Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Shefwedfan · 14-11-2019 5:11pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

The last point is fair. Cronin was terrible against Italy but some of the issues are well known such as the Marmion thing. Joe didn't get along with him like he didn't with a few others. McCloskey, Zebo all not his type of player in every sense there was others i have heard as well. As trimble said if you didn't play along in camp schmidt it was a very unpleasant place. And unforgiving. fair enough. He never really forgave TOD for not touring that summer. He didn't cut them completely but he never gave them a shot. And some of it is unforgivable, such as McCLoskey's exclusion.

For me personally though i want my rugby players doing more than the basics. its why Furlong is so good. Porter the same. Why Healy easily took back the jersey from a so so carrier in McGrath. This is what is so exciting about Kelleher, excellent basics and an impressive running game.

I disagree with Kearney but i won't go there. He did well to come back, was excellent in parts of 2018. But in the World Cup he wasn't good enough. He got a pass, as usual like ROG did in 2011 and one or two in 2015. Larmour should have started, along with Conway. Would have still lost the match but we'd be better for it.

All rumours and no facts.....sorry but saying Joe didn’t play someone because he didn’t like them is rubbish

14-11-2019 5:23pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

All rumours and no facts.....sorry but saying Joe didn’t play someone because he didn’t like them is rubbish

Surely there is some evidence of some players not willing to fit into his intense regime. You could call that "Joe didn't like them", yeah for good reason, they wouldn't do what the coach asked of them. Zebo for one. But surely you want a head coach to have an intense regime. And you want players to follow the said regime.

readyohyeah · 14-11-2019 5:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely there is some evidence of some players not willing to fit into his intense regime. You could call that "Joe didn't like them", yeah for good reason, they wouldn't do what the coach asked of them. Zebo for one. But surely you want a head coach to have an intense regime. And you want players to follow the said regime.

The coaches regime ended in failure at the biggest tournament in world rugby. Twice. We need to look into why it failed and learn from it.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 5:29pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Who on Earth should Robin Copeland be playing instead of?

I’m sorry but he was never international class and I can’t take you seriously if you’re throwing his name among those who can feel hard done by.

TOH, Copeland (lol) and TOD are not as good as any of the other options. For all the good TOH can do in open space his basics are piss poor. Copeland I’ve already touched on and TOD was stuck behind Leavy, VDF, SOB and Jordi Murphy at 7. He had no luck with injuries.

Zebo left. He chose to leave. His ‘exile’ is completely self-imposed.

Nobody of course! But there was certain characters i know Schmidt had no time for. Cronin was one.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 5:31pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

All rumours and no facts.....sorry but saying Joe didn’t play someone because he didn’t like them is rubbish

https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/rugby-union/50404826

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-rugby/i-understood-why-i-was-left-out-of-irish-squad-odonnell-35012034.html

https://punditarena.com/rugby/smcmahon/zebo-joe-schmidt-tricky-position/

and the incident which can't be discussed i presume.

So not proof which can never be proffered but strong evidence.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 5:35pm

aloooof wrote: »

Having a hooker who can't throw into the line out or scrummage is far, far more damaging.

Yeah really worked out for us in Japan didn't it

aloooof · 14-11-2019 5:37pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yeah really worked out for us in Japan didn't it

You really think picking Cronin instead of Best for that game would've changed the result?

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 5:37pm

aloooof wrote: »

Ah, stop. Every coach is going to pick who they think is the best selection. They're under too much pressure for results.

The players you've listed as hard-done by for selection all played during the most successful period of Irish rugby. It's not like we greatly suffered because of their omissions.

Do you have an exact quote of what he said? Cos I would wager it's a lot more nuanced than what you're claiming.

Best did decline during the last year, but you're completely mis-representing how good a player and captain he was for us for a long period.

Honestly, a lot of your posts are completely scatter-gun and almost impossible to follow.

Yeah you think so? Not even going to bother responding to that stuff like that makes me wonder why i bother. some of you lads are so deeply ingrained in arguing against the reality, you're drinking the coolaide,in fact drowning in it, there is no point really.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 5:41pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Who on Earth should Robin Copeland be playing instead of?

I’m sorry but he was never international class and I can’t take you seriously if you’re throwing his name among those who can feel hard done by.

TOH, Copeland (lol) and TOD are not as good as any of the other options. For all the good TOH can do in open space his basics are piss poor. Copeland I’ve already touched on and TOD was stuck behind Leavy, VDF, SOB and Jordi Murphy at 7. He had no luck with injuries.

Zebo left. He chose to leave. His ‘exile’ is completely self-imposed.

