Athy RFC may have to closedown

Quin_Dub · 05-12-2019 3:43pm #1

Athy RFC may have to close down on Monday because they cannot get any Insurance coverage

The future of the 140-year-old Athy Rugby Club is in serious doubt due to the club's difficulty in securing public liability insurance.

Athy said they are having "grave difficulty" trying to find an insurer because of two claims, one historic and one pending.

The likes of Ireland international Joey Carbery, his Munster team-mate Jeremy Loughman and Ireland Under-20 full-back Martin Moloney have all come through the Athy ranks, but the gates of the old club could be closed within the next four days.

A letter issued to members from honorary secretary Brendan Conroy outlined the scale of the problem facing the south Kildare club, which will be forced to fold its teams and close its grounds from midnight on Monday, 9 December unless they find a solution.

Terrible situation for such a well established club to find themselves in , for any club to be honest.

The whole situation with claims & Insurance here has really gotten out of hand completely.

errlloyd · 05-12-2019 4:14pm

I am not sure what to do here.

I work in the insurance industry, albeit a mile from liability insurance. I believe them when they say that the business simply is not profitable here as things stand.

I think legislation needs to be rushed through the Dail on this, just waiting for the courts culture to change won't be quick enough for all the businesses and clubs we have lost this year.

irishbucsfan · 05-12-2019 4:18pm

Feel really awful for them. Have played them countless times since I was a child.

The claims themselves are bull**** as well, especially since two of them happened through non-rugby activities that the club required just to survive anyway

Dravokivich · 05-12-2019 4:20pm

To me it's a bit nuts, you need public liability insurance, but if anyone claims off it, you won't be getting any renewals. It makes no odds whether or not you have it then.

kippy · 05-12-2019 4:22pm

It's gonna take a few high profile clubs/sporting organisations/businesses to go public with stuff like this to being about any level of change.
I've noticed a couple of local businesses go public with their insurance issues and the more that do this the better.

It's gotten to the point where it needs to be an election issue.

tabby aspreme · 05-12-2019 4:32pm

If this can't be solved in the next few days there will be hundreds of kids who won't be able to participate in their sport next week, the club has huge numbers of minis and youth players, putting out teams each week in every age grade from u7 to u18.5, and this year for the first time have full u 12,14,16, and 18 girls teams.

kippy · 05-12-2019 4:41pm

tabby aspreme wrote: »

If this can't be solved in the next few days there will be hundreds of kids who won't be able to participate in their sport next week, the club has huge numbers of minis and youth players, putting out teams each week in every age grade from u7 to u18.5, and this year for the first time have full u 12,14,16, and 18 girls teams.

And unfortunately, it is going to take a few of those high impact issues for people and politicians to actually take note.

Quin_Dub · 05-12-2019 4:45pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Feel really awful for them. Have played them countless times since I was a child.

The claims themselves are bull**** as well, especially since two of them happened through non-rugby activities that the club required just to survive anyway

It's a key point here - Club members cannot sue the club (as technically you cannot sue yourself) so all of these claims will be always be Non-Rugby related - As long as everybody playing/coaching is a fully paid up member.

So - If you are involved with a club make sure you have a "No Pay , No Play" policy to protect the club from liability claims unless the club explicitly offers a separate medical insurance policy (which some clubs do).

Agree with others though that some kind of legislation is needed , either to cap the amount of claims or perhaps more importantly to provide for legal recourse for Insurers and the Insured against spurious claimants - I don't know anything about the specific actions against Athy RFC , but the broader impact of spurious claims is what is driving up costs and making insurers gun-shy to insure certain businesses or even categories of business.

sydthebeat · 05-12-2019 4:46pm

This is disgraceful.... and its a time bomb waiting to happen

as far as i know there is only one UK based underwriters who will take on irish clubs (ODON) and if they decide to walk from ireland we're all screwed.

i will suggest the problem is that there is an open claim. People in the industry will know better, but from my experience having a open claim when a renewal is due is a nightmare.

i know Athy RFC very well, and there are excellent people there, including Brendan Conroy.
Between this, and the ring road issue they had a few years back, they are getting it from all sides.

kippy · 05-12-2019 4:49pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

It's a key point here - Club members cannot sue the club (as technically you cannot sue yourself) so all of these claims will be always be Non-Rugby related - As long as everybody playing/coaching is a fully paid up member.

