Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

tritium · 13-11-2019 5:31pm

volchitsa wrote: »

You are not actually suggesting that as many men are murdered by their female partners or ex partners as women are by male partners/exes? Are you?

I'd really like to see the evidence for that.

I’m suggesting that similar numbers of men are victims of domestic violence by a female partner as vice versa- the data and evidence is in the link in my previous post. The murder element largely goes to both physical differences and how that affects intensity of damage, as well as how DV manifests with each gender.

tritium · 13-11-2019 5:34pm

Faugheen wrote: »

And there we are. Someone who simply doesn’t get it.

You’re right I don’t get why the life of an innocent woman would be prioritized over the life of an innocent man

Please, educate me as to what makes one life more valuable than the other?

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 5:37pm

tritium wrote: »

I’m suggesting that similar numbers of men are victims of domestic violence by a female partner as vice versa- the data and evidence is in the link in my previous post. The murder element largely goes to both physical differences and how that affects intensity of damage, as well as how DV manifests with each gender.

Err, so by minimising actual death as merely due to differences in physical strength and by equating nasty comments to broken bones (and indeed perhaps death) you manage to convince yourself that men are victims too?

FFS.

By that logic a little old man who gets beaten to death in his home by a gang of young travellers is as guilty as they are if he ever made nasty comments about travellers in the past.

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 5:38pm

tritium wrote: »

You’re right I don’t get why the life of an innocent woman would be prioritized over the life of an innocent man

Please, educate me as to what makes one life more valuable than the other?

Eh, the man isn't dead?

tritium · 13-11-2019 5:42pm

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The "my approach" comment was in regard to religion versus law of the land.

I've said repeatedly that I don't know what the solution is to this and I'm simply contributing to a thread on the a very horrific case and example of it. Forums like this lend themselves to "magic bullet" thinking for solutions. Like a lot of complex societal issues it will probably need a complex and ongoing response. All a forum like this can do is begin to turn the thing over and see the dimensions of it. It upsets some people to hear things that they feel is unfair or unproven or offends them or whatever but the thing has to be looked at. The Womens Aid website is well worth looking at.

What I can see is that we need to look at violence in society toward women as part of a broader continuum of attitudes to women: get the vote later, employment limitations, lower pay, should be at home etc etc.

And we can all see that violence in society is mainly male on male and I quoted stats about that earlier. That raises the question is violence against women just part of a broader question of violence?

I don't know what the answer is or if there is an answer.

Tell me this is a pisstake? Welcome to 2019! Amazingly we’ve had universal sufferage for over 3 generations now. We granted women the vote in a similar timeframe that we granted a large portion men the vote- after they’d gone and been slaughtered at verdun and paschendale and had made it socially impossible for a landed elite to deny them anymore. In 2019 it’s illegal to pay women less for gender reasons- I realize someone posted something online a few days ago about how women are working for free from now due to the gender pay gap. The good news is from the next few days on the hours they’re working will go to address the gender hours gap: the time already served by male employees this year

splinter65 · 13-11-2019 5:49pm

tritium wrote: »

You’re right I don’t get why the life of an innocent woman would be prioritized over the life of an innocent man

Please, educate me as to what makes one life more valuable than the other?

The general idea appears to be that because women only have the vote for 100 years and they choose to take more time off from the workplace then men so earn less money over a lifetime then men and because they are physically smaller then men then women are of a higher value then men.

tritium · 13-11-2019 5:56pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Eh, the man isn't dead?

Did you actually bother your ass to read what I wrote or just wanted an outlet fro some outrage. Here try again, I’ve even bolded the key bits for you

tritium wrote: »

Why are women’s lives and wellbeing more important to you than mens?

Statistically a man is vastly more likely to be murdered, or indeed to die in a variety of other violent ways. Surely there’s greater social gain on policies that reduce the death rate there? Or indeed make no gender distinction?

And then in te context of the posters point re DV

In terms of violence where the parties are in a relationship, women have a similar propensity to engage in domestic violence. Again surely the greater social gain would be to focus on dealing with perpetrators and victims of both genders?

You attitude frankly shows a devaluing of the lives and well being of men and boys that is sadly all too in line with certain media outlets and their rather blatant approach to identity politics

Tell me though what is it that so scares certain posters from admitting the reality of the evidence on female perpetrated domestic violence

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 5:57pm

splinter65 wrote: »

The general idea appears to be that because women only have the vote for 100 years and they choose to take more time off from the workplace then men so earn less money over a lifetime then men and because they are physically smaller then men then women are of a higher value then men.

You're aware that they usually aren't on holiday, which is what you make it sound like?

In fact currently the alternative is that most women would just stop having children. As in Japan and Korea. And Germany to a lesser extent.