He wasn't of course. The lad is a good player, not an option at all but i was using him as an example of how you have to conform in the squad. but so far away from the Joebot that an Irish player must be. Once he was in camp Joe immediately knew that it wasn't going to work. cronin is also a character. Joe doesn't really fancy "characters". I also know he told Zebo to stop with the Z thing. I know people involved at Leinster, in Ireland.

anyway, whatever.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 5:43pm

aloooof wrote: »

You really think picking Cronin instead of Best for that game would've changed the result?

Best was a drowning man in the Japan game.

And you say i'm scattergun?

aloooof · 14-11-2019 5:44pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

He wasn't of course. The lad is a good player, not an option but so far away from the Joebot that an Irish player must be. Once he was in camp Joe immediately knew that it wasn't going to work. cronin is a character. Joe doesn't really fancy "characters". I also know he told Zebo to stop with the Z thing.

anyway, whatever.

So now you're criticising Schmidt for not picking a player (in Copeland) that you're admitting isn't / wasn't good enough to be selected??

aloooof · 14-11-2019 5:44pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Best was a drowning man in the Japan game.

I'm not saying he played well. But he wasn't the difference between winning and losing. Neither would Cronin have been.

aloooof · 14-11-2019 5:46pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yeah you think so? Not even going to bother responding to that stuff like that makes me wonder why i bother. some of you lads are so deeply ingrained in arguing against the reality, you're drinking the coolaide,in fact drowning in it, there is no point really.

Pretty ironic, you saying I'm arguing against the reality when all I've asked is for evidence to back-up your claims, like for example:

1) Centrally contracted players had clauses guaranteed selection, (Happily, you've backed down on that).

2) Jerry Flannery saying it should be the same team.

I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 5:55pm

aloooof wrote: »

So now you're criticising Schmidt for not picking a player (in Copeland) that you're admitting isn't / wasn't good enough to be selected??

No i'm not criticizing him. I'm arguing about why Cronin wasn't selected mainly. I know that the two of them didn't really get on. I used Copeland to argue about Joe and characters. Copelands a gas lad, well liked but clearly not Joe's cup of tea, no matter his quality. He's not good enough for Connacht clearly. He hit his ceiling.

All i'm saying i think Its quite clear he doesn't really like "characters" - Zebo another one. Thats all. And you could argue it extends to character when playing as well. McCloskey throws a loose offload in twickers and basically never plays again.

So the knub of the argument is that Cronins non selection comes down to

A) his throwing

Bests central contract and captaincy
C) the issues

So its not as simple saying "he can't throw"

Hayes couldn't scrummage but Mike Ross was kicking his heels for years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAzXqy2ae9A

Shefwedfan · 14-11-2019 5:55pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yeah you think so? Not even going to bother responding to that stuff like that makes me wonder why i bother. some of you lads are so deeply ingrained in arguing against the reality, you're drinking the coolaide,in fact drowning in it, there is no point really.

If you don't want to bother it's ok.....

Shefwedfan · 14-11-2019 6:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely there is some evidence of some players not willing to fit into his intense regime. You could call that "Joe didn't like them", yeah for good reason, they wouldn't do what the coach asked of them. Zebo for one. But surely you want a head coach to have an intense regime. And you want players to follow the said regime.

According to the poster they are saying Joe only played people he "liked" which is bulls**t. Are we trying to say since 2011 and all the players for Ireland and Leinster Joe just happened to find 100's of played he liked but just 3-4 he didn't???? :P:P:P

Shefwedfan · 14-11-2019 6:01pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

No i'm not criticizing him. I'm arguing about why Cronin wasn't selected mainly. I know that the two of them didn't really get on. I used Copeland to argue about Joe and characters. Copelands a gas lad, well liked but clearly not Joe's cup of tea, no matter his quality. He's not good enough for Connacht clearly. He hit his ceiling.

All i'm saying i think Its quite clear he doesn't really like "characters" - Zebo another one. Thats all. And you could argue it extends to character when playing as well. McCloskey throws a loose offload in twickers and basically never plays again.

So the knub of the argument is that Cronins non selection comes down to

A) his throwing
Bests central contract and captaincy
C) the issues

So its not as simple saying "he can't throw"

Hayes couldn't scrummage but Mike Ross was kicking his heels for years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAzXqy2ae9A

I think you need to put on a tin foil hat......

14-11-2019 6:02pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

No i'm not criticizing him. I'm arguing about why Cronin wasn't selected mainly. I know that the two of them didn't really get on. I used Copeland to argue about Joe and characters. Copelands a gas lad, well liked but clearly not Joe's cup of tea, no matter his quality. He's not good enough for Connacht clearly. He hit his ceiling.

All i'm saying i think Its quite clear he doesn't really like "characters" - Zebo another one. Thats all. And you could argue it extends to character when playing as well. McCloskey throws a loose offload in twickers and basically never plays again.

