Level Crossings @ Lansdowne, Sandymount, Sydney Parade: Excessive Length of Time Down

blobert · 04-11-2019 7:24pm #1

Hello,

Not 100% sure if this is the correct forum vs rail one but thought I'd try here.

I've recently moved to live right beside Sydney Parade train station.

I work in Ballsbridge just over the level crossing at Serpentine Avenue so I tend to cross over the tracks multiple times a day as a pedestrian at a few different barriers. I cannot drive anywhere without having to cross at level crossings, often several times in a trip.

I'm finding the length of time that these barriers are down per day to be crazy and I'm hoping to find out a bit of info as to why this might be and how it could be improved.

Firstly I'm wondering how the level crossings from Lansdowne road to Merrion Gates are controlled? Do they close when a train rolls over a certain section of track in advance of them (I'm thinking this might be the best explanation as to how they are so dysfunctional) or some other way?

Secondly, does anyone know why they are set to be closed so so far in advance of a train arriving? I'm assuming somewhere along the way someone was overly conservative with their calculations of what was needed but the end result is that for every DART, commuter train, very rare freight trains, the barriers tend to close several minutes before the train actually arrives.

Then, if 2 trains happen to be passing in opposite directions, because of whatever incredibly conservative calculations are being used you get a double effect of this were there tracks are down for 5+ minutes for an event that lasts about 10 seconds (the trains crossing).

I find this incredibly frustrating on a personal level (where I'm often spending 10-15+ minutes a day standing at the barriers and, if I were to drive home any time about 5-6pm there will be a tailback of several hundred metres of cars on my road, very specifically because of the barriers being down so long causing a delay of up to 20 minutes) But also I find it frustrating in that it's very clearly just been done incorrectly and could proabbly be massively improved with very little effort.

If anyone could shed any light on how this system works as is I'd really appreciate so I can begin my quest to fix it!

Thanks in advance

Vic_08 · 04-11-2019 7:44pm

So you don't have any understanding of how they work but you are sure they are "dysfunctional, incredibly conservative, etc. How about you reserve the judgement until you aren't pig ignorant of the topic?

The crossings are operating correctly and cannot have their sequences shortened without significantly disrupting the service or removing the safety features that make it exceedingly unlikely for a train to ever pass over a crossing that is occupied.

Railway crossings are governed by the railway signalling. In order for a train to pass the crossing needs to be closed and verified (signaller looks at CCTV of crossing) before the signal preceding it can be cleared. The crossing needs to be cleared in advance as railway signals operate in a chain, if the signal before the crossing is red the one before that will be yellow which will slow down the train, to run without disruption the crossing has to be cleared before the train is required to brake for the yellow.

L1011 · 04-11-2019 7:47pm

The fix for it is to dispose of the spurious complaints at Merrion Gates and get the bridge built; and close the others entirely with pedestrian/cycle bridges with lifts.

IE 222 · 04-11-2019 7:52pm

blobert wrote: »

Hello,

Not 100% sure if this is the correct forum vs rail one but thought I'd try here.

I've recently moved to live right beside Sydney Parade train station.

I work in Ballsbridge just over the level crossing at Serpentine Avenue so I tend to cross over the tracks multiple times a day as a pedestrian at a few different barriers. I cannot drive anywhere without having to cross at level crossings, often several times in a trip.

I'm finding the length of time that these barriers are down per day to be crazy and I'm hoping to find out a bit of info as to why this might be and how it could be improved.

Firstly I'm wondering how the level crossings from Lansdowne road to Merrion Gates are controlled? Do they close when a train rolls over a certain section of track in advance of them (I'm thinking this might be the best explanation as to how they are so dysfunctional) or some other way?

Secondly, does anyone know why they are set to be closed so so far in advance of a train arriving? I'm assuming somewhere along the way someone was overly conservative with their calculations of what was needed but the end result is that for every DART, commuter train, very rare freight trains, the barriers tend to close several minutes before the train actually arrives.

Then, if 2 trains happen to be passing in opposite directions, because of whatever incredibly conservative calculations are being used you get a double effect of this were there tracks are down for 5+ minutes for an event that lasts about 10 seconds (the trains crossing).

I find this incredibly frustrating on a personal level (where I'm often spending 10-15+ minutes a day standing at the barriers and, if I were to drive home any time about 5-6pm there will be a tailback of several hundred metres of cars on my road, very specifically because of the barriers being down so long causing a delay of up to 20 minutes) But also I find it frustrating in that it's very clearly just been done incorrectly and could proabbly be massively improved with very little effort.

If anyone could shed any light on how this system works as is I'd really appreciate so I can begin my quest to fix it!

Thanks in advance

There is no way around it. Ideally the gates should be down at little earlier so trains can travel faster. Gates need to be down even if the train is going to stop at the station before crossing the level crossing in case it over runs the station.

Your fellow neighbour's objected to plans to close the Merrion Gates with a replacement bridge, so I'd suggest you start there.

BlackandGreen · 04-11-2019 8:34pm

I know the feeling OP. There are a good few intercity crossings I have to deal with and sometimes they do be down for excessive lengths of time.
There's a couple on the Waterford - Dublin and Wexford - Dublin line that even stay down for several minutes AFTER the train has passed.
I'd only hazard a guess it's down to inadequate and old signalling technology.

When you see countries able to lower and raise the crossing -/+ 30 seconds of the train it's a bit frustrating.
Hell even in the US with some of their rickety freight rural freight lines you see the crossing operated just as fast.

On another note.

There's a couple on the Clonmel - Waterford line manually operated, that do be closed for similar lenghts of time.
When the train pulls into Carrick on Suir from Clonmel, even though it's already passed the crossing, you have to wait for 5+ minutes until the train has stopped at the platform, moved off and then I think the same person who operates the signal box on the platform, has to walk back to the gates and open them long after the train has pulled away from the platform.
Can be frustrating.

Vic_08 wrote: »

So you don't have any understanding of how they work but you are sure they are "dysfunctional, incredibly conservative, etc. How about you reserve the judgement until you aren't pig ignorant of the topic?

