does that justify a 75% increase in average premium, with hugely greater increases for some categories?

the 30% increase only reflects the awards by PIAB. If 50% of these move to the courts, which they inevitably do as solicitors get no payments from PIAB, you can be assured that the increase in the last 6 years is far greater than 30%.

Im not defending the insurance industry and I'm sure they are also benefiting from the massive increases in premiums but they are not driving these increases.

troyzer · 07-12-2019 12:46PM

clevtrev wrote: »

not sure where you are getting the statistics but PIAB's own award statistics show an increase from 243m in 2013 to 315m in 2017 which is a 30% increase, not 3%. Over 50% of PIAB awards are also rejected by claimants because the PIAB award is used as a baseline for negotiation in the courts.

https://www.piab.ie/eng/about-piab/statistics/

Racketeering and profiteering accusations don't make sense when UK insurers and Lloyds underwriters are pulling out of the Irish market. Cartels can only exist when new entrants are prevented from entering the market for whatever reason. This is not the case in Ireland

There are issues with new entrants due to the Insurance Ireland industry group holding claims data that's critical to building actuarial models.

And to join the group, you have to get consent from current members.

In another words, Liberty or AXA can easily cock block new competitors.

kippy · 07-12-2019 01:14PM

troyzer wrote: »

There are issues with new entrants due to the Insurance Ireland industry group holding claims data that's critical to building actuarial models.

And to join the group, you have to get consent from current members.

In another news, Liberty or AXA can easily cock block new competitors.

Sounds a bit C*RTEL like.

clevtrev · 07-12-2019 02:12PM

troyzer wrote: »

There are issues with new entrants due to the Insurance Ireland industry group holding claims data that's critical to building actuarial models.

And to join the group, you have to get consent from current members.

In another words, Liberty or AXA can easily cock block new competitors.

this may be correct but a lot of the policies in the Irish market are written with Lloyds London and not the Irish based insurers. It is difficult enforce a cartel if you have the world's largest underwriter sitting on your doorstep. Lloyds provide a lot of the competition in the Irish market

07-12-2019 02:35PM

What claims were made against them?

Squidgy Black · 07-12-2019 03:25PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What claims were made against them?

No idea what the claims are, but they'd be non-player related claims because it was public liability insurance they were refused for, so likely something to do with the grounds or the clubhouse.

sydthebeat · 07-12-2019 03:26PM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

No idea what the claims are, but they'd be non-player related claims because it was public liability insurance they were refused for, so likely something to do with the grounds or the clubhouse.

I need to do some more digging, but rumour is it was player based....

Squidgy Black · 07-12-2019 03:30PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

I need to do some more digging, but rumour is it was player based....

If it was a playing injury that'd be covered by the IRFU though no?

Edit: I should've said non-playing related as opposed to player, could well be a player claiming against facilities etc.

tabby aspreme · 07-12-2019 03:35PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

I need to do some more digging, but rumour is it was player based....

Absolute Bull****, one claim from a private function in the clubhouse, the other a visiting spectator where Athy was a neutral ground

sydthebeat · 07-12-2019 03:36PM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

If it was a playing injury that'd be covered by the IRFU though no?

Edit: I should've said non-playing related as opposed to player, could well be a player claiming against facilities etc.

Correct

Player v player contact isn't covered in a clubs combined insurance in general.

I don't want to surmise any further, it's just something I heard as an aside this morning.

irishbucsfan · 07-12-2019 04:10PM

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Absolute Bull****, one claim from a private function in the clubhouse, the other a visiting spectator where Athy was a neutral ground

One other I think historically which was someone who had rented their astro as well, I heard. But yes, it wasn't player-related

Eggs For Dinner · 08-12-2019 03:04PM

troyzer wrote: »

There are issues with new entrants due to the Insurance Ireland industry group holding claims data that's critical to building actuarial models.

And to join the group, you have to get consent from current members.

In another words, Liberty or AXA can easily cock block new competitors.

The EU is investigating Insurance Ireland because they will not share their claim information with non-members. Insurance Ireland fund this database from their own resources, so why should they give it out to potential competitors for free? Membership is open to anyone who wants to join and nobody has ever been refused.

If liability insurance for sports clubs and other leisure activities was making mony, why are all insurers running for the hills? The answer is in there

troyzer · 08-12-2019 03:14PM

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

The EU is investigating Insurance Ireland because they will not share their claim information with non-members. Insurance Ireland fund this database from their own resources, so why should they give it out to potential competitors for free? Membership is open to anyone who wants to join and nobody has ever been refused.

If liability insurance for sports clubs and other leisure activities was making mony, why are all insurers running for the hills? The answer is in there

I actually agree that the bigger problem is the size of payouts and the out of control compo culture. But the insurance companies are not saints. They guard their data jealously.

We know about court payouts, but most claims are settled and there's no public record of the amounts. So the insurance companies could be talking out of their arse and we'd have no idea.

As with all things, I think it's a bit of both.

Eggs For Dinner · 08-12-2019 03:22PM

troyzer wrote: »

I actually agree that the bigger problem is the size of payouts and the out of control compo culture. But the insurance companies are not saints. They guard their data jealously.

We know about court payouts, but most claims are settled and there's no public record of the amounts. So the insurance companies could be talking out of their arse and we'd have no idea.

As with all things, I think it's a bit of both.

Oh I agree they are no saints and I know they only care about profit. That leads me to believe the reason why so many insurers are abandoning Ireland is because they are not making money. Now the reason they are not making money may well be incompetence or recklessness but I deal with claims on a daily basis and I see what goes on

troyzer · 08-12-2019 04:29PM

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Oh I agree they are no saints and I know they only care about profit. That leads me to believe the reason why so many insurers are abandoning Ireland is because they are not making money. Now the reason they are not making money may well be incompetence or recklessness but I deal with claims on a daily basis and I see what goes on

Is it really the case that SO many insurers are leaving Ireland?

Athy RFC may have to closedown

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