So the knub of the argument is that Cronins non selection comes down to

A) his throwing
Bests central contract and captaincy
C) the issues

So its not as simple saying "he can't throw"

Hayes couldn't scrummage but Mike Ross was kicking his heels for years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAzXqy2ae9A

Would you drop this central contract nonsense. You've admitted yourself that its highly unlikely.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 6:02pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If you don't want to bother it's ok.....

hilarious

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 6:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you drop this central contract nonsense. You've admitted yourself that its highly unlikely.

I said the clause is unlikely. But the central contract itself is an important part of who and why the person gets selected.

Provide a counter argument apart from saying it nonsense. Why was a 37 year old hooker playing in the 2019 World Cup? Why was Simon Zebo only offered a provincial one, while Tommy Bowe was in the squad right up to his injury? go on...

This place anybody offers a counter argument gets shouted down. Or we have people like Venjur saying how he avoided the forum because it didn't align with his views. Nonsense, bizarre, troll, wum, take your pick. Some of you lads should take a peak on other forums to see what is really being said.

Anyway lads you'd think some of you's who were proven completely wrong would wind the necks in, just a tad.

I look forward to more details emerging soon and Aki moving on but getting selected.

Shefwedfan · 14-11-2019 6:08pm

Zebo done a interview many many many years ago. Before Joe had even taken the Ireland job saying he wanted to play in France at some stage of his career.

So the Joe made Zebo move to France is more BS.....he always wanted to play in France, at his age he was going to get the best money before his peak dropped, he also got an extra big chuck in wages as he wouldn't be playing International games....

With all that could we give up the Zebo for Ireland cr*p.

aloooof · 14-11-2019 6:10pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

I said the clause is unlikely. But the central contract itself is an important part of who and why the person gets selected.

Provide a counter argument apart from saying it nonsense.

I've provided one twice already. Jack McGrath. He was on a central contract last season but Kilcoyne got selected ahead of him for the 6 Nations squads.

So there you go. Do you now see it's nonsense?

Faugheen · 14-11-2019 6:13pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

I said the clause is unlikely. But the central contract itself is an important part of who and why the person gets selected.

Provide a counter argument apart from saying it nonsense. Why was a 37 year old hooker playing in the 2019 World Cup? Why was Simon Zebo only offered a provincial one, while Tommy Bowe was in the squad right up to his injury? go on...

This place anybody offers a counter argument gets shouted down. Or we have people like Venjur saying how he avoided the forum because it didn't align with his views.

Anyway lads you'd think some of you's who were proven completely wrong would wind the necks in.

You’re actually tying yourself up in knots here.

Best was offered a central contract because he was still our best hooker by a mile at the time. In the last two years alternatives have been given chances and none of them were anywhere near good enough.

Why should Zebo have gotten a central contract? He was never our first choice in anything and he flattered to deceive for Ireland. He’d get nowhere near the team now but yet you think he should be on a central deal? This coming from the same person who is bitching and moaning about the players on a central contract already? You honestly have no consistency in your arguments.

I’ve had numerous arguments here with aloof, Venjur, awec and whoever you’re having yourself. Your playing-the-victim shtick doesn’t work. Nobody is stopping you putting forward a counter argument but you better be able to back it up. So far all you’ve done is whinge about the central contracts, ask why an average player was never offered one, bring up Robin Copeland for some bizarre reason and single out Best and Kearney for criticism when none of those in competition put up their hand to take the jersey off them (until the RWC in Larmour’s case).

Stop playing the victim and make a coherent point and people will take you seriously.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 6:16pm

aloooof wrote: »

I've provided one twice already. Jack McGrath. He was on a central contract last season but Kilcoyne got selected ahead of him for the 6 Nations squads.

So there you go. Do you now see it's nonsense?

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-eight-players-left-on-irish-rugbys-central-contract-hit-list-and-how-the-irfu-plan-to-pay-for-them/

no i don't. you have cited one example and its one of the curious ones as well. Props could be considered a different level. Look at Furlongs money

Shefwedfan · 14-11-2019 6:17pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

I said the clause is unlikely. But the central contract itself is an important part of who and why the person gets selected.

Provide a counter argument apart from saying it nonsense. Why was a 37 year old hooker playing in the 2019 World Cup? Why was Simon Zebo only offered a provincial one, while Tommy Bowe was in the squad right up to his injury? go on...

This place anybody offers a counter argument gets shouted down. Or we have people like Venjur saying how he avoided the forum because it didn't align with his views. Nonsense, bizarre, troll, wum, take your pick. Some of you lads should take a peak on other forums to see what is really being said.

Anyway lads you'd think some of you's who were proven completely wrong would wind the necks in, just a tad.

I look forward to more details emerging soon and Aki moving on but getting selected.

I am on other forum, not the same nonsense you are posting here on a regular occurrence. You seem to be bitter about the whole IRFU for some reason.

Maybe if you are so bitter about it then for your health it would be better to watch another sport.

