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Do you believe in God?

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    #722
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    <citations needed>



    I can not speak for anyone else but I certainly have. Multiple times. Multiple versions.

    What amazes me is how few Christians I meet who have bothered to own one let alone read it. I mean I do not think there is a god and I have read it a LOT. Yet people who profess to think this book is a glimpse into the mind of the being that created them and controls their eternal well being..... they can not be bothered?

    Makes you wonder if people who SAY they believe in Christianity..... actually do. OR do they.... as Daniel Dennett puts it.... just "believe in belief".

    Actually forget READING it many Christians I have met have not even SEEN one. They are shocked actually at how big it is. They have been fed the same cherry picked passages from school teachers and the pulpit all their life.... they seem to think that only those passages were in it. So when they see how big the full text actually is, and how tiny the font.... they find it literally jaw dropping.



    If you want to plead guilty to a murder by all means turn yourself in. Do not drag us into it. I killed no one, least of all him. I was very young then.



    Not so sure of that. We are a much less barbarous society these days. At least in parts of the world. Maybe he should not show his face in the middle east. I doubt he is getting murdered here in Ireland though.

    That said though there were people who were witnessed performing much of the same miracles as your Nazarene is claimed to have. Sathya Sai Bab for example. He died of old age I think, not religious murderous fanatics and mobs.


    I agree with you on those who claim to be Christians are aren't.
    Are we any less barbarous? You must live in fairy tale land. Just look at the barbarous acts we commit all over the world and tell me we're civilised.

    Under the right conditions we all have the propensity to murder. It only takes a certain level of hate to be released.
    Just look at the vitriol on this thread for the Christians and tell me we're civilised.


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    #723
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    "prove" seems too lofty for me. I generally ask theists for ANY arguments, evidence, data or reasoning that lends ANY credence to the claim that our universe was created by a non human intelligent and intentional agent.

    They can not even do that much. Forget "proof". I stopped asking for "proof" a long long time ago, cast a wider and more forgiving net, and you people still have nothing.

    Alas as usual the only keeping of reality you do is keeping it OUT of the conversation.



    Wow it is like Jesus and Mo predicted our conversation. This is their current toon!



    Interestingly however no one can explain either why you assume there SHOULD be nothingness. It is a very human way of thinking to assume "nothing" must be the default automatically, and therefore the "something" must be explained.

    But is it a valid assumption based on anything but flawed human intuition? Why is there something rather than nothing we ask..... when perhaps a better question is why should we expect there to be nothing rather than something?



    No. They should not. Especially, but not limited to, ludicrous and ridiculous beliefs.

    Respect people, not beliefs. The two are not the same thing, no matter how many with to conflate the latter with the former.

    Prove evolution to me.
    Why have we as a society not improved ourselves. Society is degrading.
    Why has cancer not evolved out of us? It appears to be on the increase.

    Why are more people on physciatric medications than ever before if they are better evolved people?

    The world is in danger of "extinction" so called. Why has evolution failed to stop it?


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    #724
    Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo


    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    Why have we as a society not improved ourselves. Society is degrading.
    Why has cancer not evolved out of us? It appears to be on the increase.

    Why are more people on physciatric medications than ever before if they are better evolved people?

    The world is in danger of "extinction" so called. Why has evolution failed to stop it?

    You definitely have the wrong idea of what evolution actually is.

    Also evolution doesn't necessarily mean the end outcome is better. Like the Dodo losing its ability to fly, only for that to be its downfall long after. Evolution isn't a conscious force guiding people and animals and society to a guaranteed better outcome.

    More people are on medication than ever before because there wasn't any treatment for serious mental illness until somewhat recently. Ireland treated its mentally ill by locking them away in institutions. So did most other countries.


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    #725
    the-island-man
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭the-island-man


    I am constantly confused about beliefs in Ireland. The census in 2016 said that there are roughly 3.729 million Roman Catholics in Ireland which somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of the population. Taking this poll as a sample I am baffled!

    I am of no religion but I just find it bizarre how polls constantly suggest the census figures are way off.


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    #726
    buckwheat
    Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭buckwheat


    the-island-man wrote: »
    I am constantly confused about beliefs in Ireland. The census in 2016 said that there are roughly 3.729 million Roman Catholics in Ireland which somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of the population. Taking this poll as a sample I am baffled!

