Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Skylinehead · 12-11-2019 11:14AM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

If this was the United States those scumbags would be sodomised until they needed colostomy bags and then suffer a slow painful execution

The US Supreme Court bans the death penalty for anyone under the age of 15. Stop talking out of your arse.

iamwhoiam · 12-11-2019 11:23AM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Excellent article in IT today by Professor of Psychology in UL. Stating the obvious. I’d add to it the fact that an isolated child was targeted, the mindless obliviousness of teenagers to reality and a view of reality distorted by modern technology and society and the final piece of the jigsaw, the nature of the two convicted criminals and the “mystery” of why Ana died disappears. I can’t link article but someone else might.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ana-kri%C3%A9gel-was-murdered-by-boys-because-she-was-a-girl-1.4079577

banie01 · 12-11-2019 11:51AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ana-kri%C3%A9gel-was-murdered-by-boys-because-she-was-a-girl-1.4079577

Thanks for posting the article.

There is a massive call to emotion and generalisation of men as potential violent brutes.
That particular article is really using Ana's violent and abhorrent death as a crutch for an argument that Ireland is a society that is permeated by gender based violence and potential rape.

It does very little to frame Ana's death in anything other than the fault of a mysoginist male society.

It is more an academic jumping on a bandwagon than it is a reasoned or balanced analysis.

iamwhoiam · 12-11-2019 11:54AM

banie01 wrote: »

Thanks for posting the article.

There is a massive call to emotion and generalisation of men as potential violent brutes.
That particular article is really using Ana's violent and abhorrent death as a crutch for an argument that Ireland is a society that is permeated by gender based violence and potential rape.

It does very little to frame Ana's death in anything other than the fault of a mysoginist male society.

It is more an academic jumping on a bandwagon than it is a reasoned or balanced analysis.

Have to agree with you to be honest .In my life i am surrounded by gentle men , husband , father , uncles, sons , nephews , sons in law , who are all kind non violent men . I dont think they should be tarred with any brush simply because they are male

KWAG2019 · 12-11-2019 12:25PM

banie01 wrote: »

Thanks for posting the article.

There is a massive call to emotion and generalisation of men as potential violent brutes.
That particular article is really using Ana's violent and abhorrent death as a crutch for an argument that Ireland is a society that is permeated by gender based violence and potential rape.

It does very little to frame Ana's death in anything other than the fault of a mysoginist male society.

It is more an academic jumping on a bandwagon than it is a reasoned or balanced analysis.

I found it illuminating. As you would expect it supplies statistical support. It frames Ana’s death in the “blindingly obvious” context of male violence against women. It argues for a continuum of that. It points to the words used by the convicted criminals about her (“slutty”) as indicative of an attitude that underpins justifications for male violence. I think it cuts through so much of the cant about this horrific crime and hits nerves. Lots of feathers being ruffled by it and no harm. Much more serious ruffling needed of feathers. Wigs, gowns.

banie01 · 12-11-2019 12:30PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I found it illuminating. As you would expect it supplies statistical support. It frames Ana’s death in the “blindingly obvious” context of male violence against women. It argues for a continuum of that. It points to the words used by the convicted criminals about her (“slutty”) as indicative of an attitude that underpins justifications for male violence. I think it cuts through so much of the cant about this horrific crime and hits nerves. Lots of feathers being ruffled by it and no harm. Much more serious ruffling needed of feathers. Wigs, gowns.

Before I address any of the rest of your post.
Could you please show me the statistics used in that article?

The actual statistical sources professor Muldoon uses to make her point?
Rather than the cherry picked sentences that are included with no citation or attribution?

P.Walnuts · 12-11-2019 12:35PM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

If you have a bold dog who bites someone you put them down

These two savages are sub human animals who should be executed

If this was the United States those scumbags would be sodomised until they needed colostomy bags and then suffer a slow painful execution

They need to bring back death penalty in Ireland for murderers

You seem like a pleasant man

KWAG2019 · 12-11-2019 12:40PM

banie01 wrote: »

Before I address any of the rest of your post.
Could you please show me the statistics used in that article?

The actual statistical sources professor Muldoon uses to make her point?
Rather than the cherry picked sentences that are included with no citation or attribution?

