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E-scooter court case

  • 23-10-2019 3:25pm
    #1
    ...Ghost...
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,763 ✭✭✭


    Was anyone there? I missed the case and really wanted to be there for it. Late to the party :(

    Stay Free



Comments

  • #2
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    ...Ghost... wrote: »
    Was anyone there? I missed the case and really wanted to be there for it. Late to the party :(

    Back in December sometime. The barrister thinks some of them are legal even though the statute is clear, but the poor barrister has to be able to make money so can research all they want.


  • #3
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/first-cases-of-riding-e-scooters-without-insurance-brought-to-court-1.4057797

    First cases of riding e-scooters without insurance brought to court
    Two incidents brought by same garda go before District Court in Dublin


  • #4
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,705 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Back in December sometime. The barrister thinks some of them are legal even though the statute is clear, but the poor barrister has to be able to make money so can research all they want.

    Yeah that stood out for me too when I read it this morning. Bizarre, isn't it? Of course they are illegal as is. Mechanically propelled vehicle.

    The only thing legal is a pedelec eBike, 250W max (no way to check this though, unless you put a power meter on it), only works while pedaling and motor cuts off at 25km/h

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  • #5
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    unkel wrote: »
    Yeah that stood out for me too when I read it this morning. Bizarre, isn't it? Of course they are illegal as is. Mechanically propelled vehicle.

    The only thing legal is a pedelec eBike, 250W max (no way to check this though, unless you put a power meter on it), only works while pedaling and motor cuts off at 25km/h

    I'd say that's why the Garda went for the scooter and unicycle, no way to argue that they are a pedelec.


  • #6
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,330 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Should be thrown out when legislation is brought in, hopefully no helmet requirement but if there is I spotted this https://hovding.com


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  • #7
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,705 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Del2005 wrote: »
    I'd say that's why the Garda went for the scooter and unicycle, no way to argue that they are a pedelec.

    I feel sorry for the poor feckers that got their expensive gear taken off them and having to appear in court - they were probably only trying to go to work. They might not even have been aware they were illegally riding a mechanically propelled vehicle

    The Garda is just doing his job though, and with bringing them to court, he is probably doing the community a favour by forcing politicians to speed up bringing in some sort of legislation / discussion in the Dail

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  • #8
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭creedp


    unkel wrote: »
    I feel sorry for the poor feckers that got their expensive gear taken off them and having to appear in court - they were probably only trying to go to work. They might not even have been aware they were illegally riding a mechanically propelled vehicle

    The Garda is just doing his job though, and with bringing them to court, he is probably doing the community a favour by forcing politicians to speed up bringing in some sort of legislation / discussion in the Dail

    It must really frustrate them to see the streets littered with them each day. If the Gardai consider them illegal why aren't they pulling them all off the street. Maybe they are only illegal when a Garda take an exception to one?


  • #9
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,705 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    creedp wrote: »
    Maybe they are only illegal when a Garda take an exception to one?

    Isn't that the case with everything? I know some people who never have tax or NCT on their car, and they've never had their car confiscated either (despite being stopped at checkpoints in the Dublin area)

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  • #10
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    unkel wrote: »
    I feel sorry for the poor feckers that got their expensive gear taken off them and having to appear in court - they were probably only trying to go to work. They might not even have been aware they were illegally riding a mechanically propelled vehicle

    Surely their must be some responsibility on retailers knowingly selling a product which is illegal to use in a public place. The law was always pretty clear here, despite the best efforts of some retailers to muddy the waters.


  • #11
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,705 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    liamog wrote: »
    Surely their must be some responsibility on retailers knowingly selling a product which is illegal to use in a public place.

    I'd say most people bought their scooter online. Mostly from other jurisdictions?

    And no, I don't feel it is the responsibility of a retailer to inform their customers about legalities*. I'm sick of only being able to buy one pack of aspirin at a time because of these nanny state restrictions. And if I buy more than a couple of bottles of wine, I'd appreciate if I don't get a (legally endorsed) lecture of how many alcoholic measures I am supposed to drink per day.

    Sorry that almost looks like a bit of a rant :p

    *that said, I don't think any retailer in Ireland sells mechanically propelled vehicles (that are road illegal) other than pedelecs which are fully road legal. Or do they?

