Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Yeah_Right · 14-11-2019 02:03PM

xalot wrote: »

The state pathologist said there was 'penetration or attempted penetration' with an object that could not be identified. Hence the aggravated sexual sexual assault charge.

That's what I thought. So there wasn't evidence of rape. I think if it was a "weird" "loner" boy that they had decided to kill instead of Ana, they might have done the same. I still believe Ana's gender wasn't a (major) factor in her murder.

tritium · 14-11-2019 02:04PM

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm not sure that's a great argument for there not being a problem with male violence - could a 6 foot muscle bound man use it as a defence in why he killed a skinny 15 year old for instance? "Oh I didn't mean to but he was actually more violent than me, just less effective"?

The other problem with your claim is that women don't kill as many babies and small children as men do, and yet their physical size is not what's stopping them.

You seem to miss the uncomfortable fact that in cases of parental homicide of a child women are statistically more likely than men to be the killer.

volchitsa · 14-11-2019 02:19PM

tritium wrote: »

You seem to miss the uncomfortable fact that in cases of parental homicide of a child women are statistically more likely than men to be the killer.

Not quite that simple - women are statistically more likely to be the main caregivers. When you take that into account, basically male caregivers are far more likely to kill or harm the children they are looking after than female caregivers.

What you're doing there is the same as saying that white people in Ireland are more dangerous than black people because they commit the majority of crimes. Or Catholics compared to Protestants or Jews.

tritium · 14-11-2019 02:23PM

volchitsa wrote: »

Not quite that simple - women are statistically more likely to be the main caregivers. When you take that into account, basically male caregivers are far more likely to kill or harm the children they are looking after than female caregivers.

What you're doing there is the same as saying that white people in Ireland are more dangerous than black people because they commit the majority of crimes. Or Catholics compared to Protestants or Jews.

Eh no actually, even though it would be a nice straw man it’s still a straw man. The statistics are clear here and basically completely disprove your original assertion

volchitsa · 14-11-2019 02:25PM

tritium wrote: »

Eh no actually, even though it would be a nice straw man it’s still a straw man. The statistics are clear here and basically completely disprove your original assertion

No, they really don't. And you obviously don't understand what a straw man is either.

tritium · 14-11-2019 03:07PM

volchitsa wrote: »

No, they really don't. And you obviously don't understand what a straw man is either.

Tell you what, read the meta analysis for yourself, plenty of other studies out there too . I really can’t be arsed when people just want to parrot ideology against data based evidence

https://bmjpaedsopen.bmj.com/content/1/1/e000112

KWAG2019 · 14-11-2019 05:00PM

I'm dipping back in after a day or two. The article I quoted has stirred a debate alright. Leaving the heat it generated aside there has been some light too. I still think most people here accept that Ana was murdered because she was a girl who was perceived to be isolated, bullied, "slutty", a "weirdo" and the best target for the violent heterosexual fantasies of one of those convicted of her murder. I cannot separate the violence of her death and heterosexual assault from her gender. It simply does not fit the facts as we know them and as the court convicted.

The broader question raised about violence, male on female violence, male on male, female on male has had a lot of discussion. The stats from Womens Aid I posted were answered to a certain extent by stats from a COSC report. Even today on Twitter I saw a comment from a DV counsellor who mentioned that one of the male victims they dealt with had been a serving soldier in the SAS. There is a lot of food for thought in all that discussion. The last stats I saw posted here again pointed to the role of females in DV, with mothers as the main killers in deaths of children under 1.

What interests me after all that is how society can build a consensus on the way forward in addressing violence; in this thread, violence of a savage and unprecedented type including heterosexual assault of a 14 year old girl by two 13 year old boys. Lots of answers around anti bullying and phones access and porn access. The broader question remains and it needs a unifying overarching theoretical approach to avoid paralysis around polarized opinion. All in my humble opinion. And probably for a new thread somewhere.

ittakestwo · 14-11-2019 06:44PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I'm dipping back in after a day or two. The article I quoted has stirred a debate alright. Leaving the heat it generated aside there has been some light too. I still think most people here accept that Ana was murdered because she was a girl who was perceived to be isolated, bullied, "slutty", a "weirdo" and the best target for the violent heterosexual fantasies of one of those convicted of her murder. I cannot separate the violence of her death and heterosexual assault from her gender. It simply does not fit the facts as we know them and as the court convicted.