You have obviously seen them as you describe them as “cherry picked sentences”. As anyone who reads it can see it is an opinion piece not an academic article.
She has obviously hit a nerve and ruffled feathers. Emotion best kept out of thinking about the issues she has raised. It’s a very thought provoking piece once people get past the initial stage.

banie01 · 12-11-2019 12:49PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

You have obviously seen them as you describe them as “cherry picked sentences”. As anyone who reads it can see it is an opinion piece not an academic article.
She has obviously hit a nerve and ruffled feathers. Emotion best kept out of thinking about the issues she has raised. It’s a very thought provoking piece once people get past the initial stage.

That is precisely my point.
There is no actual citation or attribution for the numbers she has quoted.
She is presenting as a "fact" an unattributed set of numbers.
She then proceeds to use that number to present the male population as mysoginist and being on the cusp of becoming murdering rapists.

There is no academic standing to her opinion, her research in general would also be very indicative of a particular bias.
1 that you are eager to parrot, without asking or examining her supposed evidence.

The piece was an opportunity for a progressive feminist psychology professor to add an article to her publications list.

The whole premise of the article is poor. It's entire thesis is predicated on Irish men being inherently violent towards women, physically and sexually without presenting any evidence other than an abhorrent murder and unattributed statistics.

The article hasn't hit a nerve or ruffled feathers, least not mine.
Prof Muldoon is a good professor, an interesting lecturer but anyone reading this article and thinking it provides an insight into either the motivations or inclinations of boy a and b or indeed of society in general.
Is not really approaching it in a critical manner.

KWAG2019 · 12-11-2019 12:55PM

banie01 wrote: »

That is precisely my point.
There is no actual citation or attribution for the numbers she has quoted.
She is presenting as a "fact" an unattributed set of numbers.
She then proceeds to use that number to present the male population as mysoginist and being on the cusp of becoming murdering rapists.

There is no academic standing to her opinion, her research in general would also be very indicative of a particular bias.
1 that you are eager to parrot, without asking or examining her supposed evidence.

The piece was an opportunity for a progressive feminist psychology professor to add an article to her publications list.

The whole premise of the article is poor. It's entire thesis is predicated on Irish men being inherently violent towards women, physically and sexually without presenting any evidence other than an abhorrent murder and unattributed statistics.

The article hasn't hit a nerve or ruffled feathers, least not mine.
Prof Muldoon is a good professor, an interesting lecturer but anyone reading this article and thinking it provides an insight into either the motivations or inclinations of boy a and b is not really approaching it in a critical manner.

I see no evidence here from you to overturn her article. A lot of agitation certainly. I’ll pass this on to her so she can see if it’s worth a follow up.

banie01 · 12-11-2019 01:16PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I see no evidence here from you to overturn her article. A lot of agitation certainly. I’ll pass this on to her so she can see if it’s worth a follow up.

So you are claiming the article is answering the mystery of why Ana died ( it doesn't) that it presented statistical evidence (it doesn't, nor was any evidence of such presented) and most importantly that it underpins a justification for male violence against women in the manner in which the perpetrators spoke about Ana (it doesn't, nor was any evidence of such presented).

You say I have presented no evidence to overturn the premise of the article?
The article presents no evidence, none ergo there isn't really anything for me to refute and anyway I'm not trying to refute it.
I'm trying to find the actual basis for the claim that the violence visited upon Ana was as a result of violent societal misogyny.
Further to that, its a fairly accepted fact that one doesn't prove a point by the absence of evidence.
The evidence which is sorely lacking in the article you brought up as insightful.

Now rather than defend your support of her puff piece, you are going to bring it to her attention?
Are your opinions not your own?

If the pronouns for male were substituted with black, or traveller or any other ethnic label it would likely be called out for being inciteful, rather than insightful.

KWAG2019 · 12-11-2019 02:07PM

banie01 wrote: »

So you are claiming the article is answering the mystery of why Ana died ( it doesn't) that it presented statistical evidence (it doesn't, nor was any evidence of such presented) and most importantly that it underpins a justification for male violence against women in the manner in which the perpetrators spoke about Ana (it doesn't, nor was any evidence of such presented).

You say I have presented no evidence to overturn the premise of the article?
The article presents no evidence, none ergo there isn't really anything for me to refute and anyway I'm not trying to refute it.
I'm trying to find the actual basis for the claim that the violence visited upon Ana was as a result of violent societal misogyny.
Further to that, its a fairly accepted fact that one doesn't prove a point by the absence of evidence.
The evidence which is sorely lacking in the article you brought up as insightful.

Now rather than defend your support of her puff piece, you are going to bring it to her attention?
Are your opinions not your own?