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  • #12
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,705 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    A little check. Halfords - probably the main retailer of bikes and stuff in this country - do indeed sell scooters. On the page of the most popular one it states in a giant font that:

    "Please note that this scooter is not to be used on public highways, only on private property with the owner's consent."

    Which is what you were after, liamog, isn't it? Seems fully responsible.

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  • #13
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    unkel wrote: »
    A little check. Halfords - probably the main retailer of bikes and stuff in this country - do indeed sell scooters. On the page of the most popular one it states in a giant font that:

    "Please note that this scooter is not to be used on public highways, only on private property with the owner's consent."

    Which is what you were after, liamog, isn't it? Seems fully responsible.

    Ahh the old wink wink nudge nudge defence. They've certainly covered themselves.

    I believe Three used to sell the Xiaomi M365, maybe they stopped due to the lack of legality. I'm sure they had many customers purchase them for use scooting around their home.


  • #14
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭creedp


    unkel wrote: »
    Isn't that the case with everything? I know some people who never have tax or NCT on their car, and they've never had their car confiscated either (despite being stopped at checkpoints in the Dublin area)

    I agree fully. However it is one thing to not being bothered to check the tax disc on a car but its another thing to stand by as multiple illegal 'vehicles' scoot past you on the street ... stretches the limits of the Gardaí credibility .. not surprising really though given your quote above.


  • #15
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,252 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    I think in all honesty if I were a Guard I wouldn’t see or bother with them either.

    Which is worse on our streets , diesel 4x4 or these ? The fact that government hasn’t legislated for them by now says more about our politicians than about the users. Too busy pushing buttons.


  • #16
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    I saw gardai move aside the barrier on Clonliffe Rd on a match day this summer to let one through.


  • #17
    Rayne Wooney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,136 ✭✭✭✭Rayne Wooney


    Interesting to see what happens, I don’t know how there is any ambiguity relating to these as they are clearly within the definition of an MPV, anyone using them currently is breaking the law as it stands without a doubt.

    Now a common sense approach is probably needed, are these 15km/h things more dangerous than the 1000s of guys doing their best Bradley Wiggins interpretation in the mornings/evenings around the city centre?


  • #18
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,135 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Rayne Wooney wrote: »
    Now a common sense approach is probably needed, are these 15km/h things more dangerous than the 1000s of guys doing their best Bradley Wiggins interpretation in the mornings/evenings around the city centre?

    It's interesting how you identify the supposedly dangerous actor as the cyclist in one case but the "15kph" inanimate scooter in the other (is there even an e-scooter with a top speed that low?).

    Bicycles are safer at high speed because they have larger wheels, shorter stopping distances, and greater stability.

    More importantly, they've been on the roads since before there were cars.


  • #19
    Jude13
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭Jude13


    unkel wrote: »
    Yeah that stood out for me too when I read it this morning. Bizarre, isn't it? Of course they are illegal as is. Mechanically propelled vehicle.

    The only thing legal is a pedelec eBike, 250W max (no way to check this though, unless you put a power meter on it), only works while pedaling and motor cuts off at 25km/h

    Not as clear cut as that. There have been cases where people have mitigated their actions from a car cutting out and 'free-wheeling' causing an accident as the car was no longer mechanically propelled at the time.


  • #20
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,648 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    creedp wrote: »
    It must really frustrate them to see the streets littered with them each day. If the Gardai consider them illegal why aren't they pulling them all off the street. Maybe they are only illegal when a Garda take an exception to one?

    Time and resources. Bigger fish to fry


  • #21
    AhHaor
    Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭AhHaor


    I'd be interested to hear further details here, they're seriously unlucky if they were just randomly stopped. I wonder if there were other circumstances. I have gone through a road checkpoint and went by a crash and both were heavily policed and actually stopped at the checkpoint to have a chat with the guard who recommended I get a high viz jacket to go with my lights.


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  • #22
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Should be thrown out when legislation is brought in, hopefully no helmet requirement but if there is I spotted this https://hovding.com

    Doesn't matter what legislation comes in. They are currently using an MPV without insurance, licence, tax, etc. If someone gets caught driving a car uninsured they get the points even if they insure it the next day.