The broader question raised about violence, male on female violence, male on male, female on male has had a lot of discussion. The stats from Womens Aid I posted were answered to a certain extent by stats from a COSC report. Even today on Twitter I saw a comment from a DV counsellor who mentioned that one of the male victims they dealt with had been a serving soldier in the SAS. There is a lot of food for thought in all that discussion. The last stats I saw posted here again pointed to the role of females in DV, with mothers as the main killers in deaths of children under 1.

What interests me after all that is how society can build a consensus on the way forward in addressing violence; in this thread, violence of a savage and unprecedented type including heterosexual assault of a 14 year old girl by two 13 year old boys. Lots of answers around anti bullying and phones access and porn access. The broader question remains and it needs a unifying overarching theoretical approach to avoid paralysis around polarized opinion. All in my humble opinion. And probably for a new thread somewhere.

The crime was a murder, not a ''heterosexual assault'' The victims and perpetrators gender is irrelevant to a murder as both genders can be perpetrators and victims of murder. BTW do you believe Jamie Bulgers murder was a ''homosexual assault'' ?

These type of murders are carried out by people who are very sick in the head. maybe the question should be, how/why do people get that way?

political analyst · 14-11-2019 07:00PM

Can the media apply to have A's and B's anonymity lifted when they reach the age of 18?

The following case indicates that anonymity for juvenile criminals can be lifted in some cases.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cork-cork-toddler-hit-and-run-teen-jailed-4892274-Nov2019/

KWAG2019 · 14-11-2019 07:07PM

The crime was a murder, not a ''heterosexual assault'

I still think most people here accept that Ana was murdered

The victims and perpetrators gender is irrelevant to a murder as both genders can be perpetrators and victims of murder.

In terms of the legal definition of murder this is correct. I am not discussing the legal definition. I am responding to the last few pages of discussion here.

BTW do you believe Jamie Bulgers murder was a ''homosexual assault''

I don't know if his murder involved an element of sexual assault but if so, as it was carried out by boys, it can be accurately described as homosexual assault. Said accuracy might not be compatible with the definitions used in English law at the time but I'm sure those interested in such definitions can repair to the Legal discussion forum for a definitive answer.

These type of murders are carried out by people who are very sick in the head. maybe the question should be, how/why do people get that way?

AFAIK the psychological reports found no evidence of mental illness in either of the convicted criminals. That said I think most lay people would unhesitatingly say that Boy A is "very sick in the head".

I think that is a very good question and part of any considered response to this.

volchitsa · 14-11-2019 07:55PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

p
I don't know if his murder involved an element of sexual assault but if so, as it was carried out by boys, it can be accurately described as homosexual assault.

Yes there was quite a severe sexual assault involved, and one of the two killers is homosexual. https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2006/03/27/gay-groups-voice-concern-over-bulger-killers-outing/
Now perhaps that's just a coincidence, but I suspect not.

KWAG2019 · 14-11-2019 08:17PM

volchitsa wrote: »

Yes there was quite a severe sexual assault involved, and one of the two killers is homosexual. https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2006/03/27/gay-groups-voice-concern-over-bulger-killers-outing/
Now perhaps that's just a coincidence, but I suspect not.

A general question: is there ever a comparative exploration done between cases?

seenitall · 14-11-2019 08:18PM

ittakestwo wrote: »

The crime was a murder, not a ''heterosexual assault''

What?? Why is A on the on the sexual offenders' register then, and why was he convicted for sexual assault, as well as murder..?

KWAG2019 · 14-11-2019 08:23PM

seenitall wrote: »

What?? Why is A on the on the sexual offenders' register then, and why was he convicted for sexual assault, as well as murder..?

I think to be fair that the poster is pointing to the legal terms of the convictions ie murder and sexual assault. We all know those obviously. The legal definition of the convictions isn’t the last word however.

volchitsa · 14-11-2019 08:30PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

A general question: is there ever a comparative exploration done between cases?

