tiling on old pine floor boards- unstable

seefin · 23-09-2019 07:47PM

listermint wrote:

Too much adhesive?!

Maybe not adhesive. Too much 'something' , whatever they level off. I'm so ignorant of tiling and want to stay that wayðŸ˜€

olestoepoke · 23-09-2019 07:52PM

I installed my bathroom tiles on floorboards years ago and no problems. Heres what I done. Took up the floorboards in a few places and added loads of extra bridgers to the floor joists. Screwed down the floorboards, 2 screws to each joist. Installed a Shluter Ditra mat over the floorboards and then installed my tiles. Over 5 years later and the tiles and grout are perfect not moving or cracking.

cheif kaiser · 23-09-2019 11:18PM

listermint wrote: »

Magnesium board is for walls. Its too brittle for a floor, this is not sound advice. It has its uses but throwing it on the floor because they forgot to get Ply is not it which i would imagine is what happened in your case.

I disagree! It is advertised as being suitable for floor tiling and is not brittle. My floor hasn't moved in a year.

I work for a large hotel and all the tiles were laid on top of wbp ply and numerous floors have failed. They don't use it anymore. They use Magnesium board which is why I requested it for my floor.

listermint · 24-09-2019 10:02AM

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I disagree! It is advertised as being suitable for floor tiling and is not brittle. My floor hasn't moved in a year.

I work for a large hotel and all the tiles were laid on top of wbp ply and numerous floors have failed. They don't use it anymore. They use Magnesium board which is why I requested it for my floor.

It is brittle though. Thats not up to question. Have you considered they may have put it down to tank on top of it for waterproofing. not that ply cant do the same but it might explain they put it in for rot.

Ive not idea other that that reason why they would have done it.

And if the floors that were put down in the hotel were done with WBP then it was installed incorrectly. i.e the ply was not fixed to the subfloor correctly.

cheif kaiser · 24-09-2019 09:15PM

listermint wrote: »

And if the floors that were put down in the hotel were done with WBP then it was installed incorrectly. i.e the ply was not fixed to the subfloor correctly.

Pure Conjecture!

All wood, even plywood will expand