Now ye're talking - to someone who has been through rehab

Hannibal_Smith · 30-09-2019 11:22pm

I've been to rehab, AMA wrote: »

So rather than asking whether alcoholism runs in families, I think it's more relevant to ask does depression run in the family? Does low self-esteem run in the family? Is there conflict and tension there? Because in my opinion, from what I've observed, these sorts of traits within a family are far more likely to contribute to addiction than any biological predisposition.

Wow. Excellent point. I've never thought of it that way.

Matlock637 · 01-10-2019 12:20pm

HI ,total kudos to your on going recovery .

im a 4.5 years sober myself .I never went in anywhere for it ,i was a massive binge drinker and i liked uppers .i had underlying anxiety and substances totally relaxed me when socialising.
i have recently copped i have undiagnosed ADHD and it explains for me why i needed uppers and stimulants.my brain doesn't create the adacaute amount of dopamine .

They are getting much better at understanding addiction/substance abuse and this is good for the addict ,its taking the stigma away from us ,no one wants to be addicted .

Between your abuse trauma and the high stress of your finance job ,this stress seems to have accumulated over the years ,i really hope you get continued help to deal with all this ,itl keep the wolf from the door .no doubt they give you new ways to cope with stress+life.

Did the hospital put you on psychiatric medication straight away ? [i ask this because ive had a hard time coming of antidepressants myself ],be careful coming off them if you are on any .

Good luck on your continued sobriety.
Total respect.

Matlock637 · 01-10-2019 1:03pm

I've been to rehab, AMA wrote: »

Absolutely, yes! However this is a question which I'll only be able to answer in a very broad sense; I'm choosing to be very honest in this AMA about questions that pertain to me, but out of respect for other peoples privacy I wouldn't like to say anything identifiable about others I've met along the way.

I've sat in groups with many criminals, male and females but I suppose in my own experience men are more likely to have committed very violent crimes, including murder, and it's been difficult to hear about some of those crimes in a very intense group setting. Generally if those crimes were committed when the person was in addiction, the person would have shown a lot of remorse, but that wasn't always the case. I have encountered a couple of guys who I feel were probably genuine sociopaths, and it's really chilling to hear them talk about their crimes and to sense their complete lack of empathy. Especially (I'm thinking of a couple of men in particular) when you know they're coming to the end of their time in prison/treatment and will soon be out living in normal society again.

Due to the long periods of time I spent in psychiatric wards, I've observed up close and personal cases of acute psychosis, schitzophrenia, eating disorders, personality disorders, OCD and phobias, bipolar manias and depressions ... I've seen extreme episodes of self-harm and suicide attempts very up close and personal. Which was traumatic for everyone involved. I've also seen people - no matter how ill they were being admitted to hospital - coming out the other end really well and healthy once they've had the right treatment and are on the right medication for them. You'd probably be surprised how many people you'd meet in day-to-day life who've been very mentally ill at some point in the past, who have overcome it and who live very well with their diagnoses.

I've met a few celebrities along the way, obviously out of respect for their privacy there is no chance I'd go naming any of them. They were treated much the same as any other clients, still had to participate in housework and share dorms and all the rest, were still expected to participate openly and honestly in groups. I mean, it was exciting for about five minutes when you'd hear of someone famous being admitted, but you'd quickly realise that they were every bit as low and as desperate as any of the rest of us being admitted, and just wanted to keep a low profile and get on with things.

Looking back over all of the programs I've been on - and we're talking well in the double digits anyways - I would say I could probably still name almost everyone I've ever been in a therapy group with, and in fact I am still in touch with almost all of them. I've been really privileged to meet some really fantastic and inspirational people along the way. You learn to overlook the surface differences between yourself and others, and instead find your common ground and ways that you can identify with each others stories.

I find this very interesting in regards the sociopaths,these people need serious help and care ,they have a very serious mental health condition ,there slipping through the system.surely these recovery facility's are able to get them the extra help they need .
If you cant control your persistent violent criminal behaviour,surely your liberty has to be taken away until its controlled and there helped.

I've been to rehab, AMA · 01-10-2019 2:33pm

Matlock637 wrote: »

HI ,total kudos to your on going recovery .

im a 4.5 years sober myself .I never went in anywhere for it ,i was a massive binge drinker and i liked uppers .i had underlying anxiety and substances totally relaxed me when socialising.
i have recently copped i have undiagnosed ADHD and it explains for me why i needed uppers and stimulants.my brain doesn't create the adacaute amount of dopamine .

They are getting much better at understanding addiction/substance abuse and this is good for the addict ,its taking the stigma away from us ,no one wants to be addicted .

Between your abuse trauma and the high stress of your finance job ,this stress seems to have accumulated over the years ,i really hope you get continued help to deal with all this ,itl keep the wolf from the door .no doubt they give you new ways to cope with stress+life.

Did the hospital put you on psychiatric medication straight away ? [i ask this because ive had a hard time coming of antidepressants myself ],be careful coming off them if you are on any .

Good luck on your continued sobriety.
Total respect.

I've never felt that I was being medicated unnecessarily. You have to bear in mind that I've been extremely unwell on most of my admissions, and I was a voluntary patient, so I feel it would have been quite counterproductive of me to come into the hospital begging for help, and then to refuse the medication being prescribed to help me.

As an addict I'd be wary of being prescribed benzos, sleepers or painkillers, or anything potentially addictive, but I was very rarely prescribed any of those (outside of the Librium detoxes, which were medically necessary.)

I'm quite stable on the mix of medications I'm on at the moment, all of which are non-addictive. There are no issues with being on any of them long-term, so I don't really see why I'd ever come off them. I don't feel like I'm not myself with the medication I'm on, if anything I'm the best version of myself.

When I was an in-patient I was always given a copy of my care plan, and medication was only ever part of it - there'd be recovery programmes, lectures, DBT skills, psychologist assessments, counselling, etc. I'd probably have been unhappy alright if they were throwing meds at me but not offering me any other supports, but that was never the case.