No idea. Studies are certainly carried out into crimes, and can be consulted, but I don't know if their results are directly applied in courts very often. I think it's more university research into specific domaines like psychology or whatever.

ittakestwo · 14-11-2019 08:40PM

political analyst wrote: »

Can the media apply to have A's and B's anonymity lifted when they reach the age of 18?

The following case indicates that anonymity for juvenile criminals can be lifted in some cases.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cork-cork-toddler-hit-and-run-teen-jailed-4892274-Nov2019/

Probably not as the crime was convicted when they were children. There was a Senior Counsel on the RTE documentary explaining the difference between what is in public's interest in knowing about a crime and that the public are interested in a crime. The public are definitely interested in this crime and many want to know their identities but it is not necessary for the public to know the identity of two children who commit a crime..... apparently.

seenitall · 14-11-2019 09:13PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I think to be fair that the poster is pointing to the legal terms of the convictions ie murder and sexual assault. We all know those obviously. The legal definition of the convictions isn’t the last word however.

Considering Ana was sexually assaulted prior to or around the time of being murdered, I find it highly disingenuous of people to say her gender didn't matter to A. Would you say that about any other rapist and murderer, or is it only this one that gets the "gender doesn't matter here", "he just wanted to kill anyone, it could have been a boy, equally" attitude? That sounds a lot like plain denial of reality to me.

One eyed Jack · 14-11-2019 10:23PM

seenitall wrote: »

Considering Ana was sexually assaulted prior to or around the time of being murdered, I find it highly disingenuous of people to say her gender didn't matter to A. Would you say that about any other rapist and murderer, or is it only this one that gets the "gender doesn't matter here", "he just wanted to kill anyone, it could have been a boy, equally" attitude? That sounds a lot like plain denial of reality to me.

I agree with you that it is absolutely disingenuous of anyone to suggest that gender doesn’t matter here, but at the same time, I think it’s irresponsible of anyone to suggest that gender was the sole motivating factor here either. That’s equally a denial of the reality that the only people who know what their motivations were, are the people who committed the act.

To the best of my knowledge, they never explained their motivations, so to use any particular trait of either the victim or the perpetrator to speculate about their motivations is irresponsible and frankly just crass opportunism. The professor could have made their arguments without using the circumstances in this particular case, but there wouldn’t have been as much attention paid to their opinion had they not associated their opinions with this particular case.

To suggest that Ana was murdered by boys because she was a girl isn’t a fact, it’s an opinion, and amounts to nothing more than idle and irresponsible speculation used to present a particular narrative. Quite a long way away from any facts when the reality is that their motivations remain known only to the boys themselves, in this particular case.

volchitsa · 14-11-2019 10:30PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I agree with you that it is absolutely disingenuous of anyone to suggest that gender doesn’t matter here, but at the same time, I think it’s irresponsible of anyone to suggest that gender was the sole motivating factor here either. That’s equally a denial of the reality that the only people who know what their motivations were, are the people who committed the act.

To suggest that Ana was murdered by boys because she was a girl isn’t a fact, it’s an opinion, and amounts to nothing more than idle and irresponsible speculation used to present a particular narrative.

Except of course that's not what anyone on here was saying. Disagreeing with the claim that gender was irrelevant is not the same as saying that gender was the only factor, nor that she was killed purely because she was a girl.

Do try not to put up straw men like that, Jack, there's a good chap.

seenitall · 14-11-2019 10:31PM

Again I ask, would you say of any other murderer whose sperm and evidence of sexual assault have been found on the victim's body, that the motivation for the attack is an unknown, and can only be a matter for our speculation?

One eyed Jack · 14-11-2019 10:36PM

volchitsa wrote: »

Except of course that's not what anyone was saying. Disagreeing with the claim that gender was irrelevant is not the same as saying that gender was the only factor, nor that she was killed purely because she was a girl.

Do try not to put up straw men like that, Jack, there's a good chap.

It’s the headline of the article we’re discussing?