And it's not women who stop men from taking time off to look after their children, it's usually precisely because they refuse to sacrifice their careers for their children. So isn't it in everyone's interests that women should not be stigmatised for pregnancy and motherhood?

Which is what you doing there.

tritium · 13-11-2019 5:58pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Err, so by minimising actual death as merely due to differences in physical strength and by equating nasty comments to broken bones (and indeed perhaps death) you manage to convince yourself that men are victims too?

FFS.

By that logic a little old man who gets beaten to death in his home by a gang of young travellers is as guilty as they are if he ever made nasty comments about travellers in the past.

Seriously I suggest you actually read that report before you peddle ****e like that, otherwise you’ll just embarrass yourself

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 6:00pm

tritium wrote: »

Did you actually bother your ass to read what I wrote or just wanted an outlet fro some outrage. Here try again, I’ve even bolded the key bits for you

And then in te context of the posters point re DV

Tell me though what is it that so scares certain posters from admitting the reality of the evidence on female perpetrated domestic violence

Men are more likely to be murdered by other men. You're attempting a false equivalence there. Men are violent to other men and to women.

That makes it a problem with men, and pretending that women are the perpetrators as much as men is just trolling. On this particular thread you should be ashamed of yourself. I'm out of here.

tritium · 13-11-2019 6:03pm

volchitsa wrote: »

You're aware that they usually aren't on holiday, which is what you make it sound like?

In fact currently the alternative is that most women would just stop having children. As in Japan and Korea. And Germany to a lesser extent.

And it's not women who stop men from taking time off to look after their children, it's usually precisely because they refuse to sacrifice their careers for their children. So isn't it in everyone's interests that women should not be stigmatised for pregnancy and motherhood?

Which is what you doing there.

Bull****, second thread in the last couple of days where a few posters have been peddling this accusation that it’s career focused men bullying women to stay at home so they can work harder and climb the ladder. No evidence, just shouting it loud and hoping it sticks: newsflash, the world is more complex than you might like to infer and women actually have agency of their own.

tritium · 13-11-2019 6:08pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Men are more likely to be murdered by other men. You're attempting a false equivalence there. Men are violent to other men and to women.

That makes it a problem with men, and pretending that women are the perpetrators as much as men is just trolling. On this particular thread you should be ashamed of yourself. I'm out of here.

And the mask slips finally

A problem with men.

One of the least prevalent crimes going. Perpetrated by a tiny fraction of a percent of the population

But it’s a problem with men

Meanwhile the 40% of DV perpetrated by females is just scratches and name calling

Pathetic stuff

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 6:09pm

tritium wrote: »

Bull****, second thread in the last couple of days where a few posters have been peddling this accusation that it’s career focused men bullying women to stay at home so they can work harder and climb the ladder. No evidence, just shouting it loud and hoping it sticks: newsflash, the world is more complex than you might like to infer and women actually have agency of their own.

You're on a thread about a girl who was raped and murdered by, guess what, not another girl. Violence against women by men is a reality, despite your disgusting attempt to create false equivalents here. You need to go somewhere else to spit your Incel venom amd hatred at women.

Mr E · 13-11-2019 6:16pm

Mod: Take it down a notch or two, folks. Keep it civil.

Yeah_Right · 13-11-2019 6:28pm

I think her murder had less to do with her being female and more with her being an "outsider" and vulnerable and an easy target. If it wasn't her, they may have targeted a boy if he was in a similar situation to her's. Obviously I'm speculating here because I don't know but based on what I have read, I think they just wanted to kill someone.

tritium · 13-11-2019 6:28pm

volchitsa wrote: »

You're on a thread about a girl who was raped and murdered by, guess what, not another girl. Violence against women by men is a reality, despite your disgusting attempt to create false equivalents here. You need to go somewhere else to spit your Incel venom amd hatred at women.

I’m not the one tarring men for a action of a tiny fraction o a percent of people while playing the women are blameless always card. When you need to accuse someone of being an incel you’ve lost mate

ohnonotgmail · 13-11-2019 6:33pm

tritium wrote: »

I’m not the one tarring men for a action of a tiny fraction o a percent of people while playing the women are blameless always card. When you need to accuse someone of being an incel you’ve lost mate

That tiny percentage is almost entirely male. The same as the people who commit serious (and not so serious assaults) are predominantly male. there is a problem with male violence in society. to think otherwise is to put your head in the sand.

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 6:48pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think her murder had less to do with her being female and more with her being an "outsider" and vulnerable and an easy target. If it wasn't her, they may have targeted a boy if he was in a similar situation to her's. Obviously I'm speculating here because I don't know but based on what I have read, I think they just wanted to kill someone.

You are speculating indeed, and not even based on what you read apparently, unless you think the rape was an irrelevance.