I've been to rehab, AMA · 01-10-2019 2:43pm

Matlock637 wrote: »

I find this very interesting in regards the sociopaths,these people need serious help and care ,they have a very serious mental health condition ,there slipping through the system.surely these recovery facility's are able to get them the extra help they need .
If you cant control your persistent violent criminal behaviour,surely your liberty has to be taken away until its controlled and there helped.

With the guys I'm thinking of, they had served all of their time for the crimes they'd committed. I don't think there's any mechanism to keep criminals in prison longer than their sentence, regardless of their lack of remorse.

By the way, as far as I'm aware sociopathy is not in fact a mental illness but a personality disorder. I wouldn't say sociopaths are unable to control their criminal behaviour, often I imagine in fact they thrive on absolute control. Unlike someone who's violent as a result of a mental illness, a sociopath is fully aware of what they're doing and what the consequences are. They don't need more love and support and care, what they need is to develop empathy and a conscience and a moral compass, however those are things no amount of treatment is going to change in them.

julyjane · 01-10-2019 4:34pm

You mentioned that many of the centres were religious, with the exception of Coolmine IIRC. Was the religion a big part of their way of working (prayers, mass, thanking God etc.) or just there in the background as an option?

I've been to rehab, AMA · 01-10-2019 6:48pm

julyjane wrote: »

You mentioned that many of the centres were religious, with the exception of Coolmine IIRC. Was the religion a big part of their way of working (prayers, mass, thanking God etc.) or just there in the background as an option?

The two religious ones I know of are Cuan Mhuire (which has centres in Newry, Athy, Cork, Limerick, and Galway), and Tig Linn in Wicklow.

I've never been to Tig Linn but I have some friends who've been there. It's a long program (a couple of years) and it seems to be heavily based around bible study. The people I know who've been through it came through the other side very religious, even though they wouldn't have been that way going in.

As for Cuan Mhuire, it's a twelve-week program, the first two weeks of which are for detox. After that you have a theme for each week, e.g. Denial, Guilt & Shame, Spirituality, Healing The Hurts Of The Past, Gratitude ... I can't remember the others. Basically the founder of Cuan Mhuire, Sr Consilio, wrote the whole program, and the idea is that in your groups each week you read her few pages that she originally wrote on the topic, and you discuss it and answer questions in the groups.

A typical day in Cuan Mhuire would be as follows. You get up early, I think around 7am for meditation at 7.20. Morning meditation consisted of sitting in a room in silence for 40 minutes. You have your breakfast, then your first group of the day, I think it went on for about an hour or more. The next couple of hours, you're doing your work program, which might have been kitchen work or outside work or carpentry for the lads, cleaning or sewing for the girls. Lunch at midday, followed by a couple more hours work. Another shorter meditation at around 3pm, followed by mass every day which went on for about half an hour. Dinner in the evening, followed by a second group session, and then usually a bit of free time before rosary. Then bed.

Attendance was mandatory for all of the religious bits, i.e. meditations mass and rosary. You could of course just sit in silence and not participate, but you had to be there. I didn't mind most of it except the rosaries, they used to just about kill me in the evenings, especially when one of the counsellors used to throw in an extra decade "for luck."

Even during the first few weeks of detox, when you were only allowed have your pyjamas and no clothes, you still had to attend mass - it wasn't unheard of for someone still in PJs to have a withdrawal fit in the mass hall!

I wasn't religious going in and was totally open about that with staff - I was concerned that the program wouldn't work for me because I wasn't religious. In fairness I never felt even any of the nuns judged me for my lack of belief. Sr Consilio herself, when I discussed it with her, told me to "fake it till I make it" - to go along with all of the religious stuff and eventually I might start believing. I mean, I was so desperate that, if getting on board with the Jesus stuff was necessary for my recovery, I was determined to do it. So I kept a more-than-open mind and really tried my best to immerse myself in the religious/spiritual aspects of the program. I guess by the end (I spent seven months there) I got a lot of comfort in the rituals around religion, and even now I quite enjoy attending mass when I can at the weekend. I like the familiarity and predictability of it all. I'd still probably consider myself agnostic though.

You might ask, by the way, how do the staff "make" grown adults participate in all this religious stuff if they don't want to? Quite simply, if you don't have health insurance, Cuan Mhuire is pretty much your only option for detox and treatment. By the time you've made the decision to go into treatment, chances are the addiction has absolutely broken you and you're begging for any help you can get. You get into the place, you're detoxed, you're getting a few solid meals into you and a nice bit of routine, and a break away from all the awfulness in your life and all the people out there you've pissed off ... there's not much point in making a massive stand and refusing to go to mass or whatever every day, because the staff will be only too happy to help you pack your bags and go, there's always a waiting list of other people looking for your bed.

As for other treatment centres, they're not usually religious. Every place I've been however has mandatory attendance at fellowship meetings as part of the program. AA/NA/etc are supposedly spiritual but non-religious, as far as I'm concerned though their literature chats an awful lot about God for a non-religious program! (Fellowship meetings aren't really part of my recovery, they are a big part of life for many of my friends in recovery though, even those who are in no way religious.)

Matlock637 · 01-10-2019 8:24pm

I've been to rehab, AMA wrote: »

I've never felt that I was being medicated unnecessarily. You have to bear in mind that I've been extremely unwell on most of my admissions, and I was a voluntary patient, so I feel it would have been quite counterproductive of me to come into the hospital begging for help, and then to refuse the medication being prescribed to help me.

As an addict I'd be wary of being prescribed benzos, sleepers or painkillers, or anything potentially addictive, but I was very rarely prescribed any of those (outside of the Librium detoxes, which were medically necessary.)

I'm quite stable on the mix of medications I'm on at the moment, all of which are non-addictive. There are no issues with being on any of them long-term, so I don't really see why I'd ever come off them. I don't feel like I'm not myself with the medication I'm on, if anything I'm the best version of myself.

