Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

littlemac1980 · 04-10-2019 4:23pm

"A version of Theresa May’s deal is the only way out of the Brexit nightmare"

by Simon Jenkins

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/03/theresa-may-deal-brexit

""..The only sensible way forward must now be to separate Brexit on 31 October from the resolution of these fiendish trading arrangements. The UK should formally leave the EU on time, and draw Brexit’s poison from the British body politic. This means parking the fate of the ongoing customs union in the transition period, as under Theresa May’s deal. But that involves agreeing a framework for its eventual resolution. Here the ideal for everyone should be stop rabbiting on about borders, and for the EU to take a gamble on easing the backstop. Of course the Northern Ireland government should not have a veto, but the British parliament should. The backstop should go on ice..."

Seriously what's wrong with these people.

Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees. The author rightly rubbishes Bojo's proposals as being unworkable, then proceeds to declare "everyone's ideal" situation is for the EU to relax on the backstop, to trust Britian and that London should have the Veto on any non-border solution in Ireland.

Comments like these from established members of the Brit media for what are (at least) established publications particularly at this stage are just... well... sad.

Kermit.de.frog · 04-10-2019 4:45pm

Simon Jenkins is normally very sensible. Surprising.

Rjd2 · 04-10-2019 4:50pm

Water John wrote: »

Lib Dems will regain seats in the SW, taking mainly from Tories.

Yeah agree, think they are a much bigger problem for Tories rather than Labour.

Its hard to know predict tactical voting and alliances, but at the moment I'd trust the remain party more than the Leave parties. Swinson and Corbyn loath each other but so do Farage and Cummings.

Itssoeasy · 04-10-2019 5:12pm

So Simon Coveney must be doing something right as Arlene Foster is giving out about him. The neck of the DUP to call others "intransigent" is just amazing.

Hurrache · 04-10-2019 5:19pm

Bizarrer and bizarrer
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1180148038649700358

EU talks with the UK have officially ended, they've said the current proposals aren't a basis for an agreement and for the UK to come back Monday with more details.

GM228 · 04-10-2019 5:20pm

Good thread from the managing director of the Eurasia Group on the views of senior member state and EU ofricials:-

https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1180144353077026816?s=19

Interesting to note the EP wanted to outright reject the proposal, but Juncker and the EC convinced them not to.

littlemac1980 · 04-10-2019 5:29pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Bizarrer and bizarrer
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1180148038649700358

EU talks with the UK have officially ended, they've said the current proposals aren't a basis for an agreement and for the UK to come back Monday with more details.

One can only presume the "New Deal" being referred to here is another agreement to grant a further extension. Zzzzzzzzz.......... someone please wake me up when those clowns have finally left the EU please so we can all move on and occasionally visit the English Isle for some cheap piss-up weekends.

Enzokk · 04-10-2019 5:31pm

Does the Benn act state the deal must be one acceptable to the EU? He could possibly get away with not sending the letter that way, get his deal passed by parliament and then avoid having to send the letter. I am missing something, right?

BonnieSituation · 04-10-2019 5:38pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Single market and customs union with a vote every 4 years not subject to a single community veto is a deal I think would work.

It's still daft for NI economically though to have that uncertainty every 4 years.

It won't work. Not a hope. And why would we agree to such nonsense?

prawnsambo · 04-10-2019 5:38pm

Enzokk wrote: »

Does the Benn act state the deal must be one acceptable to the EU? He could possibly get away with not sending the letter that way, get his deal passed by parliament and then avoid having to send the letter. I am missing something, right?

Iirc it stipulates a deal. Something written on the back of a fag packet in Downing Street does not constitute a deal. And the timing of the Benn Act implicitly means that the EuCo have agreed to it, making it an actual deal.

Scoondal · 04-10-2019 5:40pm

The UK government has said that it will request a Brexit extension. And they will definitely leave EU on 31 October.
This is what we are dealing with ... UK government playing games with EU. Their arrogance and playing a game in such a serious situation is unbelievable for what used to be a respected country.