These kinds of comments are what make this website such a crappy place to browse sometimes. The irony of calling somebody pig ignorant while talking in such a tone. The hell is your problem?
Just answer the question nicely. Not everyone is a train gazing know it all.

goingnowhere · 04-11-2019 8:43pm

If motorists didn't crash into the gates the rules might not be so conservative

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7rP_dEKZuQ

In 35 years there hasn't been a train vs car incident at any DART level crossing as the gates close, are visually cleared by CCTV before the train is allowed pass

The DART is afforded the lowest of 6 levels of priority at the level crossings, turning it up a notch or two would cut several minutes off train times

IE 222 · 04-11-2019 9:25pm

BlackandGreen wrote: »

I know the feeling OP. There are a good few intercity crossings I have to deal with and sometimes they do be down for excessive lengths of time.
There's a couple on the Waterford - Dublin and Wexford - Dublin line that even stay down for several minutes AFTER the train has passed.
I'd only hazard a guess it's down to inadequate and old signalling technology.

When you see countries able to lower and raise the crossing -/+ 30 seconds of the train it's a bit frustrating.
Hell even in the US with some of their rickety freight rural freight lines you see the crossing operated just as fast.

On another note.

There's a couple on the Clonmel - Waterford line manually operated, that do be closed for similar lenghts of time.
When the train pulls into Carrick on Suir from Clonmel, even though it's already passed the crossing, you have to wait for 5+ minutes until the train has stopped at the platform, moved off and then I think the same person who operates the signal box on the platform, has to walk back to the gates and open them long after the train has pulled away from the platform.
Can be frustrating.

Waterford and Wexford lines are single track lines. The signalling works in block sections. The trains needs.to enter and LEAVE the block for the system to work safely.

The US probably has one of the worst crossing collision rates due to the lack of safe crossings, how often do we see trains ploughing through trucks on crossings, imagine how much longer you'd be delayed if that was to happen.

beauf · 04-11-2019 9:49pm

blobert wrote: »

...
I've recently moved to live right beside Sydney Parade train station...

Without being smart you really should have researched this if you were moving bedside them.

After a while you'll get to know the schedule and it will be second nature to adjust your journey times to avoid the closings.

blobert · 05-11-2019 12:57am

Thanks very much for the replies guys, I really appreciate them!

Railway crossings are governed by the railway signalling. In order for a train to pass the crossing needs to be closed and verified (signaller looks at CCTV of crossing) before the signal preceding it can be cleared. The crossing needs to be cleared in advance as railway signals operate in a chain, if the signal before the crossing is red the one before that will be yellow which will slow down the train, to run without disruption the crossing has to be cleared before the train is required to brake for the yellow.

If I'm reading this right it implies there is a human watching the junctions and clearing/controlling them? This would seem to allow more scope for improvement than a fully automated system. Do you know what gives the initial signal for the barriers to descend, is it a train passing over a certain point on the tracks?

There is no way around it. Ideally the gates should be down at little earlier so trains can travel faster. Gates need to be down even if the train is going to stop at the station before crossing the level crossing in case it over runs the station.

At Sydney parade station this evening the barriers went down. Over 2 minutes later the northbound DART arrived and stopped at the station. It was a further 1.5 minutes or so before the train left and the barriers went back up. This was a single train and the barriers were down for the guts of 4 minutes for a 10 second event (the train passing the junction very slowly). This just seems massively inefficient.

With the idea that the barriers have to be down before they enter the station in case they overrun the station, how often does that happen? Is the driver the only thing stopping the train? Why could they not just delay whatever it is that's giving the signal to close each junction till the train is nearer the station, as I said it's frequently several minutes between barrier going down and train even reaching the station.

With the train overrunning, the platforms seem to be far longer than the train, the platform at Sydney Parade is circa 200m long. Could the trains not stop 100m from the end of the platform if they wanted to have built in leeway for if they somehow overrun?

I just can't imagine the way it's being done at the moment is the best possible way it can be done. I've lived very close to train junctions in the Netherlands and in Austria, in the case of the former, by tracks that had a more trains per day than where I'm living now. The barriers seemed to be down a fraction of the time they are here.

Your fellow neighbour's objected to plans to close the Merrion Gates with a replacement bridge, so I'd suggest you start there.

Agreed, I can't understand why they objected to that, it seemed a massive improvement to the current situation

If motorists didn't crash into the gates the rules might not be so conservative

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7rP_dEKZuQ

I would argue it's the exact opposite, motorists speed up/try to get through because they know they will have a crazy wait time if they do not. They also know that, after the barriers go down that it will be several minutes before any train arrives. I know personally I'll normally speed up coming up to the barriers out of fear of getting stuck behind them for ages.

I'm sure it must be possible to have a system that is as safe as reasonably possible while not having the barriers closed for as much of the day as they currently are. I think this has been exacerbated by the more frequent DARTS, if there's a train every 10 minutes in each direction for much of the day then you've essentially got the barriers down for several minutes every 5 minutes or so which will really add up.

After a while you'll get to know the schedule and it will be second nature to adjust your journey times to avoid the closings.

Not really possible, the trains will vary from scheduled times by +1-3 minutes a lot of the time so even if in theory there should be no train between 10:05 to 10:08am as per schedule in reality there is every chance the barriers will be closed then due to a train being slightly ahead/behind schedule.

Anyway, I still have complete faith this can be improved so any further information as to how the current system works would be much appreciated!

beauf · 05-11-2019 1:28am

Adjust to the train times and allowing for delays is easy. Changing the signalling on the countries busiest line and something had been argued over for decades is what's impossible.

If anything they want to reduce the number of crossings and opening's and give the trains higher priority.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/50m-plan-to-end-traffic-nightmare-at-level-crossing-on-dart-tracks-35165700.html

IE 222 · 05-11-2019 8:47am

blobert wrote: »

Thanks very much for the replies guys, I really appreciate them!

If I'm reading this right it implies there is a human watching the junctions and clearing/controlling them? This would seem to allow more scope for improvement than a fully automated system. Do you know what gives the initial signal for the barriers to descend, is it a train passing over a certain point on the tracks?

At Sydney parade station this evening the barriers went down. Over 2 minutes later the northbound DART arrived and stopped at the station. It was a further 1.5 minutes or so before the train left and the barriers went back up. This was a single train and the barriers were down for the guts of 4 minutes for a 10 second event (the train passing the junction very slowly). This just seems massively inefficient.

With the idea that the barriers have to be down before they enter the station in case they overrun the station, how often does that happen? Is the driver the only thing stopping the train? Why could they not just delay whatever it is that's giving the signal to close each junction till the train is nearer the station, as I said it's frequently several minutes between barrier going down and train even reaching the station.

With the train overrunning, the platforms seem to be far longer than the train, the platform at Sydney Parade is circa 200m long. Could the trains not stop 100m from the end of the platform if they wanted to have built in leeway for if they somehow overrun?