  • #23
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    unkel wrote: »
    I feel sorry for the poor feckers that got their expensive gear taken off them and having to appear in court - they were probably only trying to go to work. They might not even have been aware they were illegally riding a mechanically propelled vehicle

    The Garda is just doing his job though, and with bringing them to court, he is probably doing the community a favour by forcing politicians to speed up bringing in some sort of legislation / discussion in the Dail

    They were using an MPV illegally. Ignorance of the law is no defence. Where do you draw the line on illegal MPV use? On the continent its legal for 14 year olds to ride mopeds, what if a 14 year old here was caught on a moped going to school. The lads on the scramblers are only having a laugh, they don't know that you need insurance or licences for off vehicles.


  • #24
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭creedp


    joeysoap wrote: »
    The fact that government hasn’t legislated for them by now says more about our politicians than about the users. Too busy pushing buttons.

    Or maybe not busy enough??


  • #25
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,330 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    AhHaor wrote: »
    I'd be interested to hear further details here, they're seriously unlucky if they were just randomly stopped. I wonder if there were other circumstances.

    I did rise an eyebrow to their second names, looked like they were picked on, if the first two charged were a Ryan and an O'Flaherty after leaving work in Google it might have made the guard look a little less racist.


  • #26
    kaahooters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 684 ✭✭✭kaahooters


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    I did rise an eyebrow to their second names, looked like they were picked on, if the first two charged were a Ryan and an O'Flaherty after leaving work in Google it might have made the guard look a little less racist.

    this makes you look more racist then the guard tbfh, they could have been tourists, it dosent matter who the guard pulled, all that matters is the outcome at this point.


  • #27
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,648 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    I did rise an eyebrow to their second names, looked like they were picked on, if the first two charged were a Ryan and an O'Flaherty after leaving work in Google it might have made the guard look a little less racist.

    I’d hazard are a guess and say that a larger majority of people riding E-Scooters have foreign sounding surnames.


    To imply the guard is racist is down right daft


  • #28
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,330 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    I'm not calling him a racist it just looked like it on paper. Of all the people on scooters it had to be two non nationals who ended up in front of the judge.


  • #29
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,648 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    I'm not calling him a racist it just looked like it on paper. Of all the people on scooters it had to be two non nationals who ended up in front of the judge.

    I’m sure the defendants have a nationality. I don’t see how anyone would say it read as racist.


  • #30
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,330 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    ted1 wrote: »
    I’m sure the defendants have a nationality. I don’t see how anyone would say it read as racist.

    I thought it was odd the way the first two appearing in court were not Irish or maybe second generation that's all. It's the first thing that hit me yesterday when I read the story.


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  • #31
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,135 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    The obvious reason is that Irish-born people are law abiding folk who never break the rules.

    That's why there are hardly any speed cameras or traffic light cameras in Ireland. We don't need them because no-one breaks the law!


  • #32
    ...Ghost...
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,763 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    creedp wrote: »
    I agree fully. However it is one thing to not being bothered to check the tax disc on a car but its another thing to stand by as multiple illegal 'vehicles' scoot past you on the street ... stretches the limits of the Gardaí credibility .. not surprising really though given your quote above.

    Are they not both being used illegally though? One has no tax, insurance, nct....the other has no tax, insurance, nct. The difference I see is that one can be insured and taxed while the other cannot. Also one takes more road space than the other. I see a lot more cars with no tax, or insurance on the road than I see people on e-scooters. They should be treated no differently if you expect Gardai to follow the letter of the law.

    Thankfully most people riding e-scooters are not being pulled in by the Gardai. While they are considered illegal, there needs to be people using them in order to get some attention. Without those rebels breaking the law everyday on their e-rides, there would be no discussion about it and more cars on the road.
    AhHaor wrote: »
    I'd be interested to hear further details here, they're seriously unlucky if they were just randomly stopped. I wonder if there were other circumstances. I have gone through a road checkpoint and went by a crash and both were heavily policed and actually stopped at the checkpoint to have a chat with the guard who recommended I get a high viz jacket to go with my lights.

    I seen a clip of the guy who was pulled in on the e-scooter. He was pulled in on a long stretch of road, wearing a helmet and hi-viz. His scooter could not exceed 25kmh. It was a Gard on a bike who pulled both riders. A tow truck was called to seize and remove something that can be carried, or put into the boot of a car. Ridiculous carry on.

    Stay Free



  • #33
    MB Lacey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭MB Lacey


    In contrast to the Halfords page, Escooter Ireland are clearly advocating e-sccoters as the ideal and legal way to commute....

