Should the UK federalise?

liamtech wrote: »

Its an interesting concept. I think it depends on what we consider the differences are, between a 'nation' and a 'state'. For me i have always considered a 'state' to be an administrative area, governed by an Administration, located in a designated capital.

Where as a 'nation' is more a kin to an area, where citizen ethnicity, culture, and history, are roughly homogeneous; an area occupied by the same 'people', who IDENTIFY as such.

(not wanting to start the debate over immigration on this thread, let us just leave this aside for now, and talk in black and white terms).

So if we examine Europe we see a mixture, in terms of states and nations. Obviously the EU is made up of 'States', in the strictest sense of the word.

Germany - A state, and arguably a 'Nation State' - granted there are sub regions within Germany but German IDENTITY is secure

Austria - A State made up of German speakers who self identify as Austrian, and have done so for hundreds of years. Therefore similarly a 'Nation State'; Austrians have not been seen as wishing to be incorporated into Germany.

But then it gets a bit more complicated. Take France and Spain. Two 'States', but within their boarders are, effectively, several different 'Nations' - Basque Country, Catalonia etc - let us also not forget the Bretons - an area within France that is sometimes entirely overlooked

Again the Netherlands and Belgium are similar - Walloon's, Dutch Flemish, Belgian Flemish etc

Now we could suggest that the barriers are merely linguistic but that is not entirely the case. Certainly not for the Basque and Catalonian regions. arguably not for the Netherlands and Belgium. These are, in my opinion, different 'Communities' therefore, technically could function as Nations in their own right.

So if we then examine the United Kingdom. Truly Unique in this discussion, for within its boarders, the UK has many different cultures, histories, and arguably 'Nations'

Scotland - a Nation with its own Proud Heritage and history, language, and culture - a Nation, but not a state
Wales - Similar, broadly speaking to the description of Scotland
Isle of Mann - technically a Crown Dependency as opposed to a Constituent Member of the UK - but similar to the above - culture, language, history, unique
Northern Ireland Like the United Kingdom itself, divided within itself. Nationalistic, Religious, cultural and identity politics, entirely divisive in terms to its own societal structure.

So where is Britain? Technically it does, and doesn't exist. The State, de Jure exists, in the form of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Norther Ireland. However who are the British people. Well they are English, Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish Citizens who add the prefix 'British' to their otherwise basic identity. But their numbers are arguably falling; British IDENTITY is falling, as several studies and articles have highlighted - and this has been reliably reported on the news

• English Nationalism is growing and arguably at the center of the Brexit debacle
• Scottish Nationalism is alive, and arguably thriving - more so now that a distinct difference in policy view (brexit), has come to light. For the first time in a long time, London and Edinburgh are ENTIRELY at odds.
• Welsh is present, and while not vocal atm, it is unique, with special emphasis on the language and culture of wales
• Northern Ireland - well we have thread after thread on the divisions within the 6 counties so i wont waste time

So in terms of Federalism, a Federal UK - would it work. I would cite the US as an example of a Federal system that works. Sure states sometimes have differing views (relgious, attitudes to LGBTQ issues Abortion, etc) , but the key factor, IDENTITY; never in doubt - ask someone from any state in the US, what they are, identity wise, and i would argue that 999/1000 would say 'American' - Americanism is an 'Ideal' and not dependent on ethnicity or culture, or historical origin.

I dare say that is not the case in the UK. The only area where people readily identify as British is Northern Ireland. And i would argue that it is more of a deliberate choice, NOT TO IDENTIFY as Irish - rather then a true allegiance to British-ness.

I think realistically, The UK has a choice.

• It either remains intact as it is today - with no further erosion of powers from the State Parliament
• Or it begins to federalize, which for me, would spell the break up of the Union. And the creation of something more a Kin to the Commonwealth, than to the US

I think once you allow more devolution, the UK will begin to break up. Once Wales, Scotland, et al, start to have the power to decide more and more, their own destiny, then Identity Politics, will take over. The question will not be, do we all follow together within the autonomous structures that we have - it will be, 'we want MORE autonomy. we don't agree, and are therefore going to seek further devolution'

In terms of the smaller constituent members of the UK, mainly English it has to be said, Federalization may allow the outliers to throw in with one of the major groups - while the closer to London one gets, the more English one identifies as

It is interesting and my response is only my personal view - if citations are needed/requested i will provide what i can - my own college back ground is International relations so i believe im on steady ground in this response - but i welcome descent as always - i am at home with a nasty flu so, i can probably do better in articulating my thoughts later in the week

liamtech wrote: »

Ok straight away, no, i am not saying that. i do not claim an expertise on individual county pride, or identity within England.

What i also claim is that i seriously doubt either of these areas would explicitly want self governing authority devolved from West Minster.

But the evidence i would suggest for the outliers being more distant from London, in their outlook on policy, is that there seemed to be a genuine pull away from England by its northern Counties -

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/15/should-north-england-join-scotland

especially during IndyRef - as the above article indicates - whether or not this is 'identity based', or a general disapproval of Southern England's dominance, i would not say - but the fact within Northern Counties, English People might prefer to be a party of an independent scotland, does support the idea that at least within the UK, distance matters.

One could not say the same of the US, a Federal system; Los Angeles is as far from Washington as you can get (leave Alaska and Hawaii aside for this) - but there is no support in LA for independence - or a difference in Identity Politics - LA is a city in the State of California -within the United States of America - and its people are American

The fact that anyone in Sheffield or Middlesborough, English Cities, would sign a petition indicating a wish to join an Independent Scotland - supports the fragility of the UK as i have outlined in my opinion. and Supports a thesis that Federalization, could lead to break up

It would not be a United States of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

It would be England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (probably the most PRO union, ANTI federalist area - and how that would resolve is another debate) - existing within a Common wealth of Great Britain

EDIT - it is an interesting difficult topic to debate but the fact that any english person, would prefer to live in a Break Away Scotland, supports at least a moderate argument that distance from center of gravity - matters