If the pronouns for male were substituted with black, or traveller or any other ethnic label it would likely be called out for being inciteful, rather than insightful.

Difficult to know where to start with this without the usual multi quote disaster exchanges that clog up the thread and the real agitation and emotion caused by the article.

To be brief: in post 6832 I gave my opinion about the "mystery" of why Ana died. You can read that and see it goes further than the "blindingly obvious" point made by the IT article. And "blindingly obvious" is correct.

You deny the article presents statistics which is incorrect. It does, the sources are not cited but I dealt with that already.

The reports I saw of the trial mentioned that at least one of the convicted criminals described Ana as "slutty" and a "weirdo". To their mind it obviously gave some justification. Its commonplace and blindlingly obvious that it is a defence used in sexual assault cases.

As far as I can make out from your reply you seem to find the "societal misogyny" particularly objectionable. That's fair enough, you have an opinion about it. The article is brilliant because it illuminates an issue that has been in the media for recent years: Trump, #metoo, prominent rape cases, treatment of women in "revealed" religions, Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, unequal pay, US womens' soccer team pay etc and it makes us think about this. Ruffled feathers are to be expected and to be welcomed but we have to get past those to look at the issue.

Again, it is blindingly obvious that my opinions are mine just as yours are yours. I repeat my view of her opinion piece in the IT; brilliant and insightful. After seeing your attempts to dismiss it I'll add, hugely important and courageous. Criticisms of it are found also in the comments in the IT. Well worth a look.

banie01 · 12-11-2019 02:25PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Difficult to know where to start with this without the usual multi quote disaster exchanges that clog up the thread and the real agitation and emotion caused by the article.

To be brief: in post 6832 I gave my opinion about the "mystery" of why Ana died. You can read that and see it goes further than the "blindingly obvious" point made by the IT article. And "blindingly obvious" is correct.

You deny the article presents statistics which is incorrect. It does, the sources are not cited but I dealt with that already.

The reports I saw of the trial mentioned that at least one of the convicted criminals described Ana as "slutty" and a "weirdo". To their mind it obviously gave some justification. Its commonplace and blindlingly obvious that it is a defence used in sexual assault cases.

As far as I can make out from your reply you seem to find the "societal misogyny" particularly objectionable. That's fair enough, you have an opinion about it. The article is brilliant because it illuminates an issue that has been in the media for recent years: Trump, #metoo, prominent rape cases, treatment of women in "revealed" religions, Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, unequal pay, US womens' soccer team pay etc and it makes us think about this. Ruffled feathers are to be expected and to be welcomed but we have to get past those to look at the issue.

Again, it is blindingly obvious that my opinions are mine just as yours are yours. I repeat my view of her opinion piece in the IT; brilliant and insightful. After seeing your attempts to dismiss it I'll add, hugely important and courageous. Criticisms of it are found also in the comments in the IT. Well worth a look.

There are no statistics, the article is presented from a biased viewpoint that is borne out if one reviews Prof Muldoon's body of published papers quite apparent.

Now you are claiming that my "attempts to dismiss" it are indicative of Prof Muldoon's courage in writing it?
That's absolute nonsense.

Noone is dismissing, least of all me is dismissing the article.
At each and every point I've questioned the basis for its assertions.
Your reply again points out and highlights the weakness of the thesis.

The article isn't brilliant.
Its derivitave, laboured, unsupported,unevidenced and highly targeted appeal to emotion
It is scaremongering and quite honestly a near hysterical knee-jerk.

It is a poor article, that appears poorly referenced but I will concede that may have been an editorial decision.

You are holding this article up as some sort of paragon of rightness or an example academic bravery!?

It is anything but.
It is a cut and paste effort that could apply to any violent sexual attack.
It does take the biscuit in laying the blame for an horrific folie a Deux at the feet of male Irish Society.

I wonder what the reaction would be if a the violent death of a young male was laid at the feet of all irish women?
With as little evidence for such an assumption as Ms Muldoon has presented?

abff · 12-11-2019 02:37PM

Having read the article, I'm inclined to agree with those who find it simplistic.

Balf · 12-11-2019 02:42PM

banie01 wrote: »

Thanks for posting the article.

There is a massive call to emotion and generalisation of men as potential violent brutes.
That particular article is really using Ana's violent and abhorrent death as a crutch for an argument that Ireland is a society that is permeated by gender based violence and potential rape.

It does very little to frame Ana's death in anything other than the fault of a mysoginist male society.

It is more an academic jumping on a bandwagon than it is a reasoned or balanced analysis.