When I was an in-patient I was always given a copy of my care plan, and medication was only ever part of it - there'd be recovery programmes, lectures, DBT skills, psychologist assessments, counselling, etc. I'd probably have been unhappy alright if they were throwing meds at me but not offering me any other supports, but that was never the case.

Cool thanks for your reply ,its brilliant you are on a mix that works for you.

Matlock637 · 01-10-2019 8:29pm

I've been to rehab, AMA wrote: »

With the guys I'm thinking of, they had served all of their time for the crimes they'd committed. I don't think there's any mechanism to keep criminals in prison longer than their sentence, regardless of their lack of remorse.

By the way, as far as I'm aware sociopathy is not in fact a mental illness but a personality disorder. I wouldn't say sociopaths are unable to control their criminal behaviour, often I imagine in fact they thrive on absolute control. Unlike someone who's violent as a result of a mental illness, a sociopath is fully aware of what they're doing and what the consequences are. They don't need more love and support and care, what they need is to develop empathy and a conscience and a moral compass, however those are things no amount of treatment is going to change in them.

I retract what i said ,i was wrong to say sociopath is a mental illness .the DSM has it down as a personality disorder .
total respect.

Tell me how · 01-10-2019 8:34pm

OP, I too have been a patient in St Pats previously (depression, no substance issues) and one thing that I really noticed while there was that the opening 2 questions most fellow patients had for every new entrant were, 'Have you been here before' and 'Who is your consultant'. Both questions were troubling to some degree, the first, because it strongly implied that you might not get better through being an inpatient and the second, because I saw many people be told negative things about their particular consultant before they had even had the opportunity to get to know them themselves.

It was also often implied that many people saw the venue/consultant as being responsible for getting people better and indeed, I saw many people complain while they were unfortunately, not helping themselves as much as they might.
To be fair to St Pats, they ran very good information sessions and the message in group sessions (and my experience 1 to 1) was that it was a collaborative effort but I did see some people struggle with this.

Did you see similar in your experiences in various venues, that people felt it was solely the responsibility of the venue to cure someone? Would you say it was a problem in that, as a consequence, some were less likely to become well because of unrealistic expectations and how did different venues deal with this scenario?

(Another rambling question I'm afraid)

banoffe2 · 01-10-2019 9:03pm

many thanks for taking the time to read and respond to my query AMA- this is an excellent thread.
You raised some very interesting points about alcoholism running in families and the other issues like depression- etc

I can honestly say yes to all, there is anger in families on all sides for generations back along about wills, family differences etc that never was resolved and they carried the resentment throughout life and to the grave, also the low self esteem, it all makes sense

While I am glad I found recovery and broke the cycle for myself, it comes with so many benefits as I feel so blessed to find a much healthier way of life free from the madness of excessive drinking and dysfunction

However there is a price to pay in that I am more isolated now since I got off the merry go round of denial. Wouldn't change it though, as I have a good quality of life, and good self worth, it requires maintenance every day, great to know we have choices. I am on good terms with myself and that has multiple benefits!

I've been to rehab, AMA · 02-10-2019 5:52am

Tell me how wrote: »

OP, I too have been a patient in St Pats previously (depression, no substance issues) and one thing that I really noticed while there was that the opening 2 questions most fellow patients had for every new entrant were, 'Have you been here before' and 'Who is your consultant'. Both questions were troubling to some degree, the first, because it strongly implied that you might not get better through being an inpatient and the second, because I saw many people be told negative things about their particular consultant before they had even had the opportunity to get to know them themselves.

The thing is though, regarding that first question "Have you been here before", the thing about most mental illnesses is that they are often chronic conditions where - even with the most successful treatment available to you - you go through periods of recovery and relapse. Think if it were a chronic physical condition, for example Cystic Fibrosis. You might go through your life with a fantastic medical team, that manages your illness really well, and you might have a great quality of life most of the time, but every now and then you have an acute attack of symptoms and end up hospitalised. No one would blame either you, for not staying 100% well all of the time, or your medical team, for not managing to prevent the relapse. Because relapse is part of the nature of the condition. Hospitalisation does not signify a failing by either the patient or the medical professionals, it's just what's necessary sometimes to keep a person safe during an acute crisis, until things are back under control.

In my opinion that's true for both addiction, and many other mental health conditions. Getting better is often an ongoing lifetime process, rather than a case of one admission and you're "fixed" for life. If you end up being readmitted even several times, it doesn't indicate some sort of a failing either by yourself or by the hospital, it's just what's often required to manage your illness. Think back to earlier in the last century, when people with a mental illness were often institutionalised for life. That doesn't often happen any more (thankfully!), even those with very complex diagnoses are given the opportunity to live a full active life outside of hospitals and institutions. One thing you may have heard before in St Pats is that, from the very date of your admission, your team are thinking and planning towards your discharge date. They don't want to keep you in there forever. But sometimes it's necessary for your safety to readmit you either to keep you safe, or to have you under close observation while your medication is reviewed, or whatever reason.

Someone who's had multiple admissions, I'd never see it as a failure on either their part or the hospital's part, often it's actually an example of someone whose illness is being managed extremely well.

Regarding the second question you mentioned that people ask, who your consultant is, I absolutely agree with you, I've observed the same myself. A new patient hears all kinds of awful things about their assigned consultant, or all kinds of great things about another consultant, and they're demanding to be switched before they've even met their doctor. It's unfortunate. Some wards in the hospital, almost all patients are assigned to just one consultant, at least then everyone's in the same boat, whether they like that consultant or not!

Tell me how wrote: »

It was also often implied that many people saw the venue/consultant as being responsible for getting people better and indeed, I saw many people complain while they were unfortunately, not helping themselves as much as they might.
To be fair to St Pats, they ran very good information sessions and the message in group sessions (and my experience 1 to 1) was that it was a collaborative effort but I did see some people struggle with this.