    I am of no religion but I just find it bizarre how polls constantly suggest the census figures are way off.

    Ah that'd be the Catholic atheists. We've loads of them


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    #727
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    the-island-man wrote: »
    I am constantly confused about beliefs in Ireland. The census in 2016 said that there are roughly 3.729 million Roman Catholics in Ireland which somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of the population. Taking this poll as a sample I am baffled!

    I am of no religion but I just find it bizarre how polls constantly suggest the census figures are way off.
    A poll of Catholics taken by the Catholic church found that 8% of Catholics in Ireland don't beleive in God.

    For many Irish people, "Catholic" is their culture and not their religion. And they have difficulty separating one from the other. Same as if you asked them to change the tricolor, they'd have real difficulty doing it even though it's just a picture with some colours on it.

    People intertwine the word "catholic" into their self-identity. And it's incredibly difficult for people to change their self-identity. It feels like a betrayal of yourself and your entire family.


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    #728
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    the-island-man wrote: »
    I am of no religion but I just find it bizarre how polls constantly suggest the census figures are way off.

    It gets much worse and more confusing than that. Polls and the like taken BY catholic clergy OF self identified Catholics found that many of them do not even believe the central tenets of Catholicism.

    At the time of the Eucharistic Congress in Dublin a poll showed 15% of Irish Catholics don’t believe Jesus was the son of God while 8% don’t believe in God.

    You would think these two things were a rather low bar to cross towards being a Catholic.


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    #729
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    I agree with you on those who claim to be Christians are aren't.

    The clergy project seems to suggest something similar too. It is a project in the US designed to offer moral and other support to clergy who no longer, or perhaps never did, believe. And now they are suffering because of that, and sometimes because of not being able to "come out" as a non believer. The numbers subscribing to the project were larger than the founders ever expected.
    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    Are we any less barbarous? You must live in fairy tale land. Just look at the barbarous acts we commit all over the world and tell me we're civilised.

    I live in a fairy tale land because YOU said two completely different things here and I did not? In one sentence you said LESS BARBAROUS and in the next you move on to ANY barbarous acts at all. Two very different things. I said the former, nothing to do with the latter.

    Yes it appears we are less barbarous. Both on an individual level and on societal levels. We tend not to kill each other in duels over slights any more. We do not have much in the way of death by hanging and the like any more. We have less crime and less war. Have a read of Pinkers book "Better Angels of our nature" which examines quite closely a lot of trends in criminal and other barbarous behaviour and finds they are all down.

    But saying we are LESS barbarous and MORE civilised is not the same as saying we are NOT barbarous and ENTIRELY civilised. I never said that at all. So the fairy tale came from you not me. While I am aware we have been slowly improving, I am also more than aware we still have a long way to go indeed.
    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    Under the right conditions we all have the propensity to murder. It only takes a certain level of hate to be released. Just look at the vitriol on this thread for the Christians and tell me we're civilised.

    Actually if you have an honest counter over the posts on this thread the vitriol, personal insults and so forth come more from the theists towards atheists than vice versa. If you doubt that I can re-do the count citing actual post numbers for you if you want. But last time I did that on this thread the theists were winning 2:1 maybe even 3:1 on posts of invective. You seem to be seeing only what you want to see.

    That said however, the fact that we are discussing it with words, even punctuated with childish invective at times, is a good thing. You said hate can lead to murder. Sure, but it isn't is it? We are using discourse. Words. Conversation. Some people might be angry or hateful here, but that just leads them to use more words, conversation and discourse. No murder. No violence.

    Is that not progress? There was a time when speaking out against the status quo, against the church, against religion, or against god would get you tortured, murdered, or both. Now we can ALL openly discuss our beliefs or lack of them, and point out the problems in the beliefs of others.... without fear. And you do not see that as an improvement in our species??? :confused:
    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    Prove evolution to me.

    Again what do you mean by "prove"? As I said in my post above, the one you just replied to, it is a lofty word in the vernacular. I can certainly educate you on the arguments, evidence, data and reasoning that lends credence to the claims of Evolution Science.

