Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

brendanwalsh · 31-10-2019 02:55AM

Some crimes are so heinous that the perpetrators deserve death, both as a punishment, as a prevention for the rest of society and as a form of genetic cleansing of the human race

This is one of those cases

tuxy · 31-10-2019 03:07AM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Some crimes are so heinous that the perpetrators deserve death, both as a punishment, as a prevention for the rest of society and as a form of genetic cleansing of the human race

This is one of those cases

The prevention part of it does not work, as proven in many societies around the world.
What's the theory behind the genetic cleansing? That's a new one to me and I know nothing about it.
The siblings of the boys have not committed any crimes, should they be cleansed since they hold the same genetic code?

Hannibal_Smith · 31-10-2019 07:17AM

Suckit wrote: »

I know the question wasn't directed at me, and I think I get where you are coming from (obviously I can't know), and I guess I would probably normally agree with you.

But. Tonight I have met a friend who lives abroad and we had a few drinks.....
This came up.

A large part of me (tonight) thinks that if the boys knew that as 12/13 year olds they could be hanged for murder, then not only would they not have gone through with it. They mightn't even have planned it.
I don't for one second believe that everything up to Ana's murder was not planned.

Getting caught and punished wasn't in their game plan at all. So I don't think the likelihood of being hanged would have mattered. They thought they were too clever for everyone. If Ana's dad hadn't noticed it was boy b at the door would they have been caught?

With the cctv footage, they weren't able to pick out boy b and say it was him, as far as I remember. It was only knowing she left with him, they were able to work out it was him.

Boy b was so calm in the interviews he thought they were home and dry.

That's probably the most chilling part about it. They never thought they would get caught to be punished. Even now, I don't think boy a admitting to anything stems from remorse. I think it's an attempt to help himself get a lighter punishment.

They still don't get it.

splinter65 · 31-10-2019 07:26AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Getting caught and punished wasn't in their game plan at all. So I don't think the likelihood of being hanged would have mattered. They thought they were too clever for everyone. If Ana's dad hadn't noticed it was boy b at the door would they have been caught?

With the cctv footage, they weren't able to pick out boy b and say it was him, as far as I remember. It was only knowing she left with him, they were able to work out it was him.

Boy b was so calm in the interviews he thought they were home and dry.

That's probably the most chilling part about it. They never thought they would get caught to be punished. Even now, I don't think boy a admitting to anything stems from remorse. I think it's an attempt to help himself get a lighter punishment.

They still don't get it.

It was Anas brother who answered the door to boy b that evening. Boy b would have known that the brother would be able to identify him later on. And he still didn’t shirk from the plan. Get Ana to the deserted house.

Hannibal_Smith · 31-10-2019 08:17AM

splinter65 wrote: »

It was Anas brother who answered the door to boy b that evening. Boy b would have known that the brother would be able to identify him later on. And he still didn’t shirk from the plan. Get Ana to the deserted house.

Patric was relaxing outside, taking in the May sunshine, when, at 4.55pm, he heard the doorbell. It was Boy B. He asked for Ana. When her father told her who was at the door, Ana was confused. She knew who the boy was, but they were by no means friends. Nonetheless she went down and spoke to him.

It was Anas father who answered the door. They had to look on facebook to try and find his surname because they only vaguely knew him.

Road-Hog · 31-10-2019 08:50AM

tuxy wrote: »

The prevention part of it does not work, as proven in many societies around the world.
What's the theory behind the genetic cleansing? That's a new one to me and I know nothing about it.
The siblings of the boys have not committed any crimes, should they be cleansed since they hold the same genetic code?

If these two degenerates get say ten years in the ‘detention centre’ / holding Pen and get assessed after 6/7 years and are deemed reformed and no longer a threat to society is there any option to ‘tag and track’ then for the rest of their lives, impose curfews on them etc.......?

Ulysses Gaze · 31-10-2019 08:52AM

Road-Hog wrote: »

If these two degenerates get say ten years in the ‘detention centre’ / holding Pen and get assessed after 6/7 years and are deemed reformed and no longer a threat to society is there any option to ‘tag and track’ then for the rest of their lives, impose curfews on them etc.......?

