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Have we reach peak LGBT nonsense?

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    #1442
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    salmocab wrote: »
    Nobody cramped Folaus free speech he’s as free today to say and think what he wants as he was before this all started.

    Free wouldn't normally mean you lose you job. How free is someone else to speak along those lines knowing they may lose their job.

    I'm not sure you know what freedom of speech means.


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    #1443
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Free wouldn't normally mean you lose you job. How free is someone else to speak along those lines knowing they may lose their job.

    I'm not sure you know what freedom of speech means.

    It depends on the terms and conditions of the contract signed with one's employers really.

    If Falou's employers were, for example, a certain US fried chicken chain or a particular bakery in Belfast I am sure his job would have been safe. However, he worked for an organisation with a clearly defined code of conduct that specified making derogatory, demeaning, and/or negatively judgmental remarks about people based on their sexual orientation on social media was a big No-No.
    And he did just that. But they didn't sack him. No, they warned him not to do it again.
    Then he did it again.
    so they sacked him.

    People are 'free' to say what they want.
    People are not 'free' to avoid the consequences - good or bad - that arise from saying what they want.


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    #1444
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    It depends on the terms and conditions of the contract signed with one's employers really.

    If Falou's employers were, for example, a certain US fried chicken chain or a particular bakery in Belfast I am sure his job would have been safe. However, he worked for an organisation with a clearly defined code of conduct that specified making derogatory, demeaning, and/or negatively judgmental remarks about people based on their sexual orientation on social media was a big No-No.
    And he did just that. But they didn't sack him. No, they warned him not to do it again.
    Then he did it again.
    so they sacked him.

    People are 'free' to say what they want.
    People are not 'free' to avoid the consequences - good or bad - that arise from saying what they want.

    What's derogatory about saying homosexuals, thieves and whatever other sinners he might have mentioned will go to Hell? He was indicating sinners and sinners are going to Hell.

    Did Folau's employers state they had a secular bent (which surely would have transgressed their no discrimination on religious grounds rules).

    That they hauled him in is neither here nor there. They have their rules and he contracted to them and if he was abiding by them they can't just decide to change them.


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    #1445
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Free wouldn't normally mean you lose you job. How free is someone else to speak along those lines knowing they may lose their job.

    I'm not sure you know what freedom of speech means.

    He has freedom of speech, nowhere in the world is there such a thing as freedom of speech free from consequence. He’s free to say whatever he wants still.


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    #1446
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    What's derogatory about saying homosexuals, thieves and whatever other sinners he might have mentioned will go to Hell? He was indicating sinners and sinners are going to Hell.

    Did Folau's employers state they had a secular bent (which surely would have transgressed their no discrimination on religious grounds rules).

    That they hauled him in is neither here nor there. They have their rules and he contracted to them and if he was abiding by them they can't just decide to change them.

    If you read this thread from the beginning that has been explained several times.

    But here's a clue - equating someone who is Gay with a thief and considering them to be much the same in terms of acceptability.


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    #1447
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    What's derogatory about saying homosexuals, thieves and whatever other sinners he might have mentioned will go to Hell? He was indicating sinners and sinners are going to Hell.

    Did Folau's employers state they had a secular bent (which surely would have transgressed their no discrimination on religious grounds rules).

    That they hauled him in is neither here nor there. They have their rules and he contracted to them and if he was abiding by them they can't just decide to change them.

    Do you think it's ok to group homosexuals and thieves in the same group?


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    #1448
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,866 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    See the thing is that there are many religious people out there who believe in the Bible and believe that if you have sex with the same gender that you are sinning.
    If somebody critics their beliefs and calls them homophobic they don't lose their jobs over it.
    It's one-sided, the religious are now where the gay people were 25 years ago.
    It was wrong then and it's wrong now too.


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    #1449
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    eagle eye wrote: »
    See the thing is that there are many religious people out there who believe in the Bible and believe that if you have sex with the same gender that you are sinning.
    If somebody critics their beliefs and calls them homophobic they don't lose their jobs over it.
    It's one-sided, the religious are now where the gay people were 25 years ago.
    It was wrong then and it's wrong now too.

    Perhaps if these religious folks kept their opinions to themselves - or even better stopped trying to repeal anti-discrimination laws - they wouldn't get called homophobic.
    Just a suggestion.

    I believe Jesus put it as 'judge not lest ye be judged'.


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    #1450
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,632 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    eagle eye wrote: »
    It's one-sided, the religious are now where the gay people were 25 years ago.
    It was wrong then and it's wrong now too.

    Some religious people judge gay people for being gay.

    These religious people then wonder why nobody likes them and their opinions.

    :confused::confused::confused:


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    #1451
    Jolene Ashy Bassinet
    Posts: 0 ✭ Jolene Ashy Bassinet


    eagle eye wrote: »
    It's one-sided, the religious are now where the gay people were 25 years ago.
    It was wrong then and it's wrong now too.