Infini · 04-10-2019 5:44pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The NI Secretary is open to the petition of concern being scrapped specifically for votes on regulatory alignment:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/04/stormont-party-veto-could-be-ditched-for-brexit-says-minister

That thing has been abused by the DUP and to be honest needs to be curtailed or removed outright.

04-10-2019 5:47pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

That was brilliant from Bonnie Greer. Great to see our American friends speaking up for us.

Quite amazing the parts of the world that support is coming from. And, moreover, it took her some courage to say that on British tv when her livelihood is made there in that far bigger market than Ireland. Not many people would have that sort of guts.

It reminded me instantly of that ineffably brilliant Samuel L. Jackson interview years ago with a British journalist named Kate Thornton.

Anyway, I just heard about Bonnie Greer on the way home this afternoon as she was being interviewed by Mary Wilson on Drivetime. She was exceedingly articulate, recounting how when she lived in Kilburn in the 1980s, having just settled in Britain, an Irishman in a pub said to her 'I only realised I was black when I opened my mouth in this country.' She then proceeded to tell us what so many British do not know: it's the US Congress which decides trade deals and not the US president.

I recall reading an English MP from the 1840s or 1850s warning English people about the consequences for England of millions of Irish fleeing to America. I think it was John Bright but I can't find the exact quote. At any rate, all the voices coming from so many corners of US society - most critically Richard Neal and Nancy Pelosi - are bearing witness to this now.

Behind it all, let us never forget, is John Hume. It was genius of Hume to get the US and EU to act as guarantors of the GFA.

J Mysterio · 04-10-2019 5:51pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

She was exceedingly articulate, recounting how when she lived in Kilburn in the 1980s, having just settled in Britain, an Irishman in a pub said to her 'I only realised I was black when I opened my mouth in this country.'

That's hilarious. Reminds one of the speech in the Commitments.

Tea Shock · 04-10-2019 5:52pm

Infini wrote: »

That thing has been abused by the DUP and to be honest needs to be curtailed or removed outright.

The the petition of concern mechanism cannot be removed or edited without reopening the GFA. A non-runner!

Water John · 04-10-2019 5:53pm

We should make Bonnie Greer an Honorary Ambassador for Ireland.

humberklog · 04-10-2019 5:53pm

Could someone clear something up for me.

So it looks like Boris is going to have to ask the EU for an extension by the 19th.

I'm reading on Twitter that there might be shennanigans afoot by the Tories to get the Hungarians onside to veto the request.

Have I read that right? Why would Britain look for a country to veto their request?

Or have I got it all wrong?

Water John · 04-10-2019 5:57pm

All 27 EU countries have to agree to an Ext, otherwise the request falls. Remember the last time the UK Tory MP of Polish extraction looking for his home country to block it.

BonnieSituation · 04-10-2019 5:57pm

Infini wrote: »

That thing has been abused by the DUP and to be honest needs to be curtailed or removed outright.

Raising the threshold to 35/40 could help in general. But not for this reason.

What isn't helping is the UKGOV linking procedural aspects of the GFA to Brexit.

Changing it will require buy-in from all sides, including the Irish government. And given it will be tied to a moronic plan for Brexit I can't see anyone agreeing to it.

J Mysterio · 04-10-2019 5:58pm

humberklog wrote: »

Could someone clear something up for me.

So it looks like Boris is going to have to ask the EU for an extension by the 19th.

I'm reading on Twitter that there might be shennanigans afoot by the Tories to get the Hungarians onside to veto the request.

Have I read that right? Why would Britain look for a country to veto their request?

Or have I got it all wrong?

Its a very outlandish theory and I dont subscribe to it, but the idea is as follows:

1. Johnson says he wants No Deal
2. The Benn Act forces him to ask for an extension
3. He will ask for the extension under duress
4. He will ask or bribe an EU country to veto the extension.
5. UK crashes out of EU.