So - If you are involved with a club make sure you have a "No Pay , No Play" policy to protect the club from liability claims unless the club explicitly offers a separate medical insurance policy (which some clubs do).

Agree with others though that some kind of legislation is needed , either to cap the amount of claims or perhaps more importantly to provide for legal recourse for Insurers and the Insured against spurious claimants - I don't know anything about the specific actions against Athy RFC , but the broader impact of spurious claims is what is driving up costs and making insurers gun-shy to insure certain businesses or even categories of business.

You essentially need to make sure that only members have access to and use the club grounds/facilities to make that work - that's not in any way feasible unfortunately.

The laws are the problem, so the laws need to be changed, not putting additional workload/unrealistic expectations on clubs and businesses.

05-12-2019 4:53pm

errlloyd wrote: »

I am not sure what to do here.

I work in the insurance industry, albeit a mile from liability insurance. I believe them when they say that the business simply is not profitable here as things stand.

I think legislation needs to be rushed through the Dail on this, just waiting for the courts culture to change won't be quick enough for all the businesses and clubs we have lost this year.

It's a fundamentally broken model.

Insurers will put policies through their risk models and realise that they can insure a hundred 30 year old female drivers for the same risk as they can insure 1 rugby club. The rugby club to get access to the insurers cover 'pool' needs to then pay the same amount as 100 policies for the Insurer to take them on.

Spurious claims are a problem, regulatory restrictions on insurers are in parts far too arbitrary and the courts system is in a constant state of disagreement over awards.

What's left is an industry just not working as intended, and clubs like Athy suffering as a result.

Insurers are milking it for sure, but they've been placed in a position where they can do that whilst also being able to deny responsibility.

Country is crying out for a public option.

lawred2 · 05-12-2019 4:54pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

It's a key point here - Club members cannot sue the club (as technically you cannot sue yourself) so all of these claims will be always be Non-Rugby related - As long as everybody playing/coaching is a fully paid up member.

So - If you are involved with a club make sure you have a "No Pay , No Play" policy to protect the club from liability claims unless the club explicitly offers a separate medical insurance policy (which some clubs do).

Agree with others though that some kind of legislation is needed , either to cap the amount of claims or perhaps more importantly to provide for legal recourse for Insurers and the Insured against spurious claimants - I don't know anything about the specific actions against Athy RFC , but the broader impact of spurious claims is what is driving up costs and making insurers gun-shy to insure certain businesses or even categories of business.

what do you mean?

an injured player/coach can't claim for treatment?

sydthebeat · 05-12-2019 4:55pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

It

So - If you are involved with a club make sure you have a "No Pay , No Play" policy to protect the club from liability claims unless the club explicitly offers a separate medical insurance policy (which some clubs do).

that doesnt protect you from the public indemnity issues though

Our insurance doesnt cover "participant v participant" claims anyway

Quin_Dub · 05-12-2019 4:55pm

kippy wrote: »

You essnetially need to make sure that only members have access to and use the club grounds/facilities to make that work - that's not in any way feasible unfortunately.
The laws are the problem, so the laws need to be changed, not putting additional workload/unrealistic expectations on clubs and businesses.

Don't disagree with that at all - My comments were more about controlling what you could directly control(your own members) rather than suggesting it as a complete solution.

Laws absolutely have to change , there need to be caps on claims and there absolutely needs to be penalties for exaggerated/spurious claims.

I've lost count of the times that I've read court reports where a Judge has thrown out claims in court due to them being utterly unbelievable but the claimant and their legal team walk away most of the time without any impact to them.

That has to change - If a judge basically rejects your claim because you lied you absolutely positively need to be penalised for that , at least mandatory costs awarded against you or more depending on the nature and extent of the issue.

sydthebeat · 05-12-2019 4:57pm

lawred2 wrote: »

what do you mean?

an injured player/coach can't claim for treatment?

no, a member cannot claim off the clubs insurance as they are essentially suing themselves.