    "Prove" in science however means something much different to "prove" in the vernacular. So be careful which one you think you mean when asking me to prove something scientific.
    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    Why have we as a society not improved ourselves. Society is degrading.

    By what standard? I see improvements in many many many areas and places. I see an overall trend of improvement. I of course also see areas that have not improved, some areas that have disimproved, and some areas that are falling apart entirely. But OVERALL I think we are improving.
    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    Why has cancer not evolved out of us? It appears to be on the increase.

    Mainly because evolution comes into play when it affects reproduction. Many cancers tend to come into affect in our species AFTER reproduction has occurred. Later in life. And hence evolution will not have any affect on that.

    Further though, we as a species have broken the shackles and bonds of evolution. Through medical science people who get cancer are NOT removed from the gene pool. We save them, and they often have long and prosperous lives. So again evolution will be blind to that.
    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    Why are more people on physciatric medications than ever before if they are better evolved people?

    Likely because our procedures for putting people on such medication, especially in the US, are very poor. Nothing to do with evolution. I think a significant % of people on such medication should not be. This is not a problem of biology or evolution. It is a problem of our medical science and procedures.
    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    The world is in danger of "extinction" so called. Why has evolution failed to stop it?

    Why would it? Evolution does not work that way. I suspect at this point you have a false idea of what evolution is, and does.


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    #730
    Marhay70
    Registered Users Posts: 1,913 ✭✭✭Marhay70


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    God is three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All three are called God.

    Again, this was a latecomer to Christian doctrine, the early church did not preach the trinity.


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    #731
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Can you please explain the need for childhood cancer within your 'one truth'?

    Nope. But I know God is good.


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    #732
    Stuxnet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,735 ✭✭✭Stuxnet


    If you understand anything of astrophysics and cosmology, you would quickly realise all religion/afterlife/God/creationism is all bull****


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    #733
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    the-island-man wrote: »
    I am constantly confused about beliefs in Ireland. The census in 2016 said that there are roughly 3.729 million Roman Catholics in Ireland which somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of the population. Taking this poll as a sample I am baffled!

    If you were baptized, then you're technically a Roman Catholic, regardless of whether you go to mass or believe in God. There's a formal process by which people can defect from the Catholic Church, but few bother to take that step.

    In Ireland, the population of baptized Catholics is much larger than the population of actively practicing Catholics, hence the disparity.


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    #734
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    "prove" seems too lofty for me. I generally ask theists for ANY arguments, evidence, data or reasoning that lends ANY credence to the claim that our universe was created by a non human intelligent and intentional agent.

    Such worldly concerns are of no consequence as faith is all that is required. You see faith is a beautiful thing. It is strongly aligned with trust.


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    #735
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,435 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    Nope. But I know God is good.

    To a very few.


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    #736
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,541 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    the-island-man wrote: »
    I am constantly confused about beliefs in Ireland. The census in 2016 said that there are roughly 3.729 million Roman Catholics in Ireland which somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of the population. Taking this poll as a sample I am baffled!
    Go to any RC church on Sunday morning for a more accurate measure - 8% or 9% would be closer to the truth,mostly the over 70s and the communion year parents.


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    #737
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,541 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    Nope. But I know God is good.

    So your definition of 'good' includes causing people, including small children, to get horrendously painful diseases that will kill them over a few years then?

    With friends like that...


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    #738
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    To a very few.

    Pishposh. God is good to all.


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    #739
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    So your definition of 'good' includes causing people, including small children, to get horrendously painful diseases that will kill them over a few years then?

    With friends like that...

    If one does not know the mysteries of this world, one will not fathom the mind of God. Childhood cancer brings on death in this life but even if one lives a thousand years, this life is still very very short in comparison to the next.


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    #740
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    I was listening to RTE Radio on Saturday and the f*cking Angelus came on at 12pm! Couldn't believe that still happens. How is this fair on the rest of us, why should non Catholics have to pay a licence fee for something that broadcasts Catholic nonsense?

    It lasts for one minute. Nurses and carers looking after elderly or ill patients say that the elderly people find peace in those 60 seconds.


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    #741
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,435 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    Pishposh. God is good to all.

    How is giving a 5 year old child cancer and a painful death considered good?