Did you see similar in your experiences in various venues, that people felt it was solely the responsibility of the venue to cure someone? Would you say it was a problem in that, as a consequence, some were less likely to become well because of unrealistic expectations and how did different venues deal with this scenario?

(Another rambling question I'm afraid)

Some people just enjoy wallowing in being the victim. You will find some people find constant fault in everything about a place, a program, the people.

In my experience this was far more noticeable in private places like St Pats - patients are very aware of how much an in-patient stay there costs (even though it's coming from health insurance rather than out of their own pocket) and they have ridiculous expectations. In my experience, in places like Coolmine, where many clients are coming in from homelessness, they have a hell of a lot more gratitude for the small things. (One guy I met who I'm very fond of had been on the streets for years, and it took him a while to get used to the concept of light switches, never mind the bigger "luxuries" like regular wholesome meals and clean clothes and a warm bed.)

An expression I like is, "Your wound is probably not your fault, but healing it is your responsibility." There was a period of time a couple of years ago, when I was at my lowest, that I saw myself as too damaged to ever have any sort of meaningful recovery. And that damage, it wasn't my fault, I couldn't have prevented the things that happened to me as a child. But I could throw the rest of my life away by continuing to engage in unhealthy coping mechanisms like alcohol and self-harm, or I can (and do) choose to accept my past - all of it - and choose to leave it behind me and make better choices going forward. I can now recognise in myself great strength and resilience in what I have overcome.

I don't think any institution can change someone's attitude in this respect, I think it's a choice you have to make yourself. In my experience though, the people I've met who are full of blame and resentments are far less likely to get any peace of mind or recovery. It's not a pleasant life at all.

I've been to rehab, AMA · 02-10-2019 5:58am

banoffe2 wrote: »

many thanks for taking the time to read and respond to my query AMA- this is an excellent thread.
You raised some very interesting points about alcoholism running in families and the other issues like depression- etc

I can honestly say yes to all, there is anger in families on all sides for generations back along about wills, family differences etc that never was resolved and they carried the resentment throughout life and to the grave, also the low self esteem, it all makes sense

While I am glad I found recovery and broke the cycle for myself, it comes with so many benefits as I feel so blessed to find a much healthier way of life free from the madness of excessive drinking and dysfunction

However there is a price to pay in that I am more isolated now since I got off the merry go round of denial. Wouldn't change it though, as I have a good quality of life, and good self worth, it requires maintenance every day, great to know we have choices. I am on good terms with myself and that has multiple benefits!

Congratulations on your recovery, it takes great strength to come out the other side.

Regarding the isolation, I have many "recovery supports" in that I am still a member of the Coolmine community, I am in regular contact with those that went through the program with me and with other graduates. I also am in touch with many other people I met in other programs along the way.

I do wonder, sometimes, though, how to extend my social circle to include people who aren't in recovery! I think it would be healthier to have a mix of people around me that includes people who've never known the struggle of addiction. I guess that will come naturally with time though; I'd still consider myself to be in relatively early recovery, maybe for now I'm actually better off still being immersed in recovery talk.

All the best for your continued recovery, being able to wake up each morning and look in the mirror with a clear conscience, with no regrets for the previous 24 hours, it's really priceless.

Gloomtastic! · 02-10-2019 9:55am

^ How do most people react when you tell them you're a recovering alcoholic? Or do you keep it quiet mostly?

LorelaiG · 02-10-2019 1:06pm

I've been to rehab, AMA wrote: »

The insurance cover for VHI is 91 days I think over any 5 year period, you also get up to 100 days for psychiatric illness ever year. So my time there would have been allocated between both types of cover.

The likes of St Pats, St John of Gods, the Rutland, Smarmore, Ais Eiri, White Oaks, Bushy Park, Tabor Group would be mostly covered by health insurance. Now I do know some people who've used up all of their health insurance addiction days and cover the costs for subsequent programs themselves - in the likes of St Pats, you'd be talking close to 30 grand for a months admission.

Coolmine charge I think €140 or thereabouts a week which is not covered by health insurance, in general it is taken out of the person's social welfare payment. (Many of Coolmine's clients are homeless going in, and are entitled to some form of social welfare.)

Other places such as Cuan Mhuire and Tig Linn (religious institutions) are not covered by VHI either, and would have similar rates to Coolmine. Possibly slightly cheaper actually as far as I remember.

Even 140 euro a week is quite expensive on the face of it, especially coming from a SW aspect, are all meals etc included in that?

Yester · 02-10-2019 1:32pm

Thank you for doing this AMA.

Widdensushi · 02-10-2019 2:29pm

It's the best AMA I have seen, these issues affect every family in the country, thank you for being brave enough to do this.

I've been to rehab, AMA · 02-10-2019 3:28pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

^ How do most people react when you tell them you're a recovering alcoholic? Or do you keep it quiet mostly?

Well, last autumn, I was asked by Coolmine to make a speech at a conference in Trinity College for a conference relating the Parenting Under Pressure (PUP), the parenting series run in Coolmine as part of the various residential and day programs. I'm really not a fan of public speaking, but I managed to come up with a fairly decent piece (if I do say so myself!) about my descent into addiction, what it was like being a mother in addiction and the surrounding stigma, and my pathway to recovery and how the Parenting Under Pressure work was invaluable to me.

Anyhow a copy of my speech was circulated to some media contacts at the time, and the Irish Times asked to do an interview with me. So there was a big two-page article published in the Parenting section of the Times, along with my name and photograph. Now I did have the option of doing the interview anonymously, but I believe that there is still far too much stigma in this country around mental health issues and addiction. I'm generally a very private person, but the way I saw it, there's no point in giving out that stigma exists if you aren't willing to step up and confront that stigma. Also, I felt that the article would be more powerful if readers could put a face to the story. I discussed this decision with my parents and with the father of my child - I wouldn't have gone ahead with it if they'd had any objections, it's not just my own personal business I was discussing, they were all mentioned too so it was only fair and right to ask them first.