Nobody can prove you wrong, because it is pub talk rubbish. Unless a player come on here and tells you it a bunch of lies.

I am glad on the Gatland interview he mentioned that players have now given up looking at social media after a few years of looking at it.

Aki moves, Aki won't play. Simple as that. He isn't World Class as you pointed out and then tried to back track on it. He isn't even World Class in terms of Ireland. Henshaw and Ringrose are better if they both could stay fit, Farrell is exceptional player as well. I would even say Farrell could be better.

Also younger players will come up and push for selection. It will be a huge loss for Connacht but it was pointed out to me recently, in a pub, that the feeling when Lam left was that Aki wasn't happy. He posted something on twitter if I remember. Aki signed and then Lam left.

If he goes, best of luck to him!!! I hope he makes a huge chuck of money

Podge_irl · 14-11-2019 6:18pm

Pretty impressive for such a disliked player to amass 72 caps.

Cronin is not, and never has been, consistent or competent enough at the core duties of playing hooker. It was decided to take a chance on Best managing to keep his form up for another year as the other options simply were not rated. It didn't pay off, but none of the other options would have been much of an improvement.

I don't know what the hell Copeland has to do with anything. Man wouldn't have been within an arses's roar of the squad under anyone.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 6:19pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I am on other forum, not the same nonsense you are posting here on a regular occurrence. You seem to be bitter about the whole IRFU for some reason.

Maybe if you are so bitter about it then for your health it would be better to watch another sport.

Nobody can prove you wrong, because it is pub talk rubbish. Unless a player come on here and tells you it a bunch of lies.

I am glad on the Gatland interview he mentioned that players have now given up looking at social media after a few years of looking at it.

Aki moves, Aki won't play. Simple as that. He isn't World Class as you pointed out and then tried to back track on it. He isn't even World Class in terms of Ireland. Henshaw and Ringrose are better if they both could stay fit, Farrell is exceptional player as well. I would even say Farrell could be better.

Also younger players will come up and push for selection. It will be a huge loss for Connacht but it was pointed out to me recently, in a pub, that the feeling when Lam left was that Aki wasn't happy. He posted something on twitter if I remember. Aki signed and then Lam left.

If he goes, best of luck to him!!! I hope he makes a huge chuck of money

Will you please stop you have been posting nonsense yourself all world cup. Theres nothing bitter about it i know some of the players and people involved. One person even told me like yourself i was talking **** basically. Fair enough but they are involved i respect that. I don't respect people talking others down constantly, yet offer nothing themselves. Just happy with the status quo. Even though, like i said they have been proved wrong.

Farrell is better i agree. I have no great interest in whether he stays or goes. It will melt alot of heads. In the project side, the central contract nonsense, the arrogance around our system etc. I hope Aki goes it will blow it all open. Sure didn't someone post a rumour here that Farrell was looking at this "law". It wouldn't surprise me. Players could be actively discouraged but given the ok if they jump through enough hoops.

aloooof · 14-11-2019 6:20pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-eight-players-left-on-irish-rugbys-central-contract-hit-list-and-how-the-irfu-plan-to-pay-for-them/

no i don't. you have cited one example and its one of the curious ones as well. Props could be considered a different level. Look at Furlongs money

One example is enough to prove you wrong if, as you were claiming, it was contractual.

Further, it's one player; but Kilcoyne started ahead of him in multiple Tests. It would be mutiple breaches of contract. But it's not because the suggestion that centrally contracted players are guaranteed selection is nonsense!

And again, how do you know what Furlong is on?? Where's your evidence? The simple answer is you don't know, cos players salary's aren't published.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 6:29pm

aloooof wrote: »

One example is enough to prove you wrong if, as you were claiming, it was contractual.

Further, it's one player; but Kilcoyne started ahead of him in multiple Tests. It would be mutiple breaches of contract. But it's not because the suggestion that centrally contracted players are guaranteed selection is nonsense!

And again, how do you know what Furlong is on?? Where's your evidence? The simple answer is you don't know, cos players salary's aren't published.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/tadhg-furlong-now-one-of-irish-rugby-s-top-earners-1.3497851?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fsport%2Frugby%2Ftadhg-furlong-now-one-of-irish-rugby-s-top-earners-1.3497851

It's said that he's on over half a million.

And lo and behold he's going off the boil a little. Porter won't sit around on the bench, just like McGrath didn't. For me this is the system quirk and its not foolproof of course.

readyohyeah · 14-11-2019 6:30pm

Let's think about it. If Irish players were let play abroad and still play internationals. You could have a situation where a player like Larmour was getting to play full back in the English premiership for example while Kearney had the 15 jersey at Leinster. A list of young players could be learning their trade abroad, we'd have far more options to select players playing in form and at a high level. If Murray moved from Munster because of a big check, a space would be open for another player to develop. It really is something that we should consider.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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