Probably against their "Human Rights" to do so.

ohnonotgmail · 31-10-2019 08:57AM

Road-Hog wrote: »

If these two degenerates get say ten years in the ‘detention centre’ / holding Pen and get assessed after 6/7 years and are deemed reformed and no longer a threat to society is there any option to ‘tag and track’ then for the rest of their lives, impose curfews on them etc.......?

if they get a life sentence they will be on licence for the rest of their life.

splinter65 · 31-10-2019 09:01AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Patric was relaxing outside, taking in the May sunshine, when, at 4.55pm, he heard the doorbell. It was Boy B. He asked for Ana. When her father told her who was at the door, Ana was confused. She knew who the boy was, but they were by no means friends. Nonetheless she went down and spoke to him.

It was Anas father who answered the door. They had to look on facebook to try and find his surname because they only vaguely knew him.

You’re absolutely correct. I had it in my head that the brother could name him on sight. My bad. My point still stands though.
I don’t think boy b was bothered about being identified, do you? Might make you wonder if he did know what exactly was about to unfold.
The fact that he didn’t run for help either during the attack or after it makes him as bad as boy a in my mind.

Hannibal_Smith · 31-10-2019 09:21AM

splinter65 wrote: »

You’re absolutely correct. I had it in my head that the brother could name him on sight. My bad. My point still stands though.
I don’t think boy b was bothered about being identified, do you? Might make you wonder if he did know what exactly was about to unfold.
The fact that he didn’t run for help either during the attack or after it makes him as bad as boy a in my mind.

Like I say, I don't think he thought they'd figure out it was him who was involved. I thought I read somewhere that a garda said he looked surprised when they called to his door the first evening. But I could be wrong.

There's no way he isn't in it up to his neck.

Vicarious Function · 31-10-2019 10:46AM

Boy B wasn't all sweetness and light. He had founded a secret "zombie group" based on the "dark side" which had a list of rules. He had managed to attract a number of his classmates to join and sign up. He had remarked to the Gardai that Ana was not a person you would want to be seen with. I don't think he had planned on being seen by Ana's father, when he came knocking at the door, and that betweeen the Father and brother they could piece together who he was. That was the start of the collapse of whatever plan he and Boy A had.

splinter65 · 31-10-2019 10:56AM

Vicarious Function wrote: »

Boy B wasn't all sweetness and light. He had founded a secret "zombie group" based on the "dark side" which had a list of rules. He had managed to attract a number of his classmates to join and sign up. He had remarked to the Gardai that Ana was not a person you would want to be seen with. I don't think he had planned on being seen by Ana's father, when he came knocking at the door, and that betweeen the Father and brother they could piece together who he was. That was the start of the collapse of whatever plan he and Boy A had.

I think the surprise for boy b was that the authorities were looking for Ana so quickly and that he had been identified so soon. He was quite quite confident that he could lie his way out of it.
Adults are so stupid remember and will literally believe anything you tell them.
And he’d been careful not to touch her so no forensics.

Neyite · 31-10-2019 11:01AM

tayto lover wrote: »

I don’t know.
They were clever enough in their planning. Taking different routes and times returning from the murder house, taking her to it and planning what to say afterwards. These boys are clever schemers in my mind. They didn’t once behave like kids.

Yes, all that can be thought out and researched. It's the emotional intelligence and logic from life experience that an adult might possess is what I meant was lacking from their plan.

Teens are great for half arsed planning. For example they might plan to borrow a parent's car. But don't consider getting caught, or causing harm. Those facebook free gaff parties are another example. To a teen you have a free gaff and you want you want to throw an epic party. But you don't stop to consider what will happen when your 1000 friends on FB land in and set the house on fire. So while they planned in detail the event, they were not emotionally intelligent enough to consider forensics or that anyone would even look for her because as far as they were concerned everyone* hated her.

*when you are a teen, "everyone" consists of your peers at school. Parents and teachers are just embarrassingly irrelevant adults who don't have a clue and are out of touch with the world so didn't even factor in their considerations.

I don't know if I'm explaining it very well, sorry.

KWAG2019 · 31-10-2019 11:28AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if they get a life sentence they will be on licence for the rest of their life.

Do you know if there are stats on numbers of those who get life who are sent back to prison to serve out the remainder of the sentence?

Captain_Crash · 31-10-2019 11:36AM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Do you know if there are stats on numbers of those who get life who are sent back to prison to serve out the remainder of the sentence?