I just can't imagine the way it's being done at the moment is the best possible way it can be done. I've lived very close to train junctions in the Netherlands and in Austria, in the case of the former, by tracks that had a more trains per day than where I'm living now. The barriers seemed to be down a fraction of the time they are here.

Agreed, I can't understand why they objected to that, it seemed a massive improvement to the current situation

/quote]

All crossings on the Dart network are automated. Yes there is CCTV and someone watching over it but the crossing itself will operate automatically once an oncoming train is detected rather than someone sitting in a room waiting to press a button.

You should read up about rail signalling and the blocks and how they work to get a better understanding of it.

There is no quick and easy fix to the situation. Sydney Parade works off signalling and train movements between Sandymount and Booterstown essentially.

The close proximity of stations and level crossings doesn't help. Once a Northbound DART has a proceed signal after leaving Booterstown its cleared to cross Merrion Gates and enter Sydney Parade station which means them gates need to be closed as well. There is not enough space to put in an additional set of signals inbetween Merrion Gates and the start of the platform which would allow a train to fully clear the Merrion Gates and accounts for the safe stopping distance needed. The line is also signalled for bi-directional movements which also narrows down the possibilities.

In terms of gates closing before the train enters the station not all trains are scheduled to stop there. The line speed also determines how long in advance the gates need to be closed which is highly reduced due to these crossings. A non stopping train will reach the gate before a stopping train would.

smackyB · 05-11-2019 9:22am

Hi OP, have you considered using the pedestrian bridge at the station to avoid the long wait? Just use your leap card to tag on at one side and then walk over the bridge and tag off at the other side and get the full amount credited back onto the card. You may have to wait a few seconds to be able to tag off again as I think there's a timeout of a minute or so between tagging on and off again.

magicbastarder · 05-11-2019 9:30am

i know it's not an operational issue, but in terms of prioritisation, the maths is interesting. an eight carriage DART has a capacity of something like 600 or 800 people, yeah? closing a road for five minutes to get 600 people through is reasonable; especially since getting that many people over the level crossing in cars would probably take half an hour.

bk · 05-11-2019 9:40am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know it's not an operational issue, but in terms of prioritisation, the maths is interesting. an eight carriage DART has a capacity of something like 600 or 800 people, yeah? closing a road for five minutes to get 600 people through is reasonable; especially since getting that many people over the level crossing in cars would probably take half an hour.

Up to 1,400 on a DART.

Which is why the only solution to these issues is to close the crossings and replace them with over/under passes.

magicbastarder · 05-11-2019 9:45am

wow. i had in my head that each carriage had a capacity of 100 or 120.

lucernarian · 05-11-2019 9:45am

Vic_08 wrote: »

So you don't have any understanding of how they work but you are sure they are "dysfunctional, incredibly conservative, etc. How about you reserve the judgement until you aren't pig ignorant of the topic?

The crossings are operating correctly and cannot have their sequences shortened without significantly disrupting the service or removing the safety features that make it exceedingly unlikely for a train to ever pass over a crossing that is occupied.

Railway crossings are governed by the railway signalling. In order for a train to pass the crossing needs to be closed and verified (signaller looks at CCTV of crossing) before the signal preceding it can be cleared. The crossing needs to be cleared in advance as railway signals operate in a chain, if the signal before the crossing is red the one before that will be yellow which will slow down the train, to run without disruption the crossing has to be cleared before the train is required to brake for the yellow.

I used to be a lot more active here and it's the tone and content of nasty and priggish posts like these that drive people away. Especially on the C&T forum, it's rife with crap like this.

As for the topic... yes it's true that other countries where the same laws of physics apply, where speed limits are often higher compared to the south Dublin crossings, still have shorter durations of closure. The Netherlands especially. Why is there such a difference?

Marty Bird · 05-11-2019 11:03am

OP I’ve been traveling on this line for many years in recent years they have actually made changes so the crossings are closed for shorter periods. But with the 10 min DART service something had to give.

Sam Russell · 05-11-2019 11:22am

At Sydney Parade, a North bound train triggers the gates 3 min before arriving, with the Merrion Gates closing at the same time as the SP gates. For South bound trains, the gates close 2 min before the train arrives. The gates open for NB trains some 30 to 40 seconds after the train clears the gates, and for SB trains it is immediately it clears the gates. As a general rule, the gates will always open after two trains pass, even if there is another waiting, but there are exceptions.

There are cameras fitted with ANPR that can detect and take procedings against motorists that try to 'beat' the gates and race through while the red lights flash and the gates close. The speed limit is 30 km/hour. As far as I know, no-one has been prosecuted to date by the system.

The Merrion Road traffic causes major tail backs in the evening that far exceed those caused by the gates.

The reason for the objections to the Merrion Gates improvement scheme was that it was wrapped into s cycle lane scheme that would take parking places and front gardens from locals on the Merrion Road. The project for the bridge was clever in that it was routed through two car parks, either side of the line - a brilliant low cost solution.

Pity it did not go ahead.

beauf · 05-11-2019 11:29am

lucernarian wrote: »

I used to be a lot more active here and it's the tone and content of nasty and priggish posts like these that drive people away. Especially on the C&T forum, it's rife with crap like this.

As for the topic... yes it's true that other countries where the same laws of physics apply, where speed limits are often higher compared to the south Dublin crossings, still have shorter durations of closure. The Netherlands especially. Why is there such a difference?

In fairness its a bit of naive question/premise for thread in the first place.

Who knows what you're comparing with in the Netherlands. Like with like? Budget, traffic on line? Bit of a how long is length of string.

An average of 11 people are killed on Dutch level crossings every year

The solution is to remove crossings entirely or build a bridge. My whole lifetime they've been arguing this on the trainline near me.

Jamie2k9 · 05-11-2019 11:58am

BlackandGreen wrote: »

I know the feeling OP. There are a good few intercity crossings I have to deal with and sometimes they do be down for excessive lengths of time.
There's a couple on the Waterford - Dublin and Wexford - Dublin line that even stay down for several minutes AFTER the train has passed.
I'd only hazard a guess it's down to inadequate and old signalling technology.

When you see countries able to lower and raise the crossing -/+ 30 seconds of the train it's a bit frustrating.
Hell even in the US with some of their rickety freight rural freight lines you see the crossing operated just as fast.

On another note.

