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Contactless and capped fares

  • 27-11-2019 1:29pm
    #1
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,266 ✭✭✭✭


    So having spent a weekend in London tapping my revolut connected phone a myriad of times on every available form of pubic transport and then paying a capped fare at the end of the day, I realised just how limited the leap card system is.

    So any chance we'll see such a holistic payment system in Dublin this side of 2030?


Comments

  • #2
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 976 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    lawred2 wrote: »
    So having spent a weekend in London tapping my revolut connected phone a myriad of times on every available form of pubic transport and then paying a capped fare at the end of the day, I realised just how limited the leap card system is.

    So any chance we'll see such a holistic payment system in Dublin this side of 2030?

    Yes, contactless is planned as part of busconnects, but the plan is a flat fare for 90 minutes of travel rather than zoned caps like london, whether there will be a daily cap as well on fares once the 90 minute cap is in place remains to be seen.


  • #3
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    As riddlinrussell said, contactless is coming as part of BusConnects, but capped fares are already here. There's a daily cap of €10 (if you use more than one mode of transport), and a weekly cap of €40 (again, this is if you use more than one mode of transport). If you only use one mode of transport, the fares are capped lower (i.e. Dublin Bus only is €7 daily)


  • #4
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,266 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    CatInABox wrote: »
    As riddlinrussell said, contactless is coming as part of BusConnects, but capped fares are already here. There's a daily cap of €10 (if you use more than one mode of transport), and a weekly cap of €40 (again, this is if you use more than one mode of transport). If you only use one mode of transport, the fares are capped lower (i.e. Dublin Bus only is €7 daily)

    and contactless will apply across all modes?


  • #5
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    lawred2 wrote: »
    and contactless will apply across all modes?

    Once rolled out yes


  • #6
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 976 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    As Catinabox said there is currently a cap, should have mentioned but I operated on the idea that when the contactless card functionality is added the system will likely be changed over to the 90 minute fare so possibly they will retain the 10 euro cap for a day?


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  • #7
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    As Catinabox said there is currently a cap, should have mentioned but I operated on the idea that when the contactless card functionality is added the system will likely be changed over to the 90 minute fare so possibly they will retain the 10 euro cap for a day?

    I'd be pretty confident that they'll keep a cap on it, but we won't know at what level until closer to the time. Can't see it changing massively though.


  • #8
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Just to point out, that London contactless still has a daily and weekly cap similar to Dublin. In fact Dublins cap's are pretty much modelled after it.

    The only gotcha in London with the cap, is that you have to always use the same payment card for the cap to apply. You can't use your visa credit card in the morning and then swap to a mastercard debit card later in the day. Well you can, but you will have two different daily caps then. It is one cap per card, if that makes sense.

    I'd see no reason why the 90 minute ticket would change anything with capping.


  • #9
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,266 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    bk wrote: »
    Just to point out, that London contactless still has a daily and weekly cap similar to Dublin. In fact Dublins cap's are pretty much modelled after it.

    The only gotcha in London with the cap, is that you have to always use the same payment card for the cap to apply. You can't use your visa credit card in the morning and then swap to a mastercard debit card later in the day. Well you can, but you will have two different daily caps then. It is one cap per card, if that makes sense.

    I'd see no reason why the 90 minute ticket would change anything with capping.

    I wouldn't see that as a gotcha. Hard to see how it could be implemented any other way.

    Short of having another account management system with linked cards... but that's just another layer of complexity and IT infrastructure for no gain


  • #10
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    lawred2 wrote: »
    I wouldn't see that as a gotcha. Hard to see how it could be implemented any other way.

    Short of everyone having another account management system with linked cards... but that's just another layer of complexity and IT infrastructure for no gain

    You are correct, "gotcha" was a poor choice of word on my part. I didn't mean it in a way that they are looking to rip people off. I agree that it would be complex to handle it and more of a case of an "exception" to be aware of it in London.


  • #11
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,183 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    bk wrote: »
    Just to point out, that London contactless still has a daily and weekly cap similar to Dublin. In fact Dublins cap's are pretty much modelled after it.

    The only gotcha in London with the cap, is that you have to always use the same payment card for the cap to apply. You can't use your visa credit card in the morning and then swap to a mastercard debit card later in the day. Well you can, but you will have two different daily caps then. It is one cap per card, if that makes sense.

    I'd see no reason why the 90 minute ticket would change anything with capping.

    Seriously? How would you expect TfL to manage across multiple payment cards? The daily and weekly caps mean that bank cards get a better deal than cash oyster users precisely to move away from dedicated travel cards for all but monthly and annual pass users.


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  • #12
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Seriously? How would you expect TfL to manage across multiple payment cards? The daily and weekly caps mean that bank cards get a better deal than cash oyster users precisely to move away from dedicated travel cards for all but monthly and annual pass users.

    I don't expect them to do it! Where did I say they should?!

    I'm just explaining one issue that tripped up a lot of people up in London. If you have multiple contactless cards in your wallet, it is easy to accidentally pull out a different one then you might have used earlier in the day. And some people have the habit of just holding their wallet against the reader, if you do that and have multiple cards in your wallet, different ones might get read first.

    Again, I'm not saying there is a fix for this, there isn't really a good fix for this, I'm just letting people know something to watch out for while in London and if the same gets eventually deployed here.


  • #13
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Card clash is a fairly major issue seeing as plenty of people carry three valid payment cards (debit, credit and an e-money or online full bank like n26 or revolut) now.

    It could be handled on the back end but not easily or cost-free in terms kf managing refunds


  • #14
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    L1011 wrote: »
    It could be handled on the back end but not easily or cost-free in terms kf managing refunds

    Yep, I can certainly think of ways of handling it on the backend. The bigger issue would be a fare evasion issue. Lets say you could assign multiple cards to one account online, so that they would all be treated as one persons account for the sake of the cap at the end of the day.

    The issue with this is that people could then give one of their cards to a family member to use on the same day, so that both with hit the cap quicker and get free rides.

    The only way I can think of to handle that would be for ticket inspectors checking cards or perhaps some datemining to look for unusual travel patterns. But both would have their issues.

    Easiest thing to just ignore it and inform people to only use one card.


  • #15
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Apple have just added Apple Pay Express Transit for London:

    https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/2/20991458/apple-pay-express-transit-london-tfl-feature-available

    Very cool feature, basically it allows you to use Apple pay to pay on iphone/watch, without having to do the usual FaceID, etc. Just hold the turned off phone/watch near the reader. Even works for any extra 5 hours after your phone runs out of battery (it still has a low power reserve).

    I hope the NTA eventually bring this feature here.


  • #16
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    bk wrote: »
    I hope the NTA eventually bring this feature here.
    If only there was a way for the NTA to get funds to develop a system to allow apple users pay

    I'd say 13 billion should do it.


  • #17
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    If only there was a way for the NTA to get funds to develop a system to allow apple users pay

    I'd say 13 billion should do it.

    Nta already have a project tendered out on it. They released some details about it earlier in the year with a company called Cubic.


  • #18
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    If only there was a way for the NTA to get funds to develop a system to allow apple users pay

    I'd say 13 billion should do it.

    Apple and Android Pay are just an implementation of the EMV contactless standards, so not much extra needed over normal conactless support.


  • #19
    p_haugh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,117 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Nta already have a project tendered out on it. They released some details about it earlier in the year with a company called Cubic.

    And cubic is the same company that's done the London and New York contactless systems iirc


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