AON provide a players insurance policy which comes with registration... and some clubs may provide a more indepth insurance cover which would cover treatment costs, loss of earnings etc but this would require individual players paying into it... and its separate from a clubs combined insurance

Quin_Dub · 05-12-2019 4:59pm

lawred2 wrote: »

what do you mean?

an injured player/coach can't claim for treatment?

Not against their "home" club.

If the club offer a "personal injury policy" then yes , but a member cannot claim against their own clubs liability insurance.

05-12-2019 5:00pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

It's a key point here - Club members cannot sue the club (as technically you cannot sue yourself) so all of these claims will be always be Non-Rugby related - As long as everybody playing/coaching is a fully paid up member.

So - If you are involved with a club make sure you have a "No Pay , No Play" policy to protect the club from liability claims unless the club explicitly offers a separate medical insurance policy (which some clubs do).

That's fine, but it wouldn't prevent a member of a visiting rugby club suing the club for a rugby-related incident.

I recall a friend falling in the showers after a game* and suffering a very severe head injury that almost killed him. He would have been in dire straits without being able to obtain compo from the host club's insurers.

* almost 40 years ago

lawred2 · 05-12-2019 5:06pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Not against their "home" club.

If the club offer a "personal injury policy" then yes , but a member cannot claim against their own clubs liability insurance.

Well I can tell you that our club are less than clear about this. I'll have to follow up at the weekend.

Quin_Dub · 05-12-2019 5:07pm

171170 wrote: »

That's fine, but it wouldn't prevent a member of a visiting rugby club suing the club for a rugby-related incident.

I recall a friend falling in the showers after a game* and suffering a very severe head injury that almost killed him. He would have been in dire straits without being able to obtain compo from the host club's insurers.

* almost 40 years ago

You are correct , and again I obviously don't know the specifics of the above case so not in anyway demeaning or disparaging your friend , but broadly speaking why should a scenario like the one you describe automatically mean that the club was liable?

If the shower area was in some way not up to the required safety standards , had poor maintenance or whatever then absolutely a claim is reasonable.

But - If you just trip/fall over because of a million possible reasons , none of which are the result of negligence on the part of the location then you should not be able to make a claim.

That is the fundamental issue here - No ones seems willing to say "I fell over because I wasn't paying full attention and broke a bone/split my head , but it was my fault so **** happens"

The immediate response today seems to be "Who can I sue to get a few quid for this?" and it's killing businesses and public amenities across the country.

arsebiscuits1 · 05-12-2019 5:24pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

You are correct , and again I obviously don't know the specifics of the above case so not in anyway demeaning or disparaging your friend , but broadly speaking why should a scenario like the one you describe automatically mean that the club was liable?

If the shower area was in some way not up to the required safety standards , had poor maintenance or whatever then absolutely a claim is reasonable.

But - If you just trip/fall over because of a million possible reasons , none of which are the result of negligence on the part of the location then you should not be able to make a claim.

That is the fundamental issue here - No ones seems willing to say "I fell over because I wasn't paying full attention and broke a bone/split my head , but it was my fault so **** happens"

The immediate response today seems to be "Who can I sue to get a few quid for this?" and it's killing businesses and public amenities across the country.

Adding to this (and not directing this at 171170's mate, just at the compo culture in general) people are less and less willing to admit that sometimes, things are their fault.

Yes it's **** you got hurt, but it doesn't always have to be someone else fault. Sometimes people have rotten luck and it really shouldn't be down to other people to offset this

Yeah_Right · 05-12-2019 5:32pm

Ireland needs to follow NZ's model. They have the Accident Compensation Corporation. Its funded by tax from businesses (I think) and it covers the medical costs for all injuries as well as loss of earnings for time off (up to 80% I think). It means there are no personal injury lawsuits in NZ. Of course there are chancers who try to defraud the system by claiming ACC when they have actually fully recovered but there is an investigative department and the penalties are quite stiff.

