Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer Rumours/Gossip 2019/20

This will be too long for most to be bothered reading, that's fair enough . .

Your Airbag wrote: »

I'm sure Jose doesn't go into any job without lengthy discussions with the higher ups but like you said many things may not come to pass. I'm sure Jose's behavior in the later seasons of many of his clubs was never discussed in those early meetings.

So do you think Jose equally doesn't sign any contract extensions without lengthy discussions aswell ? So what exactly did he discuss with Woodward in the January he signed an extension with United? Do you think his targets for the summer and what the team needed to push on were one of the things they discussed when he was committing his own future to the club ?

You see Ive answered everything you have said in the past that you either ignore or just dont bother responding to. Im fed up going round in circles and reading what I think is quite an over simplistic appraisal of Jose that revolves around the "bad man Jose" mantra.

What is Bad Man Jose ?
I cant speak for others but when I see that posted I think its a response to people who, no matter what facts or information is provided, the response is always "yeh but Jose is toxic" (or something to that effect). It doesn't address anything other then that he can fall out badly with clubs. Its like this one trait of Jose trumps everything else and it destroys any possibility of objective discussion.

So who has he fallen out with ?

Chelsea, Madrid and United . . Are these clubs renowned for how they treat managers or how they part ways with managers on good terms ? No, they most certainly are not . . So why is Jose singled out ? Probably because he doesn't make it easy for these clubs to offload him discreetly. . It seems to be the case that when something is common in football (cynical fouling, diving, sacking managers etc) its sort of brushed aside as an accepted norm.

Does Jose leave clubs in turmoil ?

Madrid won 5 european Cups after he left, Chelsea won the league and champions league with squads he built even after he left but United supposedly need a complete rebuild. Its funny how when you look at United, they always stick out at bucking the trend in the negative.

If you really want to honestly look at Jose's tenure at United you will look at the comparison to how he left other clubs, what happened there and what has happened at United. You can also look at his career and see that United are a stain on his resume, United have been a stain on every player and manager who has joined since 2013

2nd Spot

You discount 2nd spot because it suits your argument, not because its an objective appraisal of his tenure. Only City finished above United and only one club has been able to match City in that period. Was that not a record breaking points tally by City ? But like, how can finishing 2nd any season be discounted ? I really cant understand how anybody could think that finishing second in the league is irrelevant leading up to the summer when a manager is not supported.

The league was over in January and yet Woodward was happy to extend Jose's contract, why ? This doesnt add up to scrutiny when you consider your "crap football" narrative. The club would not of extended his contract if football brand was an issue.

We finished second spot, Liverpool finished behind us and they broke world records for a defender and goalkeeper. We are told we are a club where money is no object and yet United didnt make the required signings last seasons to improve the squad. They signed Fred, who Jose himself said needed to be signed with a quality Centre half. This is a position that needed to be addressed and yet it was only done this season.

You see, I find your "bad man Jose" default setting lazy, poorly thought out and an apologetic stance to take with regards to Woodward. You can convince yourself its not, but it is a defence of sorts because it suggests there was nothing Woodward could of done to prevent a Jose Meltdown. I think Woodward/Glazers are 100% responsible for last season and the demise of Jose because they knew exactly what they were getting with him and the conditions of having him as manager. By not supporting him last summer after agreeing to whatever he asked when signing a contract extension, they wrote off our season and forced this bullsh*t rebuild that didnt have to happen.

What I believe happened was that Woodward was very happy with what Jose was doing (including the "crap football" you complain about) and the direction the club was going, they agreed on an extension to his contract and something happened between Feb and June that made Woodward balk. The only public thing i can think of is Jose's public fallout with Pogba. Ironic how many people who dont like Jose were quick to jump to Pogbas defence for being equally public when airing his dirty laundry. In many regards, you had two big egos demanding respect. That is why many of us thought Pogba was probably a significant factor in Jose getting the sack. Asides from the fact Jose has alluded to it and Pogba made his grievances public from day 1 of last season, there is no other logical reason why Woodward didnt support him last summer (when you cant work out why he gave him a contract extension and then changed his mind in the summer).

When Jose fell out at Chelsea, Hazzard was quoted years later as saying that he felt the problem was that the players standards dropped at the manager couldnt accept it. He also lamented that they didnt listen to Jose and that he would like to work with him again. In effect, Jose is a winner and accepts no substitute or second best bullsh*t from players or clubs. Every fan knew we needed alot of strengthening last summer to continue the upward trend, yet some wanted Jose to accept what fans themselves knew to be bullsh*t. We needed strenghening and yet some fans used it as an opportunity to ignore that issue and convince themselves that Woodward (the man who had extended Jose's contract less then a few months previous) was making the right call. .

This was known before Woodward hired him, Joses brand of football was known before he was hired, Jose’s work with youth was known, Joses public fallouts were known before he was hired and Joses demands were agreed before he was hired and his contract was extended. As soon as Woodward broke agreements last summer all bets were off. Some people were willing to accept last summer, not because we didnt need stronger players, but purely because they didnt like Jose and presumed any signings made would somehow prop him up.