They wanted to rape and kill a girl.

Mellor · 13-11-2019 10:11pm

mrjoneill wrote: »

Garda crime figures show homicides rise

There were almost 17 more homicides on average every year over the last 14 years than were previously recorded, according to heavily qualified official statistics.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-crime-figures-show-homicides-rise-468868.html

Either you didn’t read it or you didn’t understand it.
It says due to reclassify types of homicide there are 17 more on average every year in current statistics. Not an increase year on year. So the average in the old data was 50 and the new data is 67, across all years. Not an increase in the rate.
The actually rate, since 1995 has been stable, if anything it’s trending down. It’s the rate that’s important not the total when comparing populations of different sizes.

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 10:45pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think her murder had less to do with her being female and more with her being an "outsider" and vulnerable and an easy target. If it wasn't her, they may have targeted a boy if he was in a similar situation to her's. Obviously I'm speculating here because I don't know but based on what I have read, I think they just wanted to kill someone.

It had nothing to do with gender, in fact the whole bullying was begun by her very own gender caused by their jealousy of her natural beauty but unfortunately she was far too innocent for them. It took two thugs to finalize the bullying and as someone else posted it could have been a boy. The sex-act done on her was further degradation of her when she was unconscious or dead which shows the vile beast they were.

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 10:52pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You clearly did not actually read that article. Or you are cherry picking numbers to support your argument. It was about statistics, data and the recording of crimes. It also mentions that the numbers aren't completely reliable.

Several times it mentions the re-classification of homicides. At no point does it say the ere almost 17 more homicides each year for the last 14 years. It reclassified a number of deaths over that 14 year period as homicides which worked out as 17 more per year than the previous stats said.

Murder rates are up and there is classification difficulties to this is what the article states. Common knowledge would dictate this with the drug wars going on & everyday news reporting of unlawful killings

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 11:26pm

mrjoneill wrote: »

It had nothing to do with gender, in fact the whole bullying was begun by her very own gender caused by their jealousy of her natural beauty but unfortunately she was far too innocent for them. It took two thugs to finalize the bullying and as someone else posted it could have been a boy. The sex-act done on her was further degradation of her when she was unconscious or dead which shows the vile beast they were.

Where are you getting this from? I read that she seemed to have been bullied mainly because her disabilities (partial deafness) meant that she struggled in school and that she was very naive.

Her mother mentioned her size as being a factor. I don't remember hearing anything about girls being jealous of her beauty. I think you're looking at her as adults do, and not how 13 year old girls see each other.

I haven't heard anything about other girls being the instigators of the exclusion (though obviously they were part of it), never mind that these two boys were influenced by the opinion of the girls.

As for the idea that rape and murder are merely "finalising" an act of bullying by 13 year olds, well. I wonder about some people.

Yeah_Right · 13-11-2019 11:26pm

volchitsa wrote: »

You are speculating indeed, and not even based on what you read apparently, unless you think the rape was an irrelevance.

They wanted to rape and kill a girl.

From what has been reported on the this case, there was no rape. There was a conviction for sexual assault (aggravated?) But not rape. Correct me if I'm wrong but that was due to Boy A's semen being found on Ana.

Studies have shown that some killers get sexual gratification from killing. And reliving the kill. Are you saying that definitely didn't happen here? Do you know at what point in the attack the semen was "left"? I don't know these details hence I admit to speculating. Maybe rape was their aim and murder was second. I believe murder was the primary focus.

dartboardio · 13-11-2019 11:29pm

Nothing to do with gender imo.

She was obviously a 'freak' to them. They wanted to do bad, mean things to her.

They clearly wanted to carry out whatever fxxked up fantasies they had from watching extreme porn, or whatever they imagined in their psycho heads.

She could have just as easily been a boy and they would have done everything else minus the sexual assault.

It was clearly a bully motive, deep hatred for the 'outsider' or the 'weirdo' that they took way way too far.

The people saying, the bullies were 'jealous' of her beauty, are probably middle aged. That's not how 13 year old bullies brains work. The mean ones can be lethal!

Theres no way anyone that bullied Ana was jealous of her, she was treated as an outsider, the typical sort, maybe dressed like a goth or acted strange compared to the rest of the class, very tall and big. Just mean to her because she didn't fit into their category of 'cool' or 'okay'

Its feckin disgusting how teens can treat others, when they don't fit into their little box of what they consider normal, especially when ganged up with a few friends.

Terribly sad case alltogether. Imagine the faces and guilt all those who also bullied her down through the years will feel. And rightly so.