Quin_Dub · 05-12-2019 5:43pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Ireland needs to follow NZ's model. They have the Accident Compensation Corporation. Its funded by tax from businesses (I think) and it covers the medical costs for all injuries as well as loss of earnings for time off (up to 80% I think). It means there are no personal injury lawsuits in NZ. Of course there are chancers who try to defraud the system by claiming ACC when they have actually fully recovered but there is an investigative department and the penalties are quite stiff.

That's the big bit that's missing here - Chancers and Ambulance Chasers lodging no-risk claims against everybody..That has to stop.

sydthebeat · 05-12-2019 5:44pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

That's the big bit that's missing here - Chancers and Ambulance Chasers lodging no-risk claims against everybody..That has to stop.

they are the rats that follow the cheese

stop the cheese, you stop the rats

crisco10 · 05-12-2019 6:04pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

That is the fundamental issue here - No ones seems willing to say "I fell over because I wasn't paying full attention and broke a bone/split my head , but it was my fault so **** happens"

The immediate response today seems to be "Who can I sue to get a few quid for this?" and it's killing businesses and public amenities across the country.

I was messing with a running buddy a few years ago on some monkey bars in a park and felt my shoulder twinge. Long story short, a year later I ended up getting minor shoulder surgery. I never claimed off the council, because why would I, I was the one messing and hanging one armed off a damned monkey bar.

Nonetheless, given the culture in this country, I have no doubt a lot of people would have claimed off the council for not putting a sign up showing how exactly to use monkey bars or similar. Which is just entirely ridiculous and unfair. I just wonder is it 1 in 10 who claim or 6 in 10 or...

Quin_Dub · 05-12-2019 6:14pm

crisco10 wrote: »

I was messing with a running buddy a few years ago on some monkey bars in a park and felt my shoulder twinge. Long story short, a year later I ended up getting minor shoulder surgery. I never claimed off the council, because why would I, I was the one messing and hanging one armed off a damned monkey bar.

Nonetheless, given the culture in this country, I have no doubt a lot of people would have claimed off the council for not putting a sign up showing how exactly to use monkey bars or similar. Which is just entirely ridiculous and unfair. I just wonder is it 1 in 10 who claim or 6 in 10 or...

Exactly , sometimes it's a self-inflicted wound because you were horsing around or whatever , sometimes it's just a confluence of multiple things that mean you fall over or bump into something etc. but none of those things mean that the owners of the location of the incident are automatically liable to cover your possible costs/losses.

The concept of Personal responsibility and "Accidental" needs to be codified and strengthened in the laws around Insurance claims.

joseywhales · 05-12-2019 6:24pm

There is some serious contrast in Ireland between a club run by volunteers providing an outlet for kids to exercise and socialise and a culture where even high profile politicians get caught out trying to claim against businesses for self inflicted"falls" while inebriated. It's a good example of the rot starting from the top down.

Are they really going to allow the country to become dominated by the latter.

I don't live in Ireland anymore but I have played athy many times growing up and I have met many such volunteers working hard for nothing but because they believe in what they are doing, the usual characters painting lines, making food, coaching kids every weekend, this is some insult to all of those people.

joeysoap · 05-12-2019 6:28pm

This insurance thing affects other clubs and other sports too

Sligo Rovers highlighted their case earlier in the year,

Anything change since..,,,,,.....?

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/sligo-rovers-lament-significant-issues-fai-202884

kippy · 05-12-2019 7:40pm

joeysoap wrote: »

This insurance thing affects other clubs and other sports too

Sligo Rovers highlighted their case earlier in the year,

Anything change since..,,,,,.....?

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/sligo-rovers-lament-significant-issues-fai-202884

This is what I am saying above, it effects every organisation and business and indeed individual in one way or another - it's gonna take a few high profile shutdowns for things to change unfortunately.

Yeah_Right · 05-12-2019 7:50pm

Whatever happened to claims filed against the IRFU by "fans" who got hit by ball at the Aviva?

daphil · 05-12-2019 10:47pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Ireland needs to follow NZ's model. They have the Accident Compensation Corporation. Its funded by tax from businesses (I think) and it covers the medical costs for all injuries as well as loss of earnings for time off (up to 80% I think). It means there are no personal injury lawsuits in NZ. Of course there are chancers who try to defraud the system by claiming ACC when they have actually fully recovered but there is an investigative department and the penalties are quite stiff.