There's a couple on the Clonmel - Waterford line manually operated, that do be closed for similar lenghts of time.
When the train pulls into Carrick on Suir from Clonmel, even though it's already passed the crossing, you have to wait for 5+ minutes until the train has stopped at the platform, moved off and then I think the same person who operates the signal box on the platform, has to walk back to the gates and open them long after the train has pulled away from the platform.
Can be frustrating.

Which ones on Waterford/Dublin route, this shouldn't be the case after the train passes.

Idbatterim · 05-11-2019 12:02pm

With the merrion gates scheme, could they ditch whatever issues are causing the scrapping of the plan ? This is ridiculous and specific to this banana republic , that nothing can get done to “ protect” the .01% from losing a few irrelevant meters to front gardens which they spend no time in ...

Sam Russell · 05-11-2019 12:24pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

With the merrion gates scheme, could they ditch whatever issues are causing the scrapping of the plan ? This is ridiculous and specific to this banana republic , that nothing can get done to “ protect” the .01% from losing a few irrelevant meters to front gardens which they spend no time in ...

It was part of a larger scheme to bury the costs. If it was stand alone, it would need justifying, and a cost/benefit analysis, and a load of other procurement stuff - and all for a bit of a bridge, and who would be bothered enough to get involved in such a project?.

It was really part of Dart Expansion, and was to be sneaked in as part of something else. If it was built, the SP gates would remain, but the traffic would be just local as it would be more effective to use the bridge.

Before my time, but I believe that before the Dart (1982), the SP level crossing used to close for much longer than it does now, so count you blessings.

cdaly_ · 05-11-2019 1:07pm

IE 222 wrote: »

You should read up about rail signalling and the blocks and how they work to get a better understanding of it.

The line speed also determines how long in advance the gates need to be closed which is highly reduced due to these crossings. A non stopping train will reach the gate before a stopping train would.

This is really the crux of the matter. This line is used by intercity and commuter trains as well as Dart. The gates must be closed long enough in advance for a non-stop train to not have to slow for the crossing.

blobert wrote: »

I would argue it's the exact opposite, motorists speed up/try to get through because they know they will have a crazy wait time if they do not. They also know that, after the barriers go down that it will be several minutes before any train arrives. I know personally I'll normally speed up coming up to the barriers out of fear of getting stuck behind them for ages.

I'm sure it must be possible to have a system that is as safe as reasonably possible while not having the barriers closed for as much of the day as they currently are. I think this has been exacerbated by the more frequent DARTS, if there's a train every 10 minutes in each direction for much of the day then you've essentially got the barriers down for several minutes every 5 minutes or so which will really add up.

I always make sure I have a book with me in the car. Makes waiting time into 'me time'...

Sam Russell wrote: »

Before my time, but I believe that before the Dart (1982), the SP level crossing used to close for much longer than it does now, so count you blessings.

While true, the frequency of trains was far lower. Outside of rush hour there would have been gaps of 90min+.

blobert · 05-11-2019 6:19pm

The line speed also determines how long in advance the gates need to be closed which is highly reduced due to these crossings. A non stopping train will reach the gate before a stopping train would.

This is really the crux of the matter. This line is used by intercity and commuter trains as well as Dart. The gates must be closed long enough in advance for a non-stop train to not have to slow for the crossing.

This is kind of what I thought the issue would be, that the system has to work for non stopping trains as well as the DARTs even though DARTs probably account for 90%+ of the trains coming through.

I'm guessing there is an overall low speed limit for this section of track also.

So how would this work, or why would it not work, in terms of improving things?

(1) I'm estimating 90%+ of the trains are DARTs and will stop in all stations

(2) Set whatever system they have for starting the barriers to close to trigger much later. Let's say at the moment it's 1.5km from the junction change it to 750m (these are just random figures)

(3) The DARTs will probably be fine as they will be stopping shortly before the junction in most cases or just after, ie they have to be going slow at the junctions.

(4) In the case of commuter/other trains (the less than 10%), we reduce their speed further if needs be so that the new shorter distance from the junction is still safe, ie while going at 20kmph or whatever it is that they can still safely stop in the 750m before the junction in the very unlikely event of someone being stuck. Other point I'd make on this is we're dealing with a hugely straight length of track, ie you can see 1+km ahead, so even if someone is stuck several junctions ahead, the train driver will be able to see this from a huge distance and stop in plenty of time.

(5) I watch trains go by all day here and the commuter trains seem to always be crawling, I have no idea what the limit is but I suspect they are already going far below it so I dont think they would be affected much by a lowering of their speed. We're also talking about a 2.5km stretch of track from Lansdowne to Merrion gates so even if the speed was reduced from 30kmph to 20kmph it would make minimal difference in a journey to Rosslare or wherever. Like I say I suspect the actual average speed trains are currently traveling at on this stretch of track is well below what the limit is.

Would this work?

Finally I'd agree that the Merrion Gates bridge or digging under the tracks at the junctions would be by far the best solution. But I dont' see that happening anytime soon.

I'm thinking if it is possible to improve the situation for all the thousands of people negatively affected by the junction system as it is, while not noticeably if at all degrading the experience of the many more thousands of people using the trains, then that would be the easier fix.

It would also be easier to accomplish, ie you can sell it to Eoghan Murphy or similar as somthing he can get done to make him/Irish Rail look great with a lot less effort than building bridges/digging tunnels.

Any further advice would be much appreciated.

cdaly_ · 05-11-2019 6:45pm

As already mentioned:

IE 222 wrote: »

You should read up about rail signalling and the blocks and how they work to get a better understanding of it.

cdaly_ · 05-11-2019 6:48pm

blobert wrote: »

I'm thinking if it is possible to improve the situation for all the thousands of people negatively affected by the junction system as it is, while not noticeably if at all degrading the experience of the many more thousands of people using the trains, then that would be the easier fix.

Most of those thousands are Dart users. Improving the situation for them would mean closing the crossings permanently, improving the Connolly station signalling mess and expanding the cross Liffey connector. Then you get increased Dart frequency and better capacity.

end of the road · 05-11-2019 7:38pm

blobert wrote: »

This is kind of what I thought the issue would be, that the system has to work for non stopping trains as well as the DARTs even though DARTs probably account for 90%+ of the trains coming through.

I'm guessing there is an overall low speed limit for this section of track also.

So how would this work, or why would it not work, in terms of improving things?