I have to agree. There may be a case to be made about gender based violence. But this isn't it. She says

Many women, young and old, and including girls, have been murdered previously in Ireland.

There's about 100 murders a year in Ireland (of all genders), each one a tragedy for someone.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-rc/recordedcrimeq42017/homicidestatisticsrevisions/

But every year 30,000 people die in Ireland.

https://statbank.cso.ie/multiquicktables/quickTables.aspx?id=vsa02_vsa09_vsa18

Murder is a very, very unusual happening in Ireland. And a premeditated murder by 13 year olds is actually without precedent.

That's the factual starting point. Not "women are being murdered by men all the time, and this is only the tip of an iceberg of male violence against women."

I notice women have something to say on this topic, and some of it is about random verbal abuse by skangers on the street. And a useful conversation might be had about that. But not with this grotesque starting point.

jackboy · 12-11-2019 02:53PM

We can't know why she was killed because we don't have honest statements from the two boys, they have consistently lied and deceived from the start. Until someone gets an honest statement from them everything else is guesswork.

Putting a once off child to child murder down to issues with the society is a real stretch.

retro:electro · 12-11-2019 04:10PM

“We need to boys and men to task”. What a ridiculous statement. The whole article is an insult to the many loving boys and men that Ana had in her life who would give anything to have her back. Ana wasn’t murdered because she happened to be anything. To say such a thing almost infers that she bears some of the responsibility of her own murder for daring to be a girl. She was murdered because the people who murdered were sadistic little bastards.

donkeykong5 · 12-11-2019 04:13PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Ana Kriegel: Parents to sue local education board over school's response to bullying allegations.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/grieving-parents-ana-kriegel-sue-17234290

Good

Suckit · 12-11-2019 04:22PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Ana Kriegel: Parents to sue local education board over school's response to bullying allegations.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/grieving-parents-ana-kriegel-sue-17234290

I hope that is just the beginning of getting people to admit accountability. Posting "Respect For All" across the frontpage of their website leaves a bit of a bitter taste.

I also hope that getting this, doesn't consume them.

KWAG2019 · 12-11-2019 07:53PM

The article in the IT has really hit nerves: the comments on the IT site and here show that. I can understand the strong reaction to it and I welcome that to get past the knee jerk emotional stage.

Beyond that lies some hard truths: Ana's murder lies at the end of a continuum of violence against women. 225 women have been killed in Ireland 1996-2018. 16 children died with them. In 2017 19,385 disclosures of domestic violence were made to Women's Aid. While Prof. Muldoon's article didn't supply those stats we can all google as well as I can. Women are more likely to die a violent death at home than anywhere else. https://www.womensaid.ie/about/campaigns/femicide-in-ireland.html

I think we can all understand that the article has framed Ana's death in a particular light and not a very pleasant one. Muldoon has bravely put this out there and it's time that we began to think about the culture of misogyny that feeds into this continuum of violence. The "mystery" of Ana's death is just a fig leaf to avoid dealing with what we do already know. And there is enough to be getting on with: the justice system, as well as mobile phones and children, as well as anti bullying policies.

banie01 · 12-11-2019 08:18PM

There is nothing courageous and indeed little actually cogent in Orla Muldoon's near monthly rail against the patriarchy.

If you think there is, indeed if you think that article you are so fond of praising has any serious journalistic or quasi academic merit, I'd seriously doubt your ability to offer a reasonable critique.

You have done nothing to address the criticisms raised of the work bar repeating a frankly ridiculous praise of Muldoon's courage.

Jesus, I don't even think Ms Muldoon's mother could ascribe as much praise to the version of the article she has pinned to her fridge in its original crayon!

If your bar on what makes quality journalism is set that low, the Daily Mail may well blow your mind so be careful with what you read!

There are many more quality articles both journalistic and academic that make a much more cogent thesis for the gender based violence theory than the piece you are enamoured with.
Holding that tripe up as anything approaching quality, makes a mockery of anyone who has ever endured domestic violence.

Domestic violence is not a gender based issue, if it was Lesbian couples would never encounter it.
Yet the research available says much different.

Far more women are victims of men in domestic violence, but on an actual like for like per capita basis the amount of lesbian relationships that descend to violence is staggering.
How do you and your buddy Ms Muldoon propose to lay that cohort at the door of Irish men?