Am in NZ at the moment and yesterday my grandsons' had a school picnic in a local park. If you could see the equipment there, Flying foxes, (Zip Lines), huge climbing frames, water cannons etc. None of these would be allowed in Ireland because of insurance risks.
It's the same story in the school playgrounds. They charge around the place and use climbing frames etc.
How this country needs something like NZ's "Accident Compensation Corporation", it might lead to us producing some "hardy boys/girls" for the Rugby team.
Dave

Zzippy · 06-12-2019 12:02am

This needs legislation to address widespread racketeering/cartel activities of the insurance companies. Read stats recently that despite the industry PR of massive claims, in the last 6 years the total value of claims paid out increased by 3%, while premiums increased by 75%. There is no justification for that except profiteering on a massive scale.

Squidgy Black · 06-12-2019 12:26am

Zzippy wrote: »

This needs legislation to address widespread racketeering/cartel activities of the insurance companies. Read stats recently that despite the industry PR of massive claims, in the last 6 years the total value of claims paid out increased by 3%, while premiums increased by 75%. There is no justification for that except profiteering on a massive scale.

There's two parts of it that need to be addressed, first is the mechanisms to cap injury claim payouts (personal injury payouts in Ireland are around 4.4 times higher than the UK on average) unless there's serious injury caused by malpractice or negligence, and prosecution and financial costs for fraudulent claims. Most solicitors in Ireland will take on injury claims on a no win no fee basis due to the fact insurers generally just settle and if they lose the claimant won't be liable for paying the defendant's legal fees.

Second is as you said, clamping down on profiteering by the insurance ring. I remember the Oireachtas hearing where the insurers said well sure we think about 20% of claims could be fraudulent, around 1000, but we only actually send around 50 a year to the Garda.

thebaz · 06-12-2019 12:49am

terrible news , but in our nanny state of today where no one is resposible for anything and accidents can't happen , hardly surprising , obviously ther are some great legal people in this country but ther are others that have helped create this situation , driven by greed (The Ambulance chasing mob) .
Ther was a case brought against a school recently where a mother tried to sue the school cause her son got slightly injured playing football at break - Accidents are a part of a healthy lfe. Thankfully the Judge saw sense, realising how important ball sports are for children in the computer world of today.
The greed of a few will create a pretty unenjoyable environment for the majority very soon, as seams to have happened in Athy. Some very esteemed people should bow ther heads in shame.

stephen_n · 06-12-2019 9:06am

Zzippy wrote: »

This needs legislation to address widespread racketeering/cartel activities of the insurance companies. Read stats recently that despite the industry PR of massive claims, in the last 6 years the total value of claims paid out increased by 3%, while premiums increased by 75%. There is no justification for that except profiteering on a massive scale.

There’s definitely some truth in that, the insurance companies are playing it up. The levels of claims payouts are ridiculous in this country though. €75,000 grand for getting stuck in a lift for 45 minutes. They may not have risen in the last six years but they are massively out of line with the rest of Europe and have been for a long time. We are in a position where we should have competition from Europe, but those companies won’t touch this market because of the size of the payouts.

Zzippy · 06-12-2019 11:05am

stephen_n wrote: »

There’s definitely some truth in that, the insurance companies are playing it up. The levels of claims payouts are ridiculous in this country though. €75,000 grand for getting stuck in a lift for 45 minutes. They may not have risen in the last six years but they are massively out of line with the rest of Europe and have been for a long time. We are in a position where we should have competition from Europe, but those companies won’t touch this market because of the size of the payouts.

The insurance companies were making profits 6 years ago. Claims haven't increased more than 3%. The level of individual claims may be ridiculous, but if their expenditure increased 3% and prices increased 75%, that's profiteering. Going around blaming individuals for exaggerated claims is exactly what the industry want people doing, it takes the focus off their racket entirely. If people have genuine accidents, they are entitled to claim, that's what they pay insurance for. Victim blaming is just swallowing the insurance industry PR and playing their game. And I say that as someone who had a bad injury due to a trip hazard, required surgery and extensive physio, but never claimed a penny except off my own health insurance.