    This is from their website today, under FAQ (17/01/20):

    Are Electric Scooters Legal in Ireland?
    'Yes they are legal! Whether or not they can be used on public roads is a bit of a grey area that there is some debate about.The minister for transport is looking at bringing in specific laws for the electric scooters in the near future and you can read more on this here. (They provide a link to this IT article from Aug 2019)'.

    And they promote e-scooters as the ideal way to commute to work:

    'Have you seen people whizzing around on futuristic looking electric scooters and are wondering what they are? Electric scooters for adults are becoming hugely popular as a means to commute to work quickly whilst saving you money on your commute, cutting your carbon footprint, taking pressure off of the road network and being easy and convenient.....
    ....Our electric scooters have a range of 20 - 30kms so are perfect for a commute to work without sitting hours in traffic'.

    E-scooters Ireland website

    I decided this morning I might be look into buying one, I usually cycle to work (18km round trip), but sometimes I'm tired and want to save my energy for a longer cycle at the weekend, or just have a rest. Commuting by car/ buses across the city kills my soul, plus parking where I work is like finding a needle in a haystack, so an e-scooter seemed like a good solution, until I thought to look up their legal status.

    The most recent article I could find around their legality was Dec 2019 which seems to suggest there is still no definite decision by Shane Ross/ politicians around the e-scooter's legality.


    Does anyone have any other updates?


  • #34
    grogi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Current state is clear: they are not legal on public roads. There might be changes of the law in the works, but current situation is not ambiguous.


  • #35
    MB Lacey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭MB Lacey


    So the info on the Escooter Ireland website stating how they are the perfect way to commute 20-30km is clearly misleading then.


  • #36
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,705 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    MB Lacey wrote: »
    So the info on the Escooter Ireland website stating how they are the perfect way to commute 20-30km is clearly misleading then.

    Yes it is misleading.

    This is not a grey area at all, electric scooters are not road legal in the EU.

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  • #37
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    unkel wrote: »
    Yes it is misleading.

    This is not a grey area at all, electric scooters are not road legal in the EU.

    That's true, but's more subtle than that.

    Electric scooters are not road legal at the EU level, but individual member states are allowed to make them legal. For instance, they are allowed in France, but you must use the road, or dedicated cycle paths. There are also restrictions on speed.


  • #38
    dhaughton99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭dhaughton99


    Not allowed to chase scramblers but escooters are an easy target.


  • #39
    grogi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    MB Lacey wrote: »
    So the info on the Escooter Ireland website stating how they are the perfect way to commute 20-30km is clearly misleading then.

    If I was selling them, I wouldn't write that they are illegal :D


  • #40
    ...Ghost...
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,763 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Mod Note: Snip, as per Forum Charter, "Posts that encourage drivers to break the law" are not allowed, subsequent posts will result in warnings.

    Stay Free



  • #41
    rubadub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,382 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    unkel wrote: »
    And no, I don't feel it is the responsibility of a retailer to inform their customers about legalities*.
    If I buy a 10" fixed knife, or a packet of rizla in tesco they do not give me warnings about knife laws or cannabis laws which they could be used for.

    However these escooters are different, the shops are not saying nothing, many are explicity recommending them for commuting. If shops were selling assault knives with fixed blades and saying "this will be the perfect accompaniment on your night out, walking to and from the pub" then I would have an issue.

    In this post I had searched for shops selling escooters here and the majority were making out as thought it was legal, even though it was made extremely clear that this was not the case by that time.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111628019&postcount=1610

    I think it is wise of Halfords to give warnings as so many of these scumbag conmen have duped the public that loads of people I know think they are legal. But halfords are fully aware most will use them for illegal purposes, just like head shops selling glass bongs with "for tobacco use only" on them.


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  • #42
    Tinder Surprise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Tinder Surprise


    Sorry for reviving what probably is a dead thread, but..


    Any update on this case ?


  • #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I find it really funny because these scooters are going way faster than an ebike is allowed to go on motor power, + they have throttle, ebike is not allowed a throttle what a joke.


  • #44
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,310 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    Saw an utter fool on one at 630am on the Swords Ashbourne Road. No lights of course.

    The guy must be suicidal. If he hits a pot hole, he's dead.


  • #45
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    dhaughton99 wrote: »
    Not allowed to chase scramblers but escooters are an easy target.

    I saw a Garda motorbike chasing a scrambler. He did well to keep it up when he went onto the grass but the scrambler left him for dead.

    I haven't seen anyone being done for on an escooter or non pedal assisted bike


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