Pat Kenny also invited myself and the CEO of Coolmine to come onto his show on Newstalk and do an interview with him about Coolmine and about PUP, and about my story. Whatever about doing the Irish Times interview, I was so nervous about going on the radio, but it went okay I guess in the end.

I got really positive feedback from the article and from the radio interview, and also from attendees of the conference in Trinity. It gave people hope regarding loved ones they had in addiction who hadn't managed to come out the far side yet, and also I suppose it challenged peoples preconceptions of what a mother in addiction looks like. I'm an intelligent educated woman who was lucky enough to have many opportunities in life, but I still ended up in the absolute depths of despair through addiction. It was good to be able to put a face and a voice to addiction, which is I guess what I'm doing through this AMA too.

I also need to be boundaried though, my recovery needs to come first. I did feel quite exposed and vulnerable when all that media exposure was happening last year; I was supposed to do this AMA then but I ended up postponing it for a long time (and thanks to Niamh for being so understanding about that!) Doing something like this, well I've been lucky enough to have gotten only positive feedback so far, but there's always the risk that I could be attacked or put down or whatever ... I needed to be sure I'm in a strong enough place mentally that something like that wouldn't set me back. Thankfully there's been no negativity like that, but if there was, I'm confident it wouldn't upset me.

So to answer your question, I don't exactly go around announcing to everyone I meet that I'm an alcoholic. However I'm also very aware that, if anyone were to Google my name, that Irish Times article pops right up. And I'm fine with that, I really have nothing to be ashamed about - after all, I've come through the other side. I don't want or expect anyone to give me any special treatment or allowances because of my past, but neither do I owe it to anyone to give them my entire life history the first time I meet them. I share my story when it's relevant, or when I feel it might help others. When I do share it, I speak my truth in my own way and on my own terms. When I don't want to discuss it, I'm very clear regarding my boundaries - I don't owe it to anyone to explain myself.

I've been to rehab, AMA · 02-10-2019 3:33pm

LorelaiG wrote: »

Even 140 euro a week is quite expensive on the face of it, especially coming from a SW aspect, are all meals etc included in that?

Absolutely everything is included in that - meals, rent and bills, all aspects of the program. Coolmine is all about life skills, and part of that is money management. Say if you're on €180 social welfare a week, the way it works is you pay the full €180 a week to Coolmine, then they give you €40 back as spending money for the week (it's called WAM, which I think means Walking-Around-Money?) Mothers who have their babies living in the treatment centre with them get given €70 back, to allow for formula and nappies etc. The idea is that - regardless of your background and circumstances - no client has more money than anyone else.

Now I was very lucky, I'm pretty much the only alcoholic/addict in history who doesn't smoke, so I had a good bit more disposable income each week than any of the other girls I was on the program with, as I didn't have to buy cigarettes or tobacco!

Coolmine is accessible to just about everyone regardless of financial circumstances. I've never heard of money being a barrier to anyone who wanted to do the program there, the staff work with the clients to figure it out. And for anyone who really doesn't want to pay the €140 a week for the residential program, they can always choose to do one of the day programs instead, which are free.

I've been to rehab, AMA · 02-10-2019 4:03pm

LorelaiG wrote: »

Even 140 euro a week is quite expensive on the face of it, especially coming from a SW aspect, are all meals etc included in that?

I've just answered this above, but I wanted to make the additional point that, in their addiction, any addict/alcoholic worth their salt would've been spending in excess of €140 per week on their substance of choice. If you can justify spending it on your addiction, surely your recovery is worth that much too.

Lisha · 04-10-2019 9:16pm

Best of luck to you op.

Overitforgood · 11-10-2019 2:31pm

I just wanted to say what an amazing achievement. Well done and fair play! You are very inspiring for me. I just posted a thread today in personal issues which maybe you could read OP? I’d be really grateful if you could and offer me some advice on what steps I should be taking, like: really guy away?

Thanks

I've been to rehab, AMA · 12-10-2019 8:37am

Lisha wrote: »

Best of luck to you op.

Overitforgood wrote: »

I just wanted to say what an amazing achievement. Well done and fair play! You are very inspiring for me. I just posted a thread today in personal issues which maybe you could read OP? I’d be really grateful if you could and offer me some advice on what steps I should be taking, like: really guy away?

Thanks

Thank you, I appreciate your kind words.

Lisha · 12-10-2019 2:57pm

I've been to rehab, AMA wrote: »

Thank you, I appreciate your kind words.

I had a much longer reply typed but I couldn’t properly express what I was thinking. Apologies if this is too clumsy but I’m going to try.

Op I’m in awe of you and how you have made the best of things for yourself. I appreciate it hasn’t been easy but thst makes your achievements all the greater imho.

One of my biggest issues with ireland is the piss poor amount of services available to the mentally unwell, and to those who suffer addictions. People have to be at breaking point and worse before they can get help. I think that if better services were available at earlier stages it would greatly benefit society as a whole.

I fear someone close to me who has self esteem issues ( yo put it mildly I fear a few more issues may be at play ) may be in danger of addiction issues. But as it’s seen as ‘being social’ and he is a great guy who wouldn’t cause an argument in any situation it’s not recognised as an issue. He holds down a job and is a a great guy. I think if more support was available when he was on school to deal with his educational problems his esteem might be better and so his prospects might be better and he would see more of a positive future fir himself.

So that’s why I believe a greater investment in people’s mental health would benefit so many.

I wish you nothing but the best for the future op.

I've been to rehab, AMA · 12-10-2019 3:27pm

Lisha wrote: »

I had a much longer reply typed but I couldn’t properly express what I was thinking. Apologies if this is too clumsy but I’m going to try.

Op I’m in awe of you and how you have made the best of things for yourself. I appreciate it hasn’t been easy but thst makes your achievements all the greater imho.