Zzippy · 06-12-2019 11:21am

From today's IT: Insurance industry’s ‘compo culture’ spin dodgiest claim of all

Acceptance of the “compo culture” narrative implies a few possibilities: that the numbers of claims is increasing due to fraudulent reports, that this has led to a spike in awards thus driving up costs, and that award levels are too high.

The first two are demonstrably untrue. Official data from the Courts Service shows that the overall number of personal injury claims filed in court in 2018 fell 1.6 per cent to 22,049. If false claimants were feasting on the system, that number would surely be rising. If insurers are settling claims they believe to be fraudulent then the industry needs an overhaul and has itself to blame.

District court filings, dealing with claims of up to €15,000, were down 2.4 per cent. Circuit court personal injury claims of up to €60,000 – encompassing the sweet spot for many motor claims – were down 4.3 per cent. The number of High Court cases was statistically flat.

Excluding medical negligence awards, which were down a total of 7.5 per cent, the amount awarded in other personal injury claims in the High Court was down by a fifth in total, or an average of 23 per cent in each case. The total burden on the insurance industry of personal injury claims has barely risen at all since 2013.

a hapless cadre of insurance industry chief executives at an Oireachtas committee meeting in July.

They each rolled up to claim, with straight faces, that about 20 per cent of all claims are “fraudulent”. Applying that metric across the industry, there must be close to 5,000 dodgy claims a year among cases that get to court alone, and perhaps eight times that number across all cases taken annually.

Yet how many suspected frauds did the industry report to guards in a six-month period until March this year? A paltry 19 in total. The “compo culture” emperor is stark blooming naked, and hasn’t worn a stitch in years.

tabby aspreme · 06-12-2019 3:39pm

The insurance issue has been sorted, a huge effort put in by club officials over the last few weeks, with help from Leinster branch and IRFU. ðŸ˜

But the underlying issues still need to be fixed

sydthebeat · 06-12-2019 3:43pm

tabby aspreme wrote: »

The insurance issue has been sorted, a huge effort put in by club officials over the last few weeks, with help from Leinster branch and IRFU. ðŸ˜

But the underlying issues still need to be fixed

have we any idea how it was fixed?

financial help to pay an extortionate premium?
another under writer found?

06-12-2019 3:43pm

tabby aspreme wrote: »

The insurance issue has been sorted, a huge effort put in by club officials over the last few weeks, with help from Leinster branch and IRFU. ðŸ˜

But the underlying issues still need to be fixed

That's great news, but is there any reason this won't just happen again next season?

tabby aspreme · 06-12-2019 4:27pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

have we any idea how it was fixed?

financial help to pay an extortionate premium?
another under writer found?

Don't know the full details, but the problem was that no company would give a quote, due to an open claim

crisco10 · 06-12-2019 5:22pm

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Don't know the full details, but the problem was that no company would give a quote, due to an open claim

IRFU self insuring or something? surely they can't afford that.

pickarooney · 07-12-2019 9:35am

Maybe sent a couple of international props over to talk to the claimants.

Former Coach · 07-12-2019 10:08am

pickarooney wrote: »

Maybe sent a couple of international props over to talk to the claimants.

Well I think John Hayes would just start crying when he hears the details......

clevtrev · 07-12-2019 10:26am

Zzippy wrote: »

This needs legislation to address widespread racketeering/cartel activities of the insurance companies. Read stats recently that despite the industry PR of massive claims, in the last 6 years the total value of claims paid out increased by 3%, while premiums increased by 75%. There is no justification for that except profiteering on a massive scale.

not sure where you are getting the statistics but PIAB's own award statistics show an increase from 243m in 2013 to 315m in 2017 which is a 30% increase, not 3%. Over 50% of PIAB awards are also rejected by claimants because the PIAB award is used as a baseline for negotiation in the courts.