Last summer , Woodward ruined our season by effectively not having the balls to sack Jose but choosing not to back him. Woodward ruined last season, not Jose. Jose's heart was not in it last season , which was confirmed by United fan entourage who usually follow the club on tour and confirmed that immediatley last summer Jose's demeanor and attitude had changed. So as far as I can see/tell, Jose didnt want to be at the club the whole season and this was reflected in our performances and results that were like chalk and cheese from last season to the season before.

So yes, the way we ended up playing last season, getting Maguire might not of made much of a difference, but had Jose gotten what he wanted (which I presume was discussed and agreed only a few months before when he agreed his contract extension), then I believe his heart would of been in it and we wouldnt of seen such a poor dislplay last season . I genuinley think he would of continued the progress that happened. 2nd spot is progress. Concurrent qualificaion for champions league is progress relative to what we had gotten used to. I think players knew last season that he didn’t want to be there and we know what happens to every manager when they lose the dressingroom.

I dont believe you have the capacity to discuss Jose's tenure at United in a remotely informative manner because you are too entrenched in "the bad man" narrative that doesnt tell the majority of the story. We dont learn anything by blaming him and in many regards his time at the club was yet again further evidence how badly is being run. He has given us a great insight into the poor decision making of the club and how a clueless accountant has massive influence over decisions he is not qualified to make. One consistency in 7 poor seasons has been woodward who is the most influential person in a footballing capacity in that time.

And you do regularly accuse other people of doing what you do all the time. I lose my head and sometimes just give up conversing. Anybody who knows me, whether they like me or not, knows that my issue is not that I lack the capacity to respond. What I will concede is that I can go headstrong into a argument and sometimes miss things that are fair and sometimes misinterpret points or posters. But generally speaking I clarify exactly why I feel a certain way. Usually this is met with the phrase "mental gymnastics" or by just quoting one line, of an extensive post, and ignoring everything else.

We have had all these discussions before and discussed all these points. I considered whether or not to respond, but your "wont even respond/converse" bullsh*t encouraged me to point it out that the reason was simply because you are incapable of digesting any information that you just dont want to acknowledge. I do accept Jose had a meltdown last season and that he ultimately had to go, but I dont accept it had to happen and feel that the issue, as all our issues have been since Woodward took over, started from the top and we still have to suffer that same issue. Another rebuild, another f**king rebuild .. . FFS, Woodward is some cowboy that anybody still thinks he deserves to be humoured.

Your Airbag wrote: »

I wont quote the whole thing as it will only annoy others but its an overly long cherry picked load of nonesense that amounts to nothing but making excuses for your sacked hero.

I will address the two most delusional parts though.

The fact that you somehow credit Jose for Madrid having won 5 European trophies AFTER he left is at best laughable, and at worst, well I wont say. Ancelotti comes in straight after Jose's departure, sells Ozil and signs Bale, changes the formation to 4-3-3 and deviates immediately from Jose's system, ADM in particular excels in this system and they win the UCL (something Jose could not muster with all his tie and money) and Copa del Ray in his first season. Kroos is signed the next summer and after Ancelotti departs and a brief stint from Rafa Zidane goes on to win the UCL three times in a row signing no one of real note along the way.

It was a departure from Joses methods that gave Madrid such success, all of this happening immediately after he left is enough of an indication to any rational person that he was underachieving there but you just spin it 180.

Crediting Jose is someway for what he failed to do because other managers did it after he left is garbage. Madrid have always been a buy big now club and dont have much time for rebuilds, Jose bought big and failed to win the UCL. There aren't many more things as self dis-crediting you could have said then this which essentially amounts to "even his failings are a success, if someone wins something after he leaves". Excuse making at is worst.

As for managers not parting teams on good terms its a modern part of the game, PR defenses from both club and manager but again you draw a simplistic comparison as an excuse. Jose doesn't depart like other managers. now does he? This is the man that bullied a female doctor out of a club, stuck his finger in an assistant managers eye and regularly slates his own players in front of the camera.

Your continuous ignoring of this aspect of the guy, not only ignoring but painting his failures as paving the way for the next managers success shows how blinkered and beyond reason you are about the man. I'll decline from engaging with you about him again as that was a self-discrediting pile of waffle.

Ah, accusing me of cherry picking, thats rich, but unlike you , I will address exactly what you are saying.

I never credited Jose with being responsible for winning 5 champions leagues. I am responding to people who say "Jose leaves clubs in turmoil" or imply that he leaves clubs in worse state than when he joined. Its clear this is bullsh*t and that was my point on Madrid and Chelsea, not that he was responsible for their success. It also makes a mockery of people saying "his signings" are one of the reason why United needs a rebuild. Well why dont all his other clubs need rebuilds when he leaves ? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and not accuse you of misrepresenting a point I made.

And in terms of managers parting ways on good terms, what difference does it make if they are public like Jose or quieter ? What difference to chelsea was it the way Jose or Conte left ? The net result was the same, perhaps Jose hurts fans pride because he leaves acrimoniously, but thats about it. Really what is the difference other then Jose sells papers and some people lap up the drama and try to make it into something its not ? Its irrelevant unless you want it to be an issue.

In terms of the Physio, what has that to do with anything ? You accuse me of changing goalposts and then you just throw that into the mix.

Ive responded to your post directly, youve just done exactly what I said you do. Ignore anything you dont like or dont want to really discuss and cherry pick (ironicly) points that dont really add up to much in the context of this discussion.