(1) I'm estimating 90%+ of the trains are DARTs and will stop in all stations

(2) Set whatever system they have for starting the barriers to close to trigger much later. Let's say at the moment it's 1.5km from the junction change it to 750m (these are just random figures)

(3) The DARTs will probably be fine as they will be stopping shortly before the junction in most cases or just after, ie they have to be going slow at the junctions.

(4) In the case of commuter/other trains (the less than 10%), we reduce their speed further if needs be so that the new shorter distance from the junction is still safe, ie while going at 20kmph or whatever it is that they can still safely stop in the 750m before the junction in the very unlikely event of someone being stuck. Other point I'd make on this is we're dealing with a hugely straight length of track, ie you can see 1+km ahead, so even if someone is stuck several junctions ahead, the train driver will be able to see this from a huge distance and stop in plenty of time.

(5) I watch trains go by all day here and the commuter trains seem to always be crawling, I have no idea what the limit is but I suspect they are already going far below it so I dont think they would be affected much by a lowering of their speed. We're also talking about a 2.5km stretch of track from Lansdowne to Merrion gates so even if the speed was reduced from 30kmph to 20kmph it would make minimal difference in a journey to Rosslare or wherever. Like I say I suspect the actual average speed trains are currently traveling at on this stretch of track is well below what the limit is.

Would this work?

Finally I'd agree that the Merrion Gates bridge or digging under the tracks at the junctions would be by far the best solution. But I dont' see that happening anytime soon.

I'm thinking if it is possible to improve the situation for all the thousands of people negatively affected by the junction system as it is, while not noticeably if at all degrading the experience of the many more thousands of people using the trains, then that would be the easier fix.

It would also be easier to accomplish, ie you can sell it to Eoghan Murphy or similar as somthing he can get done to make him/Irish Rail look great with a lot less effort than building bridges/digging tunnels.

Any further advice would be much appreciated.

your idea is non-workable because it reduces safety and it emboldens the residents to refuse to except any actual sollutions to deal with those crossings which ultimately need to go.
the residents are the minority. the railway has to be prioritized over the motorists.

magicbastarder · 05-11-2019 7:45pm

i commute along the strand road and have mused before that if i lived there, i'd welcome the merrion gates being closed permanently. the issue with the strand road is the east link - so much traffic, including quite a lot of heavy traffic, originates from the east link and there's no clear routing of this traffic in a decent manner.

Sam Russell · 05-11-2019 7:47pm

end of the road wrote: »

your idea is non-workable because it reduces safety and it emboldens the residents to refuse to except any actual sollutions to deal with those crossings which ultimately need to go.
the residents are the minority. the railway has to be prioritized over the motorists.

Not entirely true.

The Merrion Gates project was to ease the delays to traffic on Strand Road going towards Blackrock. This is a substantial problem. If that one project was successfully implemented then much of the rest becomes less important.

Another approach might be to reduce the number of diesel trains south of GCD. Since there is now a ten minute Dart service, these trains crawl along behind a Dart, so why not just let the passengers take the Dart anyway - it would be no slower.

Also some SB peek hour Darts could turn at DL, these would be extra over the ten minute service (if they had the rolling stock).

Well, of course, when one problem tries to find a solution, it uncovers other problems that make it all worse.

donvito99 · 05-11-2019 7:57pm

blobert wrote: »

I would argue it's the exact opposite, motorists speed up/try to get through because they know they will have a crazy wait time if they do not. They also know that, after the barriers go down that it will be several minutes before any train arrives. I know personally I'll normally speed up coming up to the barriers out of fear of getting stuck behind them for ages.

Unbelievable.

'Let me threaten the lives of myself and hundreds of others on an approaching train because I don't want to wait for a few minutes in my car'.

If you live East of the Dart line on the southside you knew full well when you moved that access in the area is limited in order to facilitate a safe and vital transport link in the City and region as a whole.

Sam Russell · 05-11-2019 8:04pm

Of course one of the reasons for the long delay is the large number of cars and trucks that try to beat the gates and drive recklessly through the red flashing lights as the gates descend. If they respected them, then perhaps, perhaps Irish Rail might review the amount of time needed before the gates need to be safe.

IE 222 · 05-11-2019 9:44pm

blobert wrote: »

This is kind of what I thought the issue would be, that the system has to work for non stopping trains as well as the DARTs even though DARTs probably account for 90%+ of the trains coming through.

I'm guessing there is an overall low speed limit for this section of track also.

So how would this work, or why would it not work, in terms of improving things?

(1) I'm estimating 90%+ of the trains are DARTs and will stop in all stations

(2) Set whatever system they have for starting the barriers to close to trigger much later. Let's say at the moment it's 1.5km from the junction change it to 750m (these are just random figures)

(3) The DARTs will probably be fine as they will be stopping shortly before the junction in most cases or just after, ie they have to be going slow at the junctions.

(4) In the case of commuter/other trains (the less than 10%), we reduce their speed further if needs be so that the new shorter distance from the junction is still safe, ie while going at 20kmph or whatever it is that they can still safely stop in the 750m before the junction in the very unlikely event of someone being stuck. Other point I'd make on this is we're dealing with a hugely straight length of track, ie you can see 1+km ahead, so even if someone is stuck several junctions ahead, the train driver will be able to see this from a huge distance and stop in plenty of time.

(5) I watch trains go by all day here and the commuter trains seem to always be crawling, I have no idea what the limit is but I suspect they are already going far below it so I dont think they would be affected much by a lowering of their speed. We're also talking about a 2.5km stretch of track from Lansdowne to Merrion gates so even if the speed was reduced from 30kmph to 20kmph it would make minimal difference in a journey to Rosslare or wherever. Like I say I suspect the actual average speed trains are currently traveling at on this stretch of track is well below what the limit is.

Would this work?

Finally I'd agree that the Merrion Gates bridge or digging under the tracks at the junctions would be by far the best solution. But I dont' see that happening anytime soon.

I'm thinking if it is possible to improve the situation for all the thousands of people negatively affected by the junction system as it is, while not noticeably if at all degrading the experience of the many more thousands of people using the trains, then that would be the easier fix.

It would also be easier to accomplish, ie you can sell it to Eoghan Murphy or similar as somthing he can get done to make him/Irish Rail look great with a lot less effort than building bridges/digging tunnels.

Any further advice would be much appreciated.

No, its impossible.

It doesn't work like that. You got to remember a train cant just grind to a halt the same way a car does. A train could have 100s of people onboard standing and cramped ect. unlike a car so safety needs to be at the forefront here.