https://www.piab.ie/eng/about-piab/statistics/

Racketeering and profiteering accusations don't make sense when UK insurers and Lloyds underwriters are pulling out of the Irish market. Cartels can only exist when new entrants are prevented from entering the market for whatever reason. This is not the case in Ireland

Zzippy · 07-12-2019 11:14am

clevtrev wrote: »

not sure where you are getting the statistics but PIAB's own award statistics show an increase from 243m in 2013 to 315m in 2017 which is a 30% increase, not 3%. Over 50% of PIAB awards are also rejected by claimants because the PIAB award is used as a baseline for negotiation in the courts.

https://www.piab.ie/eng/about-piab/statistics/

Racketeering and profiteering accusations don't make sense when UK insurers and Lloyds underwriters are pulling out of the Irish market. Cartels can only exist when new entrants are prevented from entering the market for whatever reason. This is not the case in Ireland

Well the EU are still investigating the Irish industry for cartel practices. We 'll see what that uncovers. Even if it is 30%, how does that justify a 75% increase in average premium, with hugely greater increases for some categories?

lawred2 · 07-12-2019 11:20am

clevtrev wrote: »

not sure where you are getting the statistics but PIAB's own award statistics show an increase from 243m in 2013 to 315m in 2017 which is a 30% increase, not 3%. Over 50% of PIAB awards are also rejected by claimants because the PIAB award is used as a baseline for negotiation in the courts.

https://www.piab.ie/eng/about-piab/statistics/

Racketeering and profiteering accusations don't make sense when UK insurers and Lloyds underwriters are pulling out of the Irish market. Cartels can only exist when new entrants are prevented from entering the market for whatever reason. This is not the case in Ireland

So because an existing player is leaving a small market is evidence that new entrants are not prevented from entering that same market.

I can't see how the two are related to be honest.

clevtrev · 07-12-2019 11:22am

Zzippy wrote: »

Well the EU are still investigating the Irish industry for cartel practices. We 'll see what that uncovers. Even if it is 30%, how does that justify a 75% increase in average premium, with hugely greater increases for some categories?

the 30% increase only reflects the awards by PIAB. If 50% of these move to the courts, which they inevitably do as solicitors get no payments from PIAB, you can be assured that the increase in the last 6 years is far greater than 30%.

Im not defending the insurance industry and I'm sure they are also benefiting from the massive increases in premiums but they are not driving these increases.

troyzer · 07-12-2019 12:46pm

clevtrev wrote: »

not sure where you are getting the statistics but PIAB's own award statistics show an increase from 243m in 2013 to 315m in 2017 which is a 30% increase, not 3%. Over 50% of PIAB awards are also rejected by claimants because the PIAB award is used as a baseline for negotiation in the courts.

https://www.piab.ie/eng/about-piab/statistics/

Racketeering and profiteering accusations don't make sense when UK insurers and Lloyds underwriters are pulling out of the Irish market. Cartels can only exist when new entrants are prevented from entering the market for whatever reason. This is not the case in Ireland

There are issues with new entrants due to the Insurance Ireland industry group holding claims data that's critical to building actuarial models.

And to join the group, you have to get consent from current members.

In another words, Liberty or AXA can easily cock block new competitors.

kippy · 07-12-2019 1:14pm

troyzer wrote: »

There are issues with new entrants due to the Insurance Ireland industry group holding claims data that's critical to building actuarial models.

And to join the group, you have to get consent from current members.

In another news, Liberty or AXA can easily cock block new competitors.

Sounds a bit C*RTEL like.

clevtrev · 07-12-2019 2:12pm

troyzer wrote: »

There are issues with new entrants due to the Insurance Ireland industry group holding claims data that's critical to building actuarial models.

And to join the group, you have to get consent from current members.

In another words, Liberty or AXA can easily cock block new competitors.

this may be correct but a lot of the policies in the Irish market are written with Lloyds London and not the Irish based insurers. It is difficult enforce a cartel if you have the world's largest underwriter sitting on your doorstep. Lloyds provide a lot of the competition in the Irish market

07-12-2019 2:35pm

What claims were made against them?

Athy RFC may have to closedown

Comments