KWAG2019 · 12-11-2019 08:29PM

I haven’t read any criticism of the article. I’ve read rejection of it. I’ve read your highly emotional, personalized insults and exaggerated responses which haven’t made any impact on the thrust of what she said. If you get this emotional on a forum I will repeat that Muldoon was brave. Good on her.

banie01 · 12-11-2019 08:35PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I haven’t read any criticism of the article. I’ve read rejection of it. I’ve read your highly emotional, personalized insults and exaggerated responses which haven’t made any impact on the thrust of what she said. If you get this emotional on a forum I will repeat that Muldoon was brave. Good on her.

If you feel I have offered insult, report it.
If not, withdraw the remark please.

You are fixated upon Muldoon's article being brave, you are in a minority of one from what I can see.
The article is poor, its premise is poor and should any clarification be needed feel free to scroll up and re-read the criticisms that have been levied against it.

Defending poor work, because it fits nicely or segues into a world view you cultivate is a very poor stance to take in life.
I'd hope it never bites you.

Spanish Eyes · 12-11-2019 08:38PM

With due respect to the lovely Ana Kriegel, may she rest in peace, her murderers will be forgotten about by those not personally involved very soon.

There may be a book, podcast or something like that, but life goes on.

This case was absolutely awful, no way to ameliorate it for anyone. Ever.

The identities will come out after 18, even if it is barred by the judge. If it were my daughter I would do it, and go to jail for it. Can you see that happening? But maybe others have more conscience and observance of the law in such circumstances than I do. I don't think I could help myself.

KWAG2019 · 12-11-2019 08:45PM

I don’t care about you offering insult. It’s simply a sign of your hugely emotional response. Nothing I have read here impacts upon the thrust of the article. It’s an important point to dispel the “mystery” of Ana’s murder.

About poor stances in life: taking a highly emotional and reactive stance is not a way to get at truth. I hope you get control of your reactions. I’d imagine it has already bitten you

tuxy · 12-11-2019 08:45PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The identities will come out after 18, even if it is barred by the judge. If it were my daughter I would do it, and go to jail for it. Can you see that happening? But maybe others have more conscience and observance of the law in such circumstances than I do. I don't think I could help myself.

Is this article incorrect or do you think the new identities will be unsuccessful?

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/teen-killers-ana-kriegel-offered-20851005

retro:electro · 12-11-2019 08:47PM

I wonder how their anonymity works in Oberstown in relation to the other offenders there? When the other youths leave after what I assume will be a much shorter period of detention, are they bound from revealing their names, even casually to family? How can you police that? Or how does it work?

tuxy · 12-11-2019 08:53PM

Does it matter what their names are now if they are getting new identities on release?

It could only cause harm to innocence members of their family to reveal the names at this stage.

banie01 · 12-11-2019 08:54PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I don’t care about you offering insult. It’s simply a sign of your hugely emotional response. Nothing I have read here impacts upon the thrust of the article. It’s an important point to dispel the “mystery” of Ana’s murder.

About poor stances in life: taking a highly emotional and reactive stance is not a way to get at truth. I hope you get control of your reactions. I’d imagine it has already bitten you

You are fixated on assigning an emotional aspect to my response.
There isn't one, and funnily enough from your posting syntax and phrasing I'd be fairly sure that you posted similar comments towards a poster in the comments section of the article itself.
Apologies if I'm wrong, but it's quite a distinctive style.

I have no emotional involvement or indeed investment in this.
The article isn't an affront to masculinity.

It is poorly researched, emotive, knee-jerk, catch all and as I said in an earlier reply a copy and paste response that fits any violent sexual assault.

That is not emotive, that is criticism, editorialising and factual critique.

It's an affront to good journalism and half decent academics.

If you wish to respond in kind, please do?
Because given you have already ignored the prevalence of domestic violence in Lesbian relationships, it really does appear that not only are you the president and cheerleader in chief of Ms Muldoon's fan club.

Its quite clear that you have an agenda that actually precludes criticism, inspection or indeed verification of any of the claims made or the effect that may have on your quite clearly gender driven agenda.
Or is it just Mrs Muldoon's claims you think are Pulitzer worthy?

Purple Mountain · 12-11-2019 08:57PM

retro:electro wrote: »

I wonder how their anonymity works in Oberstown in relation to the other offenders there? When the other youths leave after what I assume will be a much shorter period of detention, are they bound from revealing their names, even casually to family? How can you police that? Or how does it work?

I'd assume its the same as everyone in their old school knowing their name.
All the locals know who they are but no one can name them in the press or media.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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