Level crossings have 2 signals, the first been the warning signal, and the second I think is called the protection signal. Warning signals need to be 1.3km - 1.5km from the crossing and the protection signal needs to be no less than 200m away. In this case the warning signal is located just after Booterstown which I'm guessing doubles up as the protection signal for Merrion Gates also. The protection signal is located just before the platform. The strike in, the trigger that detects a train and begins to close the gate is determined by timeframes. The process is to start once the fastest possible train is 40 seconds away. A slowing train and then stopping train is going to skew this.

Reducing line speed will have zero effect as explained above regarding the timeframe. The current speed IIRC is 40mph on this section. DARTS reach this speed and Intercity does as well if there not been held up. The high number of crossings in close proximity slows everything down.

magicbastarder · 05-11-2019 11:58pm

let's say you could - with some reasonably superficial tweaks - reclaim six minutes out of every hour for cars. as in; if the gates were originally down for eighteen minutes in the hour (this is just an illustration, not based on actual gate closing times) and you reduce that to twelve, so a 33% reduction in gates being closed.
with those six extra minutes, you could expect a probable maximum of 120 cars in each direction traversing the level crossing (one car every three seconds for the six minutes), or 240 cars in both directions with a probable human capacity of around 300.
that's around 25% the capacity of a single (full) train, in one hour - and it's worth pointing out that those are numbers being inconvenienced, not being rendered unable to travel - unless the road is at full capacity for the entire time it's open.

i guess what i'm saying here is that the logical thing to do is lay on more trains, and close the level crossings for longer to facilitate this.

Idbatterim · 06-11-2019 12:10am

So the gates need to be down for ages , In case someone drives into the tracks and reckons they shouldn’t get out of a car in sub 90 seconds ?! Why aren’t the luas crossings operated on the same principle ?

Vic_08 · 06-11-2019 12:16am

BlackandGreen wrote: »

These kinds of comments are what make this website such a crappy place to browse sometimes. The irony of calling somebody pig ignorant while talking in such a tone. The hell is your problem?
Just answer the question nicely. Not everyone is a train gazing know it all.

The only irony is that you appear not to understand the definition of ignorance.

The OP was and despite having the topic explained to him by a number of posters, still remains ignorant of how and why railway crossings do not operate how he would like them to.

I'd bet you wouldn't take kindly to someone turning up, admitting they knew nothing about your line of work and then spouting off about how you are doing everything wrong and they are here to put you straight.

Yes my response wasn't polite. Ask a polite question; get a polite response, rant about how the experts in a field you know nothing about are crap at their jobs; get put in your place.

lucernarian wrote: »

I used to be a lot more active here and it's the tone and content of nasty and priggish posts like these that drive people away. Especially on the C&T forum, it's rife with crap like this.

People who want to get a reasonable answer to something they know nothing about don't generally start by offloading a bunch of derogatory opinions of the people who run the system they wish to know about.

As is obvious from his follow up responses, he is not interested in finding out the facts, only pushing his agenda to get the crossing sequences shortened to suit himself.

lucernarian wrote: »

As for the topic... yes it's true that other countries where the same laws of physics apply, where speed limits are often higher compared to the south Dublin crossings, still have shorter durations of closure. The Netherlands especially. Why is there such a difference?

Different crossings are operated to different standards, from fully controlled like those being discussed to user operated gates with no oversight, protection or warning for trains.

This is true in Ireland as well as across Europe. In general it is the type of road and the traffic on it that will be more important than the rail traffic for determining the level of protection applied. Urban high traffic roads with mixed pedestrian, vehicle and cycle traffic will always be high on the list for maximum protection. The fact that these are also the crossings that there is also the most disturbance from lengthy closures is unfortunate but inevitable, if they were quiet with bugger all traffic they wouldn't pose as much risk having a lower standard crossing.

Like it or not the first and most important factor is safety, these crossings are about as safe as you can get short of having armed guards with rifles stopping the traffic. Unlike our roads where a casual attitude to safety and in particular an unbelievably poor adherence to stopping at red lights pervades our railways operate on the basis of being 100% safe.

By an order of magnitude the weakest link in safe railway operation is road crossings and the poor behaviour of road users, the idea of degrading the safety of some of the busiest crossings in the country to reduce inconvenience to those same road users by reducing the protections the current operations have is just not going to happen, nobody in IE would do it and the railway safety authority would not sign off on it.

Were it done and a train ploughed through cars and pedestrians on a crossing it would be the very same people like the OP demanding all and sundry responsible be crucified for putting the public in danger.

Vic_08 · 06-11-2019 12:19am

Idbatterim wrote: »

So the gates need to be down for ages , In case someone drives into the tracks and reckons they shouldn’t get out of a car in sub 90 seconds ?! Why aren’t the luas crossings operated on the same principle ?

Because trams run to an entirely different and much lower safety standard. They are driven by line of sight not signalling, generally run slower, are smaller and lighter, have better stopping ability AND as as a consequence do actually hit road vehicles relatively frequently.

IE 222 · 06-11-2019 8:13am

Idbatterim wrote: »

So the gates need to be down for ages , In case someone drives into the tracks and reckons they shouldn’t get out of a car in sub 90 seconds ?! Why aren’t the luas crossings operated on the same principle ?

No, the gates need to be down so the train doesn't have to stop or slow down.

Its actually in the motorist interest for the gates to close as soon as they can so the train can pass at line speed. A train that needs to stop or slow down for a crossing is going to take longer to clear it.

ED E · 06-11-2019 8:26am

OP seems to have his head in the sand.

It can't be done
But but this
It can't be done
But but that
it can't be done
But but the other

Live with it. Move. There is not room for optimization.

magicbastarder · 06-11-2019 9:24am

FWIW, i got caught at the merrion gates this morning just after 7am, and seem to have been stationary for about one and a half minutes - the train passing through was northbound, so slowing as it came past.

Utter Consternation · 06-11-2019 1:57pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know it's not an operational issue, but in terms of prioritisation, the maths is interesting. an eight carriage DART has a capacity of something like 600 or 800 people, yeah? closing a road for five minutes to get 600 people through is reasonable; especially since getting that many people over the level crossing in cars would probably take half an hour.

But, but, cars duh!!!!

bikeman1 · 06-11-2019 2:43pm

I always find it funny, "oh God there is a massive tailback of at least 30 cars waiting for one train".

Then you remind them that there is maximum 50 people in the 30 cars, meanwhile said train will have a few hundred!!