One of my biggest issues with ireland is the piss poor amount of services available to the mentally unwell, and to those who suffer addictions. People have to be at breaking point and worse before they can get help. I think that if better services were available at earlier stages it would greatly benefit society as a whole.

I fear someone close to me who has self esteem issues ( yo put it mildly I fear a few more issues may be at play ) may be in danger of addiction issues. But as it’s seen as ‘being social’ and he is a great guy who wouldn’t cause an argument in any situation it’s not recognised as an issue. He holds down a job and is a a great guy. I think if more support was available when he was on school to deal with his educational problems his esteem might be better and so his prospects might be better and he would see more of a positive future fir himself.

So that’s why I believe a greater investment in people’s mental health would benefit so many.

I wish you nothing but the best for the future op.

I've said it already but I've been soooo incredibly lucky to have had access to private mental health services throughout all of this. My parents have always had health insurance for us, and from when I started working several years ago I started paying for my own VHI. Then when I got ill and couldn't work anymore, my parents put me back on their policy.

I've had some extremely traumatic experiences in public hospitals that I just don't feel comfortable going into detail about here. It wasn't even just discrimination against me because of my addiction - times that I engaged with the public system when completely sober but in crisis, my experiences were just as bad.

You might remember a case a couple of years ago where a traveller girl, Stacey Ring, who suffered from dual diagnosis put up videos of her experience of the public mental health services, where she was suicidal and was basically laughed at in the hospital and turned away? She died of suicide just days later. My own experiences were very similar. You turn up at a hospital at a point where you already place very little value on your life, but there's this tiny little glimmer of self-protection making you at least attempt to get some help. And you're basically told, you're right, your life is worth feck all and no one here cares if you live or die, so go on off home and do whatever the hell you want to yourself.

I am sure there are plenty of individuals working in public hospitals who are great at what they do. However my own experience in several A&E departments, and seeing public psychiatrists in non-crisis situations, just weren't good. I've plenty of friends with similar experiences.

I can't see any of that changing any time soon, I'd just really stress the importance of private health insurance for anyone who can afford it. It shouldn't be that way, when it comes to life or death situations, money shouldn't matter - we should all be entitled to the same standard of care. Unfortunately the gap between public and private psychiatric care is just disgustingly vast in this country. And the victims - like the girl I mentioned above - are usually people who struggle to be heard, they are often from marginalised groups (like in her case, the travelling community). So the extent of the problem can so easily be swept under the carpet by the HSE. It's very unfair.

Beagslife · 12-10-2019 5:01pm

Thank you for doing this. I'm sure it will be very helpful to many in this Country.

I want to ask your opinion on the need for residential treatment. It obviously worked for you in the end. Do you think (based on experiences or conversations that you have had with others) that sobriety can be achieved on a long term basis by a combination of will power, AA, or addiction counselling services without resorting to residential treatment? Or do you feel it really is the holy grail for long term living without alcohol.

I have a family member who has had issues for many years. Many extreme lows and lots of personal tragedy to deal with. Never treated residentially but working with councillors in recent years. Currently doing very well thank God. Would you still recommend a stay in the likes of Coolmine for someone in that kind of situation?

Separately, I recently gave up alcohol as a choice based on years of seeing it's affects all around me (sometimes bar worker!) and having read Jason Vale's 'Kick the Drink Easily'. Do you give much credence to such an approach for someone suffering from addiction? I found the book's approach eye opening.

Thanks again for opening this up.

I've been to rehab, AMA · 12-10-2019 5:52pm

Beagslife wrote: »

Thank you for doing this. I'm sure it will be very helpful to many in this Country.

I want to ask your opinion on the need for residential treatment. It obviously worked for you in the end. Do you think (based on experiences or conversations that you have had with others) that sobriety can be achieved on a long term basis by a combination of will power, AA, or addiction counselling services without resorting to residential treatment? Or do you feel it really is the holy grail for long term living without alcohol.

I have a family member who has had issues for many years. Many extreme lows and lots of personal tragedy to deal with. Never treated residentially but working with councillors in recent years. Currently doing very well thank God. Would you still recommend a stay in the likes of Coolmine for someone in that kind of situation?

Separately, I recently gave up alcohol as a choice based on years of seeing it's affects all around me (sometimes bar worker!) and having read Jason Vale's 'Kick the Drink Easily'. Do you give much credence to such an approach for someone suffering from addiction? I found the book's approach eye opening.

Thanks again for opening this up.

I hope this doesn't sound like a cop-out, but it really does depend so much on the person and on their unique set of circumstances. Money - does the person have a job to consider, do they have health insurance or not? Family - does the person have dependents, what age, who will look after them if the person goes into treatment? How severe is the problem (a difficult one to assess)? Are there mental/physical health issues to consider too? What's the person's support system like? Is a detox necessary or not? And so much more to consider.

I remember this question came up in David Scheff's memoir "Beautiful Boy", a very good book, about his son who was in addiction and went through several treatments. His view was that it mightn't seem like rehab programs work, particularly when someone has been through a few and still resumes drinking/using, but the fact is that - even if the person relapses immediately on leaving the program - the time spent in there is clean time, time that is good for that person's health and time that kept the person in a safe place and - possibly, in many cases - saved their life.

An addiction counsellor I know from St Pats often uses the "cookie jar" analogy, that you may be passing a cookie jar around from person to person to try and open it, and the person who opens it may not be any stronger than any of the others before them - they were able to open it, because the seal was weakened by the others. You can see how that applies to treatment; one program or type of treatment may suddenly work for someone when others didn't, it's not necessarily a case that this was the "best" treatment, but it may be a case that the person picked up some tools and coping mechanisms in every program along the way, and suddenly something just stuck for them in the last program they did. A certain phrase, a certain way of looking at things, whatever.

