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Turkish forces have started bombing and attacking Kurdish people in Syria

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    #32
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    ollkiller wrote: »
    The Kurd's have been american allies for decades now fighting on the same side against many enemies. And he's just thrown them under the bus. Do you even understand what allies are. Your analogy is total bull****.
    its not bullsh!t that the US get blamed for pretty much everything. When they act as World Police they get slated. When they dont, they still get slated.


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    #33
    s7ryf3925pivug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    its not bullsh!t that the US get blamed for pretty much everything. When they act as World Police they get slated. When they dont, they still get slated.
    Who exactly slated them for attacking Isis?


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    #34
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Turkey is in an unusual situation.
    It's like that mate we all have that we really don't like, but we tolerate because of "Some Reason"

    The "some reason" in this case for the US is power projection in the middle east.

    Knowing Better has a great video on Turkey:


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    #35
    lleti
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 271 ✭✭lleti


    ollkiller wrote: »
    The Kurd's have been american allies for decades now fighting on the same side against many enemies. And he's just thrown them under the bus. Do you even understand what allies are. Your analogy is total bull****.

    Yeah and France and the US are allies who invaded Iraq. What's your point?

    Syria is not the US's problem.

    Too long the US have meddled in foreign countries.

    Where are the UK or France working with the Kurds then? Why does it have to be the US?


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    #36
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Tessa Petite Yokel wrote: »
    From my understanding this is not an option they have. The only way they'll be negotiating for more than their lives will be if they bloody Assad's nose first.

    They still control the resources at the moment, I think Assad will be pragmatic enough to negotiate and get it all finished quickly, if it gets the Americans out before they can change their mind (or President)

    Has anyone been following the relationship between Assad and Erdogan? What's it like now? A few years ago things were bad I thought and I can't imagine Assad is happy to lose more territory to a powerful force. Russia is the common ground at the moment but this is certainly not set in stone yet


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    #37
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    ollkiller wrote: »
    The Kurd's have been american allies for decades now fighting on the same side against many enemies. And he's just thrown them under the bus. Do you even understand what allies are. Your analogy is total bull****.

    A "Common enemy" and "Allies" are two very different things to be fair.

    US/UK = Allies
    US/Israel = Allies
    US/Kurds = Common Enemy, but not the same goal (The US does not want a Kurdish State, because that means alienating Turkey)
    US/Turkey = Allies (in an official sense via NATO)

    America got a nice kick in the teeth for itself over the S400/Patriot system disaster.
    And now Russia has said it's willing to sell it's new 4.5 and 5.0 Generation fighters to them (Turkey)

    This is a MAJOR issue for NATO.

    The rest of the NATO countries either need to kick Turkey out of NATO or make them fall in line.
    This business of "The rules don't apply to us" that Turkey seems to think is has, needs to stop.


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    #38
    ollkiller
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭ollkiller


    lleti wrote: »
    Yeah and France and the US are allies who invaded Iraq. What's your point?

    Syria is not the US's problem.

    Too long the US have meddled in foreign countries.

    Where are the UK or France working with the Kurds then? Why does it have to be the US?

    Look at all the articles coming from American troops in the area calling it a huge mistake. Never did i say Syria was America's problem. And they can withdraw troops all they want from the area. What they should do is protect their allies that have supported them in multiple campaigns against Isis.

    Turkey have been itching to get in there and sort out the Kurds. All America has to do is tell Turkey that idea is off the table and try it at your peril. But that would require a leader with morals and a backbone. Who stands up to tyranny. But he dosen't. It's an absolute reprehensible decision. How many innocent Kurds will die today in air strikes and artillery fire who until this week were fighting Isis and helping Western interest. It's f**king shameful. i suppose because the Kurd's are the wrong colour they are not worth protecting.


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    #39
    TheW1zard
    Registered Users Posts: 1,340 ✭✭✭TheW1zard


    Who's selling the bombs to the Turks?

    $$$

    Case Closed


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    #40
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭weisses


    lleti wrote: »
    Yeah and France and the US are allies who invaded Iraq. What's your point?

    Syria is not the US's problem.

    Too long the US have meddled in foreign countries.

    Where are the UK or France working with the Kurds then? Why does it have to be the US?

    Because the US is responsible for the rise/forming of ISIS


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    #41
    ollkiller
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭ollkiller


    Beta Ray Bill wrote: »
    A "Common enemy" and "Allies" are two very different things to be fair.

    US/UK = Allies
    US/Israel = Allies
    US/Kurds = Common Enemy, but not the same goal (The US does not want a Kurdish State, because that means alienating Turkey)
    US/Turkey = Allies (in an official sense via NATO)

    America got a nice kick in the teeth for itself over the S400/Patriot system disaster.
    And now Russia has said it's willing to sell it's new 4.5 and 5.0 Generation fighters to them (Turkey)

    This is a MAJOR issue for NATO.