Close up Lansdowne Rd., Sandymount, Sydney Parade. Leave Serpentine Ave. as the sole crossing with even more priority to rail and then proceed with the plans for removing the Merrion Gates. Speed up the trains and speed up the cars.

blobert · 06-11-2019 4:54pm

Thanks very much for the replies guys.

I certainly don't mean to come across as thinking I know better or that I am anything but very ignorant of how it works, but, I do think it's fair to say that it is at least possible, that the current system may not be 100% optimal, it would be a very rare system that is. I stand at these barriers multiple times a day waiting for minutes for trains to eventually pass at very low speeds. I don't think it's that crazy to suggest that perhaps, if the real world average train speed is very low and it's taking several minutes for the train to arrive from the barriers closing, then perhaps in some way the barriers are going down to early for the actual profile of trains going by at this very specific piece of track? Now obviously within that you have the limits of how the system works (which I fully admit I don't understand).

Couple more questions for anyone with a good understanding of this, which many of you seem to have:

No, its impossible.

It doesn't work like that. You got to remember a train cant just grind to a halt the same way a car does. A train could have 100s of people onboard standing and cramped ect. unlike a car so safety needs to be at the forefront here.

Level crossings have 2 signals, the first been the warning signal, and the second I think is called the protection signal. Warning signals need to be 1.3km - 1.5km from the crossing and the protection signal needs to be no less than 200m away. In this case the warning signal is located just after Booterstown which I'm guessing doubles up as the protection signal for Merrion Gates also. The protection signal is located just before the platform. The strike in, the trigger that detects a train and begins to close the gate is determined by timeframes. The process is to start once the fastest possible train is 40 seconds away. A slowing train and then stopping train is going to skew this.

Reducing line speed will have zero effect as explained above regarding the timeframe. The current speed IIRC is 40mph on this section. DARTS reach this speed and Intercity does as well if there not been held up. The high number of crossings in close proximity slows everything down.

Thanks, I completely understand that a train need a greater stopping distance than other vehicles and probably even greater in some conditions like leaves on track etc.

You'd mentioned that the initial signal goes off when the train is 1.3km to 1.5km away.

And this is to cover how long it might take for the fastest possible train going at the speed limit might take to stop safely going at 40mph/65kmph.

I understand this also.

However, my point is that none, or a very tiny fraction of trains are going to be going at anywhere near this speed on this 2.5km section of track. DARTS are stopping 3/4 times with several of the stops very close together. If they are managing to get to 40mph back to 0 over a couple of hundred metres it's going to be massively fuel inefficient and unpleasant for passengers. The commuter train might manage to get to this speed briefly if there is a clear section of track but it's going to have to catch up with a DART and be stuck behind it, ie again just wasting fuel. I've also never seen a commuter train doing anything but crawling along this section of track. Some late night freight train is irrelevant as it's such an outlier, limiting these few trains to a lower speed for a few km does not affect anyone to any great extent. Though as I say, I suspect the reason for the barriers closing so early is that it's set up to be safe for this outlier fast train, when the solution would be to just slow these oddities down.

So my question is, if the trains are already not going fast and you were to set a realistic speed limit (lets say 50kmph) for this section, why could you not move the initial signaling point closer from 1.5km out to somthing like 750m? I don't think anyone has answered this one yet. I assume these distances have to be varieable based on train speed, ie if you added a TGV like train to these tracks doing 200kmph+ then the 1.5km warning would not end well.

If the fastest train is able to safely stop from top speed at that limit and all DARTS etc are more comfortably, how does this not improve things?

My point is if the system is set up to cover the possibility of a train going at a much higher speed than they ever do, why can't you limit the speed (which does not affect 99% of trains) and safely lower the stopping distance?

I have no idea what the safe stopping distance of a DART/Commuter train is at 50kmph but I'm guessing it's way less than 1.5km. I found this, probably not relevant at all but, suggests a diesel commuter at 70mph/113kmph takes 816m to stop (and less in an emergency) So I'm assuming a commuter train at 50kmph or probably far less is going to be able to stop in far less than that?

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/2002/nov/21/diesel-trains-stopping-distances

If anyone could explain why what I'm suggesting is impossible I'd appreciate it.

There's also a lot of discussion of how the train should have priority over cars. I completely agree with this. But what I'm suggesting is that, if there's a way to improve the situation for all the people stuck at barriers, while not negatively affecting the experience of the people on the trains, then I think that would be a no brainer. I also think the extent of the number of people inconvenienced by the barriers on this section of line may be greater than being suggested.

As per an example:

let's say you could - with some reasonably superficial tweaks - reclaim six minutes out of every hour for cars. as in; if the gates were originally down for eighteen minutes in the hour (this is just an illustration, not based on actual gate closing times) and you reduce that to twelve, so a 33% reduction in gates being closed.
with those six extra minutes, you could expect a probable maximum of 120 cars in each direction traversing the level crossing (one car every three seconds for the six minutes), or 240 cars in both directions with a probable human capacity of around 300.
that's around 25% the capacity of a single (full) train, in one hour - and it's worth pointing out that those are numbers being inconvenienced, not being rendered unable to travel - unless the road is at full capacity for the entire time it's open.

i guess what i'm saying here is that the logical thing to do is lay on more trains, and close the level crossings for longer to facilitate this.

This is a good point however every time a train comes by you have a buildup of traffic at 5 crossings for that one train in this 2.5km stretch not just one. So you'd be looking at x5 times your figure of extra people getting through if the barrier closed time is reduced.

I still think there are going to be more people on peak DARTs than backed up at barriers, but my point is, I think there must be someway in which you could improve the experience of the people stuck at the barriers while not negatively affecting the experience of the people on the train.

Thanks again for all the replies, both positive and negative!

end of the road · 06-11-2019 5:31pm

the system that exists at these crossings is the most optimal possible and there are no changes that can be made.
slowing down trains further will just take them longer to clear the crossings.
every possible outcome no matter how remote has to be considered when deciding the optimal closing time for safety reasons.
the only way to end the not really inconvenience for motorists without negatively effecting the train users is to close the crossings, otherwise motorists will just have to accept that crossing closure times are going to increase.

Del.Monte · 06-11-2019 6:11pm

Shure none of this traffic congestion would have happened if the 'powers that be' had been allowed to bulldoze the Eastern Bypass across Sandymount Strand and Booterstown nature reserve.