Ana Kriégel was murdered by boys because she was a girl

Like many others, I have spent the week reading about and listening to analysis in the wake of Ana Kriégel’s murder. I presumed and indeed expected that someone else would state the blindingly obvious, but as yet they haven’t. So here I am. I will say it. Ana Kriégel was murdered by boys because she was a girl.

One eyed Jack · 14-11-2019 10:38PM

seenitall wrote: »

Again I ask, would you say of any other murderer whose sperm and evidence of sexual assault have been found on the victim's body, that the motivation for the attack is an unknown, and can only be a matter for our speculation?

I would, yes.

ittakestwo · 14-11-2019 10:42PM

seenitall wrote: »

Considering Ana was sexually assaulted prior to or around the time of being murdered, I find it highly disingenuous of people to say her gender didn't matter to A. Would you say that about any other rapist and murderer, or is it only this one that gets the "gender doesn't matter here", "he just wanted to kill anyone, it could have been a boy, equally" attitude? That sounds a lot like plain denial of reality to me.

The investigators stated that there is no known motive for the murder and are still clueless to why the murder happened. Surprisingly the perpetrators got checked for mental problems and there did not seem to be any.

They found no motive for the murder so its not right to say that the victims gender did matter as nobody knows what the motives were. I think alot cant accept not knowing the motive of such a tragic murder.

political analyst · 14-11-2019 10:43PM

ittakestwo wrote: »

Probably not as the crime was convicted when they were children. There was a Senior Counsel on the RTE documentary explaining the difference between what is in public's interest in knowing about a crime and that the public are interested in a crime. The public are definitely interested in this crime and many want to know their identities but it is not necessary for the public to know the identity of two children who commit a crime..... apparently.

Are you sure it was an RTÉ programme?

Does the law say that the identities of juvenile criminals can never be disclosed?

political analyst · 14-11-2019 10:45PM

ittakestwo wrote: »

The investigators stated that there is no known motive for the murder and are still clueless to why the murder happened. Surprisingly the perpetrators got checked for mental problems and there did not seem to be any.

They found no motive for the murder so its not right to say that the victims gender did matter as nobody knows what the motives were. I think alot cant accept not knowing the motive of such a tragic murder.

The fact that Boy A charged with and convicted of aggravated sexual assault as well as murder indicates the motive, doesn't it?

volchitsa · 14-11-2019 10:49PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s the headline of the article we’re discussing?

Ana Kriégel was murdered by boys because she was a girl

Like many others, I have spent the week reading about and listening to analysis in the wake of Ana Kriégel’s murder. I presumed and indeed expected that someone else would state the blindingly obvious, but as yet they haven’t. So here I am. I will say it. Ana Kriégel was murdered by boys because she was a girl.

She didn't say gender was the sole motivating factor, you said that.

And the discussion on here has been from posters saying that gender was irrelevant, which it clearly was not. Though TBF I missed that point out when I pressed post, and added it straight after, so you may not have seen it.

(As for the article itself, it's basically correct. That's opinion if you like, of course, but then we have no certain insight into any murderer's motivation, even when they give one. That doesn't stop us from having some fairly clear notions all the same. The idea that the victim here could just as easily have been a boy, as some posters have explicitly claimed, is - IMO - implausible.)

One eyed Jack · 14-11-2019 10:50PM

political analyst wrote: »

The fact that Boy A charged with and convicted of aggravated sexual assault as well as murder indicates the motive, doesn't it?

No, it doesn’t. It indicates the nature of the acts for which he was charged and found guilty. His motivation for committing the acts remains unknown.

seenitall · 14-11-2019 10:53PM

political analyst wrote: »

The fact that Boy A charged with and convicted of aggravated sexual assault as well as murder indicates the motive, doesn't it?

Yes, that's the way I see it.

political analyst · 14-11-2019 10:55PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, it doesn’t. It indicates the nature of the acts for which he was charged and found guilty. His motivation for committing the acts remains unknown.

Considering that Boy A sexually assaulted Ana as well as murdering her, how can his motive not be sexual?

ittakestwo · 14-11-2019 10:56PM

political analyst wrote: »

The fact that Boy A charged with and convicted of aggravated sexual assault as well as murder indicates the motive, doesn't it?

No, we don't know the motive for the murder

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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