Ireland's longest serving prisoner John Shaw has been out a couple of times over the years but violated his license and is in for good. Don't have stats for how many go back tho.

splinter65 · 31-10-2019 11:36AM

Neyite wrote: »

Yes, all that can be thought out and researched. It's the emotional intelligence and logic from life experience that an adult might possess is what I meant was lacking from their plan.

Teens are great for half arsed planning. For example they might plan to borrow a parent's car. But don't consider getting caught, or causing harm. Those facebook free gaff parties are another example. To a teen you have a free gaff and you want you want to throw an epic party. But you don't stop to consider what will happen when your 1000 friends on FB land in and set the house on fire. So while they planned in detail the event, they were not emotionally intelligent enough to consider forensics or that anyone would even look for her because as far as they were concerned everyone* hated her.

*when you are a teen, "everyone" consists of your peers at school. Parents and teachers are just embarrassingly irrelevant adults who don't have a clue and are out of touch with the world so didn't even factor in their considerations.

I don't know if I'm explaining it very well, sorry.

I’m totally on the same wavelength as you. Even when boy b encountered Anas father at the door it never occurred to him that he could be looking for Ana later. It just wasn’t a concern for him.

ohnonotgmail · 31-10-2019 11:41AM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Do you know if there are stats on numbers of those who get life who are sent back to prison to serve out the remainder of the sentence?

those figures seem very hard to find.

Neyite · 31-10-2019 11:43AM

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m totally on the same wavelength as you. Even when boy b encountered Anas father at the door it never occurred to him that he could be looking for Ana later. It just wasn’t a concern for him.

Exactly, in lots of ways they showed typical teen behaviour albeit it was applied to extremely aberrant actions.

HildaOgdenx · 31-10-2019 12:56PM

Neyite wrote: »

Yes, all that can be thought out and researched. It's the emotional intelligence and logic from life experience that an adult might possess is what I meant was lacking from their plan.

Teens are great for half arsed planning. For example they might plan to borrow a parent's car. But don't consider getting caught, or causing harm. Those facebook free gaff parties are another example. To a teen you have a free gaff and you want you want to throw an epic party. But you don't stop to consider what will happen when your 1000 friends on FB land in and set the house on fire. So while they planned in detail the event, they were not emotionally intelligent enough to consider forensics or that anyone would even look for her because as far as they were concerned everyone* hated her.

*when you are a teen, "everyone" consists of your peers at school. Parents and teachers are just embarrassingly irrelevant adults who don't have a clue and are out of touch with the world so didn't even factor in their considerations.

I don't know if I'm explaining it very well, sorry.

I agree.

They thought no further than carrying out the horrendous murder, and seemed to think if they simply said nothing/ denied it after that, it would all just go away.

Suckit · 31-10-2019 12:57PM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Getting caught and punished wasn't in their game plan at all. So I don't think the likelihood of being hanged would have mattered. They thought they were too clever for everyone. If Ana's dad hadn't noticed it was boy b at the door would they have been caught?

With the cctv footage, they weren't able to pick out boy b and say it was him, as far as I remember. It was only knowing she left with him, they were able to work out it was him.

Boy b was so calm in the interviews he thought they were home and dry.

That's probably the most chilling part about it. They never thought they would get caught to be punished. Even now, I don't think boy a admitting to anything stems from remorse. I think it's an attempt to help himself get a lighter punishment.

They still don't get it.

Yes, I have to agree. They didn't think that they would be caught. Maybe they wouldn't, had Ana not fought back so vehemently.
Which led Boy A's father to bring him to the park where they bumped into the Garda, and he lied about being beaten by two 20 year olds. The same Garda that would call to his house later to ask if he had seen Ana. The Garda recognised him, and decided to get him to retrace his steps also.
The most important part was when the two boys chose different directions at a fork in the path and then looked at each other, which made the Gardaí take notice. So they split them up and Boy B's lies started coming thick and fast.

Up to then they had pretty much calculated for everything.

AllForIt · 31-10-2019 01:05PM

I think there should be two detention options for U18's. One as they are now and a new second option of an actual prison. The prison maybe holding youths up to the age of 21.

volchitsa · 31-10-2019 01:09PM

Suckit wrote: »

Yes, I have to agree. They didn't think that they would be caught. Maybe they wouldn't, had Ana not fought back so vehemently.
Which led Boy A's father to bring him to the park where they bumped into the Garda, and he lied about being beaten by two 20 year olds. The same Garda that would call to his house later to ask if he had seen Ana. The Garda recognised him, and decided to get him to retrace his steps also.
The most important part was when the two boys chose different directions at a fork in the path and then looked at each other, which made the Gardaí take notice. So they split them up and Boy B's lies started coming thick and fast.