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    #742
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,541 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    If one does not know the mysteries of this world, one will not fathom the mind of God. Childhood cancer brings on death in this life but even if one lives a thousand years, this life is still very very short in comparison to the next.


    Even if that were vaguely true and not utter nonsense and fantasy, how come the same logic doesn't apply to doing the things that your god doesn't like? How come when it comes to the 'bad stuff' that god doesn't like - you know, the fornication, the 'honouring your parents', the coveting of next door's missus? When it comes to those things, the 'very short life' is very significant, and enough to apparently damn you to hell for eternity, but when it comes to your child dying of cancer, you're supposed to just brush it off as 'very short'.



    Does this glaring difference seem a little illogical and inconsistent to you, for a supposed 'fair and just god'?




    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    It lasts for one minute. Nurses and carers looking after elderly or ill patients say that the elderly people find peace in those 60 seconds.


    So let the nurses and carers play the bells over their intercom or their phone or whatever they need - why impose it on the population at large?


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    #743
    Id Believe Anything
    Site Banned Posts: 2 ✭Id Believe Anything


    All these sad fcuks raging because some people have faith.


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    #744
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    Such worldly concerns are of no consequence as faith is all that is required. You see faith is a beautiful thing. It is strongly aligned with trust.

    Not really. Trust is, very often, evidence based too. Faith seems to be defined very much as belief without evidence of any sort. Very different.

    As predicted though, when we drop the word "proof" and switch to "Any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning at all" you still got nothing to offer.


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    #745
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,647 ✭✭✭54and56


    I don't believe in any of the gods others proclaim belief in.

    I have no issue with people believing in whatever god they want to believe in.

    I do however have an issue with organised religion and how in general they systematically indoctrinate children and generally brainwash their followers into polarising behaviour.


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    #746
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    How is giving a 5 year old child cancer and a painful death considered good?

    Why would you think God causes it? Anyway, is it not a bit warped to attribute something to a fairy tale? After all, most here says He didn't exist, so how can someone who doesn't exist be responsible?

    The logic escapes me :)


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    #747
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,267 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Id Believe Anything wrote: »
    All these sad fcuks raging because some people have faith.

    ...'cos you gotta have faith,


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    #748
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    After all, most here says He didn't exist, so how can someone who doesn't exist be responsible?

    The logic escapes me :)

    Which is odd given the logic has been explained multiple times. Including by me to you directly, in a post you merely ignored.


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    #749
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Which is odd given the logic has been explained multiple times. Including by me to you directly, in a post you merely ignored.

    There is no Logic in arguing against something that doesn't exist. Just get on with your lives if that's the case.
    He could appear in front of you and you probably wouldn't believe in Him.

    O wait, that already happened in History, they crucified Him.


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    #750
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    There is no Logic in arguing against something that doesn't exist.

    Again, we do it ALL the time. People discussing religion do it. People watching and discussing soap operas do it. People playing and discussing computer games do it. People reading and discussing fiction do it. Students studying and writing essays in the leaving cert do it.

    That YOU personally, and seemingly solely, can not understand this does not mean the logic is lacking.
    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    Just get on with your lives if that's the case.

    Happy to. As I said multiple times on this thread alone however, I am simply not let. When I try to engage in the MANY things that do interest me..... politics, education, sexuality, womens rights, gay rights, reproductive rights, science, and much more..... the parties of god are ever present to dictate to our halls of education, science and power based on what they think their gods actions and opinions were and are.
    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    He could appear in front of you and you probably wouldn't believe in Him.

    Let us cross that bridge when we come to it. You are struggling enough with the present reality without engaging in future "what ifs" on top of that.
    Taliyah Vast Gofer wrote: »
    O wait, that already happened in History, they crucified Him.

    Citations and evidence needed. Got any?


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    #751
    Marhay70
    Registered Users Posts: 1,913 ✭✭✭Marhay70


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    It lasts for one minute. Nurses and carers looking after elderly or ill patients say that the elderly people find peace in those 60 seconds.

    Those people are probably the ones who believe it has symbolism,to others it's just an interruption in the news. i don't really take much noice because I would rarely have RTE on but I do think that it's pushing one side of religion onto everybody which is not the function of the national broadcaster.


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