TheChrisD · 06-11-2019 6:24pm

blobert wrote: »

With the idea that the barriers have to be down before they enter the station in case they overrun the station, how often does that happen? Is the driver the only thing stopping the train? Why could they not just delay whatever it is that's giving the signal to close each junction till the train is nearer the station, as I said it's frequently several minutes between barrier going down and train even reaching the station.

With the train overrunning, the platforms seem to be far longer than the train, the platform at Sydney Parade is circa 200m long. Could the trains not stop 100m from the end of the platform if they wanted to have built in leeway for if they somehow overrun?

100m spare in case of an overrun is nothing, especially when we get into the gist of a wet autumn/winter and leaves on the line become a major hazard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoSgU-7BiV4

blobert · 06-11-2019 6:33pm

TheChrisD wrote: »

100m spare in case of an overrun is nothing, especially when we get into the gist of a wet autumn/winter and leaves on the line become a major hazard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoSgU-7BiV4

Thanks Chris, realise that waiting till the train is in the station to close barrier won't work so have moved on to my ideas above!

IE 222 · 07-11-2019 2:02pm

Lowering the line speed will have the opposite effect to what it is your looking for. The signalling can't be relocated. Lowering the speed will only take the train longer to travel through the block.

The first warning signal is a reminder of danger ahead for the driver it doesn't necessarily mean the crossing gates will begin to close once the train has passed it.

My guess would be there is a strike in just after Booterstown for Merrion Gates followed by a second somewhere between that and the warning signal for Sydney Parade.

If the gates haven't closed on time the trains need to stop twice between Booterstown and Sydney Parade, where is the benefit in that?

blobert · 07-11-2019 10:57pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Lowering the line speed will have the opposite effect to what it is your looking for. The signalling can't be relocated. Lowering the speed will only take the train longer to travel through the block.

The first warning signal is a reminder of danger ahead for the driver it doesn't necessarily mean the crossing gates will begin to close once the train has passed it.

Surely the signalling can be relocated or adjusted?

It's still not clear to me how the barriers closing is activated, based on comments here I understood this to be when it crosses a certain point x distance from the junction. The distance was based on the fastest train going at the line speed.

My point was if the trains are all going well under the line speed, if you lower the line speed and thus reduce the distance needed for the train to safely stop (because the max speed is now lower) the trains can still travel at the speed they do and the barriers wont close as early.

A quick look at Wikipedia suggests this might be exactly the issue and perhaps the system Irish Rail are using is outdated?

At most crossings, the signals will activate about 30 seconds before the train arrives.The gates will be fully lowered 15 to 20 seconds before the train arrives. The gates will rise and the signals will shut off once the end of the train clears the island circuit.

This ties in to my experience everywhere in the world except on the tracks beside me

The design goal of the grade crossing predictor is to provide a consistent warning time for trains approaching a grade crossing.

Before this invention, the circuits used for activating a crossing's warning devices were very simple, activated whenever a train came within a fixed distance (hundreds or thousands of feet) of the crossing. This method required that the crossing be designed to accommodate a train approaching at the track speed limit, which leads to longer warning times for trains approaching the crossing at lower speeds. Very slow trains could have many minutes of warning time, thus delaying highway traffic unnecessarily.

Again this sounds very like what's happening here?

Any further input would be much appreciated.

IE 222 · 08-11-2019 12:08am

blobert wrote: »

Surely the signalling can be relocated or adjusted?

It's still not clear to me how the barriers closing is activated, based on comments here I understood this to be when it crosses a certain point x distance from the junction. The distance was based on the fastest train going at the line speed.

My point was if the trains are all going well under the line speed, if you lower the line speed and thus reduce the distance needed for the train to safely stop (because the max speed is now lower) the trains can still travel at the speed they do and the barriers wont close as early.

A quick look at Wikipedia suggests this might be exactly the issue and perhaps the system Irish Rail are using is outdated?

This ties in to my experience everywhere in the world except on the tracks beside me

Again this sounds very like what's happening here?

Any further input would be much appreciated.

I don't get why your so determined to challenge this.

How is reducing the speed and distance going to change things. Regardless of the line speed the train still needs to trigger the strike in, to close the gates, 40 seconds before it reaches the crossing or in this case the platform. The train is still going to take the same length of time to travel from point A-B. The trains reach line speed, it's not some figure they pulled from thin air. Moving the trigger point for Sydney Parade gates will likely result in trains stopping and blocking the Merrion Gates.

Your better off lobbying Eoghan Murphy to close the gates to traffic and install a footbridge instead.

IE 222 · 08-11-2019 12:09am

blobert wrote: »

Surely the signalling can be relocated or adjusted?

It's still not clear to me how the barriers closing is activated, based on comments here I understood this to be when it crosses a certain point x distance from the junction. The distance was based on the fastest train going at the line speed.

My point was if the trains are all going well under the line speed, if you lower the line speed and thus reduce the distance needed for the train to safely stop (because the max speed is now lower) the trains can still travel at the speed they do and the barriers wont close as early.

A quick look at Wikipedia suggests this might be exactly the issue and perhaps the system Irish Rail are using is outdated?

This ties in to my experience everywhere in the world except on the tracks beside me

Again this sounds very like what's happening here?

Any further input would be much appreciated.

I don't get why your so determined to challenge this.

How is reducing the speed and distance going to change things. Regardless of the line speed the train still needs to trigger the strike in, to close the gates, 40 seconds before it reaches the crossing or in this case the platform. The train is still going to take the same length of time to travel from point A-B. The trains reach line speed, it's not some figure they pulled from thin air. Moving the trigger point for Sydney Parade gates will likely result in trains stopping and blocking the Merrion Gates.

Your better off lobbying Eoghan Murphy to close the gates to traffic and install a footbridge instead.

lucernarian · 08-11-2019 11:35am

beauf wrote: »

In fairness its a bit of naive question/premise for thread in the first place.

Who knows what you're comparing with in the Netherlands. Like with like? Budget, traffic on line? Bit of a how long is length of string.

In fairness nothing, there's no (good) reason for people to reply like assholes or speak in a way most folks wouldn't dream of doing with colleagues, customers, acquaintances or even strangers.

I think the salient part of the question is obvious. Why would a barrier need be closed for 3 mins before a train arrives while in the Netherlands I observed it closed for 90 seconds on a track that had a 100kph speed limit? Like, it's not a rhetorical question, there must be specific reasons for why this happens especially at the likes of Sydney Parade.

Level Crossings @ Lansdowne, Sandymount, Sydney Parade: Excessive Length of Time Down

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