From my own experience from being around people in early recovery so many times, I honestly think it's best to be in a safe place if a person is sobering up, often for the first time in many years. The guilt and shame you face in those early weeks is just overwhelming. I know, personally, I'd almost always start self-harming when in early recovery, so it was generally just best for me to be away from sharp things. Especially since I'd have been either living alone, or later on (even worse) in homeless hostels when I'd have been detoxing. It just would never have been safe for me.

On the other hand if someone had a really strong and understanding support system around them, and say if they were living with a partner or other family, it may be more appropriate to do an out-patient detox (in conjunction with a GP) and do meetings etc, see how they got on. Leave rehab as an option down the line if this approach didn't work out.

For the relative you mentioned, while obviously I don't know all the details, if they have health insurance I'd be suggesting St Pats or St John of Gods as a first step before considering longer-term programs like Coolmine. Especially as you say they're currently doing well.

As regards meetings, while AA isn't a big part of my life, I think in general people can be too quick to write off the whole fellowship approach. Every group is unique, if a person has been to one meeting and doesn't like it, if they try around a few different groups they may well find another that works better for them. The saying "the opposite of addiction is connection" is very true, addiction thrives when a person is in isolation. Even if someone can't get on board with the 12-step approach, they can still benefit from getting to know good strong people in the meetings. Also, if you've tried lots of AA meetings and they're not working for you, I'd strongly recommend trying NA and CA meetings too. I've never used cocaine but CA is still the fellowship I get most out of, and you're absolutely welcome in NA and CA meetings even if alcohol was your only drug. They all have different vibes and different ways of approaching the 12-step program. Outside of these groups, you also have Lifering (mostly only in Dublin) which is really excellent, especially for those who prefer a secular approach. I have also heard good things about SMART Recovery, though I've never done it myself. Aware and Grow meetings are great for anyone who suffers from mental health issues too.

You mentioned books too - I found reading such a fantastic help in early recovery, although it took a few months for my concentration levels to improve enough that I could read again. Both how-to style recovery books, and memoirs of addiction recovery. I found it great to just immerse myself in all things recovery-related, so that I didn't take my eye off the ball.

TLDR

Rehab is absolutely not the be-all and end-all, and I know plenty of people who've gotten good recovery without ever going to rehab. BUT, it is a fantastic resource for anyone who has the time and means to go there, and I think that after years of abusing ourselves it's not a bad idea to take some time out to really give ourselves a break, mentally and physically, and try to gain some perspective on why things had gotten so bad for us. For those who do decide on an in-patient approach, I would always advise one which focuses on reintegration with society (such as Coolmine or St Pats) rather than the places that shut you off from the outside world.

For those who cannot/do not want to go to rehab, but want to get clean, I would always suggest a GP as first port of call, and regular attendance at all/any of the meetings above, until you find an approach that works for you.

dar100 · 12-10-2019 5:59pm

I've been to rehab, AMA wrote: »

Gremlinertia wrote: »

Well done for continuing to battle through some major losses..

Is there a rehab facility you rate above others?. If so may i ask why?

Coolmine, by a long shot. It's where I finally got some meaningful recovery.

Some of the things Coolmine offers that other places don't:
- Unlike many treatment centres, it's completely non-religious
- They are very family-centred - they are the only treatment centre in Ireland that allows mothers to bring their babies in with them, and they have a fantastic parenting program called Parenting Under Pressure for mums and dads in treatment. It really helped me to come to terms with all of my guilt about being a mother in addiction, and helped me to gain some confidence as a mother.
- It's based on community reinforcement, so the clients are essentially taking responsibility for helping each other in their recovery, rather than the staff doing the work for them.
- You learn fantastic life skills there
- They take a very holistic approach and look at every aspect of your life - things like housing, education, health, etc - the idea being that you build yourself a life that makes it worth staying clean and sober for. No point in getting sobriety and going back into the same environment that caused/worsened your addiction
- Their staff are excellent and really well-trained
- Their follow-up care (Aftercare etc) is really excellent, once you complete Coolmine you're part of the community for life.

I'm not going to bash any other treatment centres, but if anyone were to ask me for a recommendation, Coolmine is the one I'd recommend over all of the others. I'd have a complex dual diagnosis of alcoholism and mental health issues, and unlike other programs Coolmine worked really well for me for both the addiction and the mental health side of things.

I'm also still an out-patient with St Pats Psychiatric Hospital, I've done quite a few programs there and would speak very highly of them too. However a 28-day program was unfortunately just never going to cut it for someone with an addiction as deep-set as mine!

Well done, I'm a graduate of 10 years or so.

Beagslife · 12-10-2019 7:16pm

I've been to rehab, AMA wrote: »

Beagslife wrote: »

Thank you for doing this. I'm sure it will be very helpful to many in this Country.

I want to ask your opinion on the need for residential treatment. It obviously worked for you in the end. Do you think (based on experiences or conversations that you have had with others) that sobriety can be achieved on a long term basis by a combination of will power, AA, or addiction counselling services without resorting to residential treatment? Or do you feel it really is the holy grail for long term living without alcohol.

I have a family member who has had issues for many years. Many extreme lows and lots of personal tragedy to deal with. Never treated residentially but working with councillors in recent years. Currently doing very well thank God. Would you still recommend a stay in the likes of Coolmine for someone in that kind of situation?

Separately, I recently gave up alcohol as a choice based on years of seeing it's affects all around me (sometimes bar worker!) and having read Jason Vale's 'Kick the Drink Easily'. Do you give much credence to such an approach for someone suffering from addiction? I found the book's approach eye opening.

Thanks again for opening this up.

I hope this doesn't sound like a cop-out, but it really does depend so much on the person and on their unique set of circumstances. Money - does the person have a job to consider, do they have health insurance or not? Family - does the person have dependents, what age, who will look after them if the person goes into treatment? How severe is the problem (a difficult one to assess)? Are there mental/physical health issues to consider too? What's the person's support system like? Is a detox necessary or not? And so much more to consider.