    I like to think that I keep fairly well abreast of the goings on at Leinster House, yet the criminalisation of religious folk appears to have passed me by.


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    #1452
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    Folau is not homophobic.

    His God is though.

    Ban that.


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    #1453
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    eagle eye wrote: »
    See the thing is that there are many religious people out there who believe in the Bible and believe that if you have sex with the same gender that you are sinning.
    If somebody critics their beliefs and calls them homophobic they don't lose their jobs over it.
    It's one-sided, the religious are now where the gay people were 25 years ago.
    It was wrong then and it's wrong now too.

    It’s not the same thing at all, they can have the belief but aren’t free from the ridicule it may bring, especially if they voice it in the way Folau did. The gay community 25 years ago weren’t telling straight or religious people how they felt they should they should be living their lives.


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    #1454
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    salmocab wrote: »
    It’s not the same thing at all, they can have the belief but aren’t free from the ridicule it may bring, especially if they voice it in the way Folau did. The gay community 25 years ago weren’t telling straight or religious people how they felt they should they should be living their lives.

    Why not just ridicule the belief then ?

    Taking a person's earning power away is way over the top.

    There being no such thing as hell, anyone offended by those ridiculous remarks of his, is a mental weakling.


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    #1455
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Lefty Bicek wrote: »
    Why not just ridicule the belief then ?

    Taking a person's earning power away is way over the top.

    There being no such thing as hell, anyone offended by those ridiculous remarks of his, is a mental weakling.

    He took away his own earning power. He was warned that his rants were unacceptable left him in breach on contract and he would be fired if he did it again. He persisted. He was fired. Employment is neither a right nor a privilege, it is a contractual agreement between employer and employee.

    If there's no such thing as hell, there's obviously no such thing as god either, yet blasphemy was actually illegal in this country until just last year. Seems to be a lot of 'mental weaklings' knocking around the place. :rolleyes:


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    #1456
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Lefty Bicek wrote: »
    Why not just ridicule the belief then ?

    Taking a person's earning power away is way over the top.

    There being no such thing as hell, anyone offended by those ridiculous remarks of his, is a mental weakling.

    People are free to ridicule whoever they want just like he’s free to spout whatever he wants. The people who are ridiculing him aren’t the same people that sacked him, he did something that wasn’t in keeping with his employers ethos and had been warned about it before. Plenty of people work under these kinds of conditions especially people in large well known companies.


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    #1457
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    smacl wrote: »
    He took away his own earning power. He was warned that his rants were unacceptable left him in breach on contract and he would be fired if he did it again. He persisted. He was fired. Employment is neither a right nor a privilege, it is a contractual agreement between employer and employee.

    We know all that. We've heard that smug banality a hundred times already.
    If there's no such thing as hell, there's obviously no such thing as god either, yet blasphemy was actually illegal in this country until just last year. Seems to be a lot of 'mental weaklings' knocking around the place. :rolleyes:

    Indeed, I have noticed.

    Nobody took much notice of that legislation though.

    Which only goes to show that you can have anything you want in writing, but very often the only reason it is enforced may well be expediency, rather than principle.


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    #1458
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,866 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    salmocab wrote:
    It’s not the same thing at all, they can have the belief but aren’t free from the ridicule it may bring, especially if they voice it in the way Folau did. The gay community 25 years ago weren’t telling straight or religious people how they felt they should they should be living their lives.
    Gay people were afraid to admit it 25 years ago. Now the LGBT have anyone who doesn't agree with them afraid to admit it in case they'd lose their jobs.


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    #1459
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Gay people were afraid to admit it 25 years ago. Now the LGBT have anyone who doesn't agree with them afraid to admit it in case they'd lose their jobs.

    Ah look there is a world of difference between hiding you were gay 25 years ago and not putting on Twitter that gays should repent or go to hell. Your comparing being gay 25 years ago with what Folau did not with being religious which is actually what you should be comparing it with and religious people are still free to practice and I doubt many get shouted at or abused on their way to mass like gays did years ago on their way to a gay club.


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    #1460
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,866 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Many are afraid they'll lose their jobs now if they air their opinions, that's not right.

    And just to make it clear before some idiot jumps in and says I'm religious, I'm not and I'm not anti gay either. I completely disagree with Folau's opinion.


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    #1461
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Lefty Bicek wrote: »
    Folau is not homophobic.

    His God is though.

    Ban that.

    And yet many many people worship the same god and are not homophobic.

    Perhaps Folau is using god to try and justify his own homophobia.


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    #1462
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Many are afraid they'll lose their jobs now if they air their opinions, that's not right.

    And just to make it clear before some idiot jumps in and says I'm religious, I'm not and I'm not anti gay either. I completely disagree with Folau's opinion.

    Well it depends what’s meant by air their opinions, I can’t imagine anyone is really likely to lose their job if it came out they were religious however if they started telling people how to live their lives and had their company risk losing income then that would be a different matter. Folau didn’t lose his job because he was religious that was already well known he lost it because he did something that damaged his employers brand.