    The rest of the NATO countries either need to kick Turkey out of NATO or make them fall in line.
    This business of "The rules don't apply to us" that Turkey seems to think is has, needs to stop.

    Good point well made. I think the American troops serving with the Kurd's on the front line see them as allies anyway.


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    #42
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭weisses


    Its time for that orange idiot to go to Dallas and take a tour around town in an open limo


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    #43
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    ollkiller wrote: »
    Good point well made. I think the American troops serving with the Kurd's on the front line see them as allies anyway.

    I agree on that.
    I'd say on the ground, they see each other as allies.

    But from a political point of view they're not. (Not enemies either though)

    Interestingly, the Soviet Union tried to help create a Kurdish state during the cold war.


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    #44
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    I'm no Trump fan but he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The UN have convened a meeting and EU leaders are preparing a joint statement, which means the UN will do what they usually do, sit back and do nothing but have meetings and wait for America to step in and sort it out. Rwanda anyone? Look at what's happening in China, can't remember hearing any statements from the UN on that, Uigher people in concentration camps, nope the UN has nothing to say about that either. I think Americans are sick and tired of their young people dying in countries they couldn't point to on a map.


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    #45
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭weisses


    blueshade wrote: »
    I'm no Trump fan but he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The UN have convened a meeting and EU leaders are preparing a joint statement, which means the UN will do what they usually do, sit back and do nothing but have meetings and wait for America to step in and sort it out. Rwanda anyone? Look at what's happening in China, can't remember hearing any statements from the UN on that, Uigher people in concentration camps, nope the UN has nothing to say about that either. I think Americans are sick and tired of their young people dying in countries they couldn't point to on a map.

    So what is your rationale for the US pulling out overnight leaving the kurds to be massacred by turkey ... How is trump damned if he kept those forces there ?


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    #46
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    TheW1zard wrote: »
    Who's selling the bombs to the Turks?

    $$$

    Case Closed

    Whose selling the weapons to the Saudis?


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    #47
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    weisses wrote: »
    So what is your rationale for the US pulling out overnight leaving the kurds to be massacred by turkey ... How is trump damned if he kept those forces there ?

    Americans don't want American troops dying for a war that's nothing to do with them. As far as I'm concerned, fook it, leave em all to it and let them kill each other.


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    #48
    enricoh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,841 ✭✭✭enricoh


    I watched a great documentary on Channel 4 last year about an english lad that went fighting isis with the kurds. He had a go-pro with him and had footage of firefights etc.

    He done his 6 or 9 month stint and returned to normal life and channel 4 made a programme with the footage 6 months later. At the end of it they updated him on how the squad was getting on. Virtually all them were dead. Their own state was the least they deserved after whipping isis


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    #49
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    blueshade wrote: »
    Americans don't want American troops dying for a war that's nothing to do with them. As far as I'm concerned, fook it, leave em all to it and let them kill each other.

    No.

    If Turkey was left to it, they'd invade Armenia and probably Azerbaijan and kill A LOT of people (maybe even Georgia).

    Ya don't just "leave a country to it" if it can be avoided.


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    #50
    lleti
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 271 ✭✭lleti


    weisses wrote: »
    Because the US is responsible for the rise/forming of ISIS

    Yes because they meddled in foreign countries.


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    #51
    lleti
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 271 ✭✭lleti


    Beta Ray Bill wrote: »
    No.

    If Turkey was left to it, they'd invade Armenia and probably Azerbaijan and kill A LOT of people.

    Ya don't just "leave a country to it" if it can be avoided.

    Didn't see anyone fighting back v Russia on Ukraines side.


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    #52
    Ihatewhahabies
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Ihatewhahabies


    Beta Ray Bill wrote: »
    A "Common enemy" and "Allies" are two very different things to be fair.

    US/UK = Allies
    US/Israel = Allies
    US/Kurds = Common Enemy, but not the same goal (The US does not want a Kurdish State, because that means alienating Turkey)
    US/Turkey = Allies (in an official sense via NATO)

    America got a nice kick in the teeth for itself over the S400/Patriot system disaster.
    And now Russia has said it's willing to sell it's new 4.5 and 5.0 Generation fighters to them (Turkey)

    This is a MAJOR issue for NATO.

    The rest of the NATO countries either need to kick Turkey out of NATO or make them fall in line.
    This business of "The rules don't apply to us" that Turkey seems to think is has, needs to stop.

    Agreed on most of above. There is one major difficulty there is no mechanism within Nato to kick any member out of NATO. This empowers Erdogan enormously vis a vis NATO. Hence no real sanctions for the S400 deal. It will be interesting if Turkey buys Russian military planes, this will confirm that NATO has lost Turkey totally to Russia/China, IMO is true already.

    Economically Turkey is making serious strides in decoupling from the "west" not that the West really welcomed them in the past ...see the never ending negotiations to join the EU. Causing Erdogan to look "east".