I remember this question came up in David Scheff's memoir "Beautiful Boy", a very good book, about his son who was in addiction and went through several treatments. His view was that it mightn't seem like rehab programs work, particularly when someone has been through a few and still resumes drinking/using, but the fact is that - even if the person relapses immediately on leaving the program - the time spent in there is clean time, time that is good for that person's health and time that kept the person in a safe place and - possibly, in many cases - saved their life.

An addiction counsellor I know from St Pats often uses the "cookie jar" analogy, that you may be passing a cookie jar around from person to person to try and open it, and the person who opens it may not be any stronger than any of the others before them - they were able to open it, because the seal was weakened by the others. You can see how that applies to treatment; one program or type of treatment may suddenly work for someone when others didn't, it's not necessarily a case that this was the "best" treatment, but it may be a case that the person picked up some tools and coping mechanisms in every program along the way, and suddenly something just stuck for them in the last program they did. A certain phrase, a certain way of looking at things, whatever.

From my own experience from being around people in early recovery so many times, I honestly think it's best to be in a safe place if a person is sobering up, often for the first time in many years. The guilt and shame you face in those early weeks is just overwhelming. I know, personally, I'd almost always start self-harming when in early recovery, so it was generally just best for me to be away from sharp things. Especially since I'd have been either living alone, or later on (even worse) in homeless hostels when I'd have been detoxing. It just would never have been safe for me.

On the other hand if someone had a really strong and understanding support system around them, and say if they were living with a partner or other family, it may be more appropriate to do an out-patient detox (in conjunction with a GP) and do meetings etc, see how they got on. Leave rehab as an option down the line if this approach didn't work out.

For the relative you mentioned, while obviously I don't know all the details, if they have health insurance I'd be suggesting St Pats or St John of Gods as a first step before considering longer-term programs like Coolmine. Especially as you say they're currently doing well.

As regards meetings, while AA isn't a big part of my life, I think in general people can be too quick to write off the whole fellowship approach. Every group is unique, if a person has been to one meeting and doesn't like it, if they try around a few different groups they may well find another that works better for them. The saying "the opposite of addiction is connection" is very true, addiction thrives when a person is in isolation. Even if someone can't get on board with the 12-step approach, they can still benefit from getting to know good strong people in the meetings. Also, if you've tried lots of AA meetings and they're not working for you, I'd strongly recommend trying NA and CA meetings too. I've never used cocaine but CA is still the fellowship I get most out of, and you're absolutely welcome in NA and CA meetings even if alcohol was your only drug. They all have different vibes and different ways of approaching the 12-step program. Outside of these groups, you also have Lifering (mostly only in Dublin) which is really excellent, especially for those who prefer a secular approach. I have also heard good things about SMART Recovery, though I've never done it myself. Aware and Grow meetings are great for anyone who suffers from mental health issues too.

You mentioned books too - I found reading such a fantastic help in early recovery, although it took a few months for my concentration levels to improve enough that I could read again. Both how-to style recovery books, and memoirs of addiction recovery. I found it great to just immerse myself in all things recovery-related, so that I didn't take my eye off the ball.

TLDR :D Rehab is absolutely not the be-all and end-all, and I know plenty of people who've gotten good recovery without ever going to rehab. BUT, it is a fantastic resource for anyone who has the time and means to go there, and I think that after years of abusing ourselves it's not a bad idea to take some time out to really give ourselves a break, mentally and physically, and try to gain some perspective on why things had gotten so bad for us. For those who do decide on an in-patient approach, I would always advise one which focuses on reintegration with society (such as Coolmine or St Pats) rather than the places that shut you off from the outside world.

For those who cannot/do not want to go to rehab, but want to get clean, I would always suggest a GP as first port of call, and regular attendance at all/any of the meetings above, until you find an approach that works for you.

Thanks again for coming back with such a detailed and thoughtful response. Food for thought!
Take care.

AndrewJRenko · 14-10-2019 10:45pm

I've been to rehab, AMA wrote: »

I've said it already but I've been soooo incredibly lucky to have had access to private mental health services throughout all of this. My parents have always had health insurance for us, and from when I started working several years ago I started paying for my own VHI. Then when I got ill and couldn't work anymore, my parents put me back on their policy.

I've had some extremely traumatic experiences in public hospitals that I just don't feel comfortable going into detail about here. It wasn't even just discrimination against me because of my addiction - times that I engaged with the public system when completely sober but in crisis, my experiences were just as bad.

You might remember a case a couple of years ago where a traveller girl, Stacey Ring, who suffered from dual diagnosis put up videos of her experience of the public mental health services, where she was suicidal and was basically laughed at in the hospital and turned away? She died of suicide just days later. My own experiences were very similar. You turn up at a hospital at a point where you already place very little value on your life, but there's this tiny little glimmer of self-protection making you at least attempt to get some help. And you're basically told, you're right, your life is worth feck all and no one here cares if you live or die, so go on off home and do whatever the hell you want to yourself.

I am sure there are plenty of individuals working in public hospitals who are great at what they do. However my own experience in several A&E departments, and seeing public psychiatrists in non-crisis situations, just weren't good. I've plenty of friends with similar experiences.

I can't see any of that changing any time soon, I'd just really stress the importance of private health insurance for anyone who can afford it. It shouldn't be that way, when it comes to life or death situations, money shouldn't matter - we should all be entitled to the same standard of care. Unfortunately the gap between public and private psychiatric care is just disgustingly vast in this country. And the victims - like the girl I mentioned above - are usually people who struggle to be heard, they are often from marginalised groups (like in her case, the travelling community). So the extent of the problem can so easily be swept under the carpet by the HSE. It's very unfair.

Thanks, this very helpful, though very shocking to see that private health insurance is basically a prerequisite.

I'd imagine that most people with addiction issues are unlikely to be in a position where they've maintained their health insurance throughout the bad times.

Now ye're talking - to someone who has been through rehab

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