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    #1463
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    smacl wrote: »
    He took away his own earning power. He was warned that his rants were unacceptable left him in breach on contract and he would be fired if he did it again. He persisted. He was fired. Employment is neither a right nor a privilege, it is a contractual agreement between employer and employee.

    If there's no such thing as hell, there's obviously no such thing as god either, yet blasphemy was actually illegal in this country until just last year. Seems to be a lot of 'mental weaklings' knocking around the place. :rolleyes:

    Sure he still has a considerable property portfolio to help him keep the wolf from the door, not to mention getting other people to pay his legal fees.


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    #1464
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Gay people were afraid to admit it 25 years ago. Now the LGBT have anyone who doesn't agree with them afraid to admit it in case they'd lose their jobs.

    I came out when I was 17.
    In Ireland.
    That was considerably more than 25 years ago and I was far from the only gay in the village.
    The first Pride march in Dublin was held in 1983.
    Also more than 25 years ago.

    And the LGBT ('the' - what's that about then?) as you call us didn't sack Falou. Australian Rugby did.

    But you'll have to forgive me if I feel no sympathy for bigots being afraid to spew their bile. They had centuries where they got away with it. And in many parts of the world still are getting away with it.


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    #1465
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    And yet many many people worship the same god and are not homophobic.

    Perhaps Folau is using god to try and justify his own homophobia.

    All becoming very Jesuitical, indeed.

    On your first point - which only goes to show that god can not be held responsible for anything, and should be made redundant.

    On your second point - perhaps. Or just misguided theological principle. OR a mixture of both.

    One would perhaps have to be predisposed to find homophobia everywhere to think as crudely as your statement suggests, about something we can never know for certain.

    Out of the crooked timber of humanity no straight thing was ever made.

    - Immanuel Kant


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    #1466
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Lefty Bicek wrote: »

    One would perhaps have to be predisposed to find homophobia everywhere to think as crudely as your statement suggests, about something we can never know for certain.




    Gee - I do love it when people say maybe you imagined it. Even when they try and intellectual it all up by using words like 'predisposed' and decanting Kant.

    I'm watching a Liam Neeson film at the moment. Haven't seen any homophobia in it because there is none there.
    Earlier I was watching a TV programme about repairing antiques -again, not a hint of homophobia.

    Last weekend I watched a few rugby matches - guess what, no homophobia.

    If I'm predisposed to see it where it isn't I'm frankly doing a crap job.


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    #1467
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,866 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    salmocab wrote:
    Well it depends what’s meant by air their opinions, I can’t imagine anyone is really likely to lose their job if it came out they were religious however if they started telling people how to live their lives and had their company risk losing income then that would be a different matter. Folau didn’t lose his job because he was religious that was already well known he lost it because he did something that damaged his employers brand.
    If they admitted at work that they believe that actively sexual gay people are sinners do you think they'd face sanction?
    It'd be wrong if they did.


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    #1468
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Gee - I do love it when people say maybe you imagined it. Even when they try and intellectual it all up by using words like 'predisposed' and decanting Kant.

    I'm watching a Liam Neeson film at the moment. Haven't seen any homophobia in it because there is none there.
    Earlier I was watching a TV programme about repairing antiques -again, not a hint of homophobia.

    Last weekend I watched a few rugby matches - guess what, no homophobia.

    If I'm predisposed to see it where it isn't I'm frankly doing a crap job.

    I didn't say you imagined it.

    I do say that your previous comment -
    Perhaps Folau is using god to try and justify his own homophobia.

    ...is impossible for you to know for certain, because it may be the result of misguided religious belief rather than inherent homophobia.

    Still, that was the card you played.


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    #1469
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    eagle eye wrote: »
    If they admitted at work that they believe that actively sexual gay people are sinners do you think they'd face sanction?
    It'd be wrong if they did.

    As already stated there are some works places where their boss would agree with them. In those workplaces coming out as gay could get you sacked - do you think that's ok?

    People face sanction for breaking the terms of their contract of employment. If you sign the contract and break it then it's 'fair' if you are sanctioned for it. Even if that contract says 'you have to be heterosexual'.


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    #1470
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    As already stated there are some works places where their boss would agree with them. In those workplaces coming out as gay could get you sacked - do you think that's ok?

    People face sanction for breaking the terms of their contract of employment. If you sign the contract and break it then it's 'fair' if you are sanctioned for it. Even if that contract says 'you have to be heterosexual'.

    WHERE is that happening ?


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    #1471
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    eagle eye wrote: »
    If they admitted at work that they believe that actively sexual gay people are sinners do you think they'd face sanction?
    It'd be wrong if they did.

    Well you see here’s the rub if they were asked in conversation then no they likely wouldn’t but if they did it in a way that damaged their employer then they possibly would. There’s a difference between admitting something and preaching it.


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