    Always remember the US abandoned the Iraqi Kurds after their referendum for independence. How did the Syrian Kurds miss that fact. I do not believe they are that naïve. Hence I wonder how much we see is actually an illusion. The opposite may be true.

    Perhaps Erdogan and Assad are secret allies, and some of the Syrian Kurds know this and are actually paving the way for Assad to retake control east of the Euphrates without too much blood shed.

    I live in hope that all Syria is returned to its people within it borders including Israel occupied Golan


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    #53
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    blueshade wrote: »
    Americans don't want American troops dying for a war that's nothing to do with them. As far as I'm concerned, fook it, leave em all to it and let them kill each other.

    How many Americans have died in this war? Very few (8 according to wiki) because the Americans let the Kurds do the dying for them this time, 11,000 dead by some estimates. Now they are abandoning them to be killed by an American ally.. can't you see how despicable that is? Not to mention just plain nonsensical from pretty much any viewpoint, including anti-war. Considering all the bombing and killing the Americans are responsible for in the rest of the world, they're screwing up one of the rare places that they had actually made more stable


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    #54
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,808 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    blueshade wrote: »
    Americans don't want American troops dying for a war that's nothing to do with them. As far as I'm concerned, fook it, leave em all to it and let them kill each other.

    Speak for yourself...

    https://www.mediaite.com/uncategorized/fox-news-reporter-cites-ashamed-special-ops-soldier-serving-with-kurdish-forces-atrocities-are-happening/


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    #55
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    lleti wrote: »
    Didn't see anyone fighting back v Russia on Ukraines side.

    True, Ukraine has no dependable Allies.
    Years of switching from Pro Russia to Pro Europe have left them in the middle with no support from anyone.
    Ihatewhahabies wrote: »
    It will be interesting if Turkey buys Russian military planes, this will confirm that NATO has lost Turkey totally to Russia/China, IMO is true already.

    I feel the same, they've already lost Turkey.
    The planes will be the final nail in the Coffin. US has said it is now unwilling to sell the F-35 to Turkey, which leaves only Russia to buy from.
    Ihatewhahabies wrote: »
    Economically Turkey is making serious strides in decoupling from the "west" not that the West really welcomed them in the past ...see the never ending negotiations to join the EU. Causing Erdogan to look "east".

    They have so many human rights issues, they'll never be able to join the EU. They still deny the Armenian genocide to this day.
    Once they're out of NATO, The EU and US will be able to sanction the hell out of them, the West of the country will lose all it's holiday trade (Huge business for them)..
    Yeah they'll still be able to do Business with Russia and to extent China. but they'll be cut off from their closest neighbors and where the closest revenue stream is.


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    #56
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    blueshade wrote: »
    Rwanda anyone? .

    You're using an example of where a genocide occurred after a 3rd party force pulled out to recommend that a 3rd party force pulls out.

    That makes it sound like you're pro-genocide.


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    #57
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    Say what you want about Trump, but he’s not a warmonger. His government are undertaking a rapid and strategic withdrawal from the Middle East. They have engineered energy independence on their own soil, and are leaving the geopolitics to the EU, Russia, Turkey, Iran and China.

    War is about money as is strategic withdrawal. He didn't do it because he's having a bed in with Melania John and Yoko style.
    He left allies to be butchered. Peaceful man.
    Wouldn't be surprised if Putin asked him to.


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    #58
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    Overheal wrote: »
    Speak for yourself...

    https://www.mediaite.com/uncategorized/fox-news-reporter-cites-ashamed-special-ops-soldier-serving-with-kurdish-forces-atrocities-are-happening/

    Ask the average working class American how they feel about their young people dying in a war in a place they can't even pronounce and you'll be told they don't want that. Citing an alleged special ops soldier is neither here nor there.


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    #59
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    Brussels Sprout wrote: »
    You're using an example of where a genocide occurred after a 3rd party force pulled out to recommend that a 3rd party force pulls out.

    That makes it sound like you're pro-genocide.

    Ha, sounds like your clutching at straws. The UN sat back and allowed what happened in Rwanda just as they will sit back and do nothing while Turkey bombs the Kurds, well..I say nothing but they'll blame Trump cause well Trump is white and Christian, can't really be calling out the Muslims now can they? I've heard more criticism of Trump than of Erdogan so far, why is that? It's not Trump invading Turkey and bombing the Kurds. Jesus, don't put me in a position where I have to defend Trump.


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    #60
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blueshade wrote: »
    Ask the average working class American how they feel about their young people dying in a war in a place they can't even pronounce and you'll be told they don't want that. Citing an alleged special ops soldier is neither here nor there.

    Be fair, if there was money in it Trump would have built a base there ffs.


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    #61
    TheW1zard
    Registered Users Posts: 1,340 ✭✭✭TheW1zard


    blueshade wrote: »
    Whose selling the weapons to the Saudis?

    The same people who are selling to the Turks!


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