Up to then they had pretty much calculated for everything.

I think that's true - it wasn't unreasonable for them to think they could get away with it. If Ana had been smaller and weaker, maybe they could have. And for sure one thing that male teens are not going to imagine is that a girl could possibly be a physical risk to them. They'd have no idea of what someone can do happens when they are fighting for their lives. Even a girl.

31-10-2019 01:38PM

AllForIt wrote: »

I think there should be two detention options for U18's. One as they are now and a new second option of an actual prison. The prison maybe holding youths up to the age of 21.

They used to have that. It was called St Patrick's Institution, right beside Mountjoy. It was deemed unfit for purpose going back less than a decade.

31-10-2019 01:42PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Do you know if there are stats on numbers of those who get life who are sent back to prison to serve out the remainder of the sentence?

I personally know two lifers this year alone that have been reincarcerated for misdemeanours after being out in the community or in open centres. There's a hell of a lot of more convicted murderers walking around out there than folks might think.

BarryD2 · 31-10-2019 02:17PM

Very sad case. Consider though that it's not unusual for kids to be cruel to other creatures, whether torturing small animals, pulling wings off butterflies etc etc. These lads seemingly applied the same type of thinking & elements of violence & sadism to a fellow human.

Doesn't necessarily mean they will behave that way again, no more than a group of lads who set a cat on fire, all turn out to be violent adults.

But whilst society can disapprove of cruelty to animals, it can't tolerate this for fellow humans. So there need to be very serious consequences for these two lads. A strong message from society to the rest of society that whilst they might be no great further threat, that what they did will not be tolerated. And if they suffer, well so be it.

KWAG2019 · 31-10-2019 02:18PM

Omackeral wrote: »

I personally know two lifers this year alone that have been reincarcerated for misdemeanours after being out in the community or in open centres. There's a hell of a lot of more convicted murderers walking around out there than folks might think.

I wonder does reincarceration mean to the end of her/ his natural life. I expect the terms of his license or whatever legalese they use allow for...variation. The whole are needs to be opened to public scrutiny. Interest groups, philosophies etcetc

salmocab · 31-10-2019 02:35PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I wonder does reincarceration mean to the end of her/ his natural life. I expect the terms of his license or whatever legalese they use allow for...variation. The whole are needs to be opened to public scrutiny. Interest groups, philosophies etcetc

I doubt something small like shop lifting would result in say a 50 year old who has served 25 years going back in until they die, it would surely mean a few years then back again n front of the board.

KWAG2019 · 31-10-2019 02:52PM

Omackeral wrote: »

I personally know two lifers this year alone that have been reincarcerated for misdemeanours after being out in the community or in open centres. There's a hell of a lot of more convicted murderers walking around out there than folks might think.

I forgot the obvious: how do we find out how many?

Suckit · 31-10-2019 03:08PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

Very sad case. Consider though that it's not unusual for kids to be cruel to other creatures, whether torturing small animals, pulling wings off butterflies etc etc. These lads seemingly applied the same type of thinking & elements of violence & sadism to a fellow human.

I would have thought that was very unusual, no?
I would never have dreamed of torturing small animals when I was a kid, and if I had seen anybody pulling wings of butterflies I'm pretty sure I would have given them a wide berth and possibly told any adults.

That would definitely not be considered 'usual' behaviour where I grew up.

volchitsa · 31-10-2019 03:22PM

Suckit wrote: »

I would have thought that was very unusual, no?
I would never have dreamed of torturing small animals when I was a kid, and if I had seen anybody pulling wings of butterflies I'm pretty sure I would have given them a wide berth and possibly told any adults.

That would definitely not be considered 'usual' behaviour where I grew up.

No it's not normal. In fact I gather that deliberate cruelty to animals in children is actually understood nowadays to be a very bad sign that there a risk of future psychological problems.

(To be clear, some limited experimentation like pulling wings off flies, especially in smaller children who haven't yet developed much empathy, doesn't necessarily mean much, but inflicting pain on animals for the sake of inflicting pain is what's concerning.)

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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