Can't see it happening.

I think Johnson is pretending he wants to leave on Oct 31st 'come what may'.

He really wants the extension so UK can have a GE. He wants a shot at gaining a majority to out some weight behind him in further negotiations with the EU

humberklog · 04-10-2019 6:03pm

Water John wrote: »

All 27 EU countries have to agree to an Ext, otherwise the request falls. Remember the last time the UK Tory MP of Polish extraction looking for his home country to block it.

Yeah, I get that.

So are the Tories looking to get the Hungarians onside to support their extension request?

Most of what I (think) I've been reading appears to suspect the Tories are looking at getting the Hungarians to veto their extension request.

humberklog · 04-10-2019 6:04pm

Ah... Thanks J Mysterio.

So it's kinda the conspiratorial end of the spectrum.

Probably says more about the people I follow on Twitter.

Itssoeasy · 04-10-2019 6:07pm

Scoondal wrote: »

The UK government has said that it will request a Brexit extension. And they will definitely leave EU on 31 October.
This is what we are dealing with ... UK government playing games with EU. Their arrogance and playing a game in such a serious situation is unbelievable for what used to be a respected country.

How can anyone with any sense not see how those two positions can't be squared.

Scoondal · 04-10-2019 6:09pm

humberklog wrote: »

Could someone clear something up for me.

So it looks like Boris is going to have to ask the EU for an extension by the 19th.

I'm reading on Twitter that there might be shennanigans afoot by the Tories to get the Hungarians onside to veto the request.

Have I read that right? Why would Britain look for a country to veto their request?

Or have I got it all wrong?

Ah ..didn't know that. Of course any EU country can reject a Brexit extension.

An Ciarraioch · 04-10-2019 6:11pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Bizarrer and bizarrer
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1180148038649700358

EU talks with the UK have officially ended, they've said the current proposals aren't a basis for an agreement and for the UK to come back Monday with more details.

As per Alberto Nardelli:

https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1180151019050881024

blackcard · 04-10-2019 6:11pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So Simon Coveney must be doing something right as Arlene Foster is giving out about him. The neck of the DUP to call others "intransigent" is just amazing.

This from the party of 'Never, never, never' and 'Not an inch', the party of Sammy Wilson, the neanderthal party stuck in a backwater. They don't even realise how stupid they look coming out with this

Quin_Dub · 04-10-2019 6:16pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Its a very outlandish theory and I dont subscribe to it, but the idea is as follows:

1. Johnson says he wants No Deal
2. The Benn Act forces him to ask for an extension
3. He will ask for the extension under duress
4. He will ask or bribe an EU country to veto the extension.
5. UK crashes out of EU.

Can't see it happening.

I think Johnson is pretending he wants to leave on Oct 31st 'come what may'.

He really wants the extension so UK can have a GE. He wants a shot at gaining a majority to out some weight behind him in further negotiations with the EU

In his letter to the Scottish courts today he explicitly committed to not doing that - "He will not frustrate the court/Benn Act"

All smoke and mirrors.

Scoondal · 04-10-2019 6:16pm

humberklog's post here has informed me about the apparent contradictory statements of UK government. Hungary will oppose a Brexit extension.

Scoondal · 04-10-2019 6:18pm

Scoondal wrote: »

humberklog's post here has informed me about the apparent contradictory statements of UK government. Hungary will oppose a Brexit extension.

UK government will apply for a Brexit extension as per UK law but Hungary will deny such an extension.

Water John · 04-10-2019 6:19pm

Yes, the placing of custom checks on the island of Ireland won't be a bridge crossed by the EU. UK told go back to the drawing board, over the weekend.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/04/boris-johnson-brexit-plan-european-commission-no-grounds-weekend-negotiations

“We will meet again on Monday to give the UK another opportunity to present its proposals in detail.” The spokeswoman added that the proposals did not “provide a basis for concluding an agreement”.