Mellor · 13-11-2019 11:31pm

mrjoneill wrote: »

Murder rates are up and there is classification difficulties to this is what the article states. Common knowledge would dictate this with the drug wars going on & everyday news reporting of unlawful killings

I think you need to read the article again. Because that's not what it says.
It's talking about reclassifying old crimes as homicide due to new classifications. If does not say the murder rate is increasing in any shape or form. No idea why you think it says that.

The "increase" refers to data across all years. Noy an increase from first year to last year. See for yourself, here is the data from the article

Also, it's the numbers for homicide, not for murder. There is a difference that you don't seem to be getting. 196 of the 234 new homicides are the result of dangerous driving they weren't murders. In you look at the murder row, you see that most years the numbers were revised downwards on average.
Look at table 3.2, the number of murders/manslaughter since 2003 is going down not up. The two lowest years are the most recent two.
The data that you posted, literally proves you wrong.

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 11:35pm

dartboardio wrote: »

Nothing to do with gender imo.

She was obviously a 'freak' to them. They wanted to do bad, mean things to her.

They clearly wanted to carry out whatever fxxked up fantasies they had from watching extreme porn, or whatever they imagined in their psycho heads.

She could have just as easily been a boy and they would have done everything else minus the sexual assault.

It was clearly a bully motive, deep hatred for the 'outsider' or the 'weirdo' that they took way way too far.

This doesn't even make sense. It wasn't a boy who was attacked, and she was raped as well as murdered - and you're even blaming porn for it yourself. So either there's a sexual motive or there isn't, and if there isn't, then it's nothing to do with porn.

What exactly would have been needed for you to accept that there was a sexual element to the attack? A second rape? Not killing her? What if that was part of getting away with the rape? What about rapists who murder their victims - are those killings not related to gender either?

dartboardio · 13-11-2019 11:40pm

volchitsa wrote: »

This doesn't even make sense. It wasn't a boy who was attacked, and she was raped as well as murdered - and you're even blaming porn for it yourself. So either there's a sexual motive or there isn't, and if there isn't, then it's nothing to do with porn.

What exactly would have been needed for you to accept that there was a sexual element to the attack? A second rape? Not killing her? What if that was part of getting away with the rape? What about rapists who murder their victims - are those killings not related to gender either?

Sorry? Did you not read my post properly?

I said it was nothing to do with her gender, it was nothing to do with her being female. It was just because she was who she was.

I never said there wasn't a sexual element, everyone knows there was. And they were charged with sexual assault also surely, no?

Jeez

pinkyeye · 13-11-2019 11:52pm

dartboardio wrote: »

Nothing to do with gender imo.

She was obviously a 'freak' to them. They wanted to do bad, mean things to her.

They clearly wanted to carry out whatever fxxked up fantasies they had from watching extreme porn, or whatever they imagined in their psycho heads.

She could have just as easily been a boy and they would have done everything else minus the sexual assault.

It was clearly a bully motive, deep hatred for the 'outsider' or the 'weirdo' that they took way way too far.

The people saying, the bullies were 'jealous' of her beauty, are probably middle aged. That's not how 13 year old bullies brains work. The mean ones can be lethal!

Theres no way anyone that bullied Ana was jealous of her, she was treated as an outsider, the typical sort, maybe dressed like a goth or acted strange compared to the rest of the class, very tall and big. Just mean to her because she didn't fit into their category of 'cool' or 'okay'

Its feckin disgusting how teens can treat others, when they don't fit into their little box of what they consider normal, especially when ganged up with a few friends.

Terribly sad case alltogether. Imagine the faces and guilt all those who also bullied her down through the years will feel. And rightly so.

No, you're completely wrong if you think that 13 year olds are not jealous of beauty. It's is you who does not understand the teenage mind if you don't realise that.

dartboardio · 14-11-2019 12:02am

pinkyeye wrote: »

No, you're completely wrong if you think that 13 year olds are not jealous of beauty. It's is you who does not understand the teenage mind if you don't realise that.

Of course they are. But also very nasty for the sake of it, or if someone isn't deemed 'normal' in their mind.

volchitsa · 14-11-2019 12:12am

dartboardio wrote: »

Sorry? Did you not read my post properly?

I said it was nothing to do with her gender, it was nothing to do with her being female. It was just because she was who she was.

I never said there wasn't a sexual element, everyone knows there was. And they were charged with sexual assault also surely, no?

Jeez

You edited your post while I was typing, so it's a bit much to tell me I didn't read it. You changed your post to try and make a bit more sense - but that's not my fault.

I actually agree with you that the other kids probably didn't feel that she was beautiful, her other disabilities, including her height, clearly negated that in their minds, otherwise they wouldn't have bullied her - they'd have wanted to be with her.

I still don't see how you can say that the attack had a sexual motive but had nothing to do with her gender though. Especially when you yourself linked it to porn. What differences in the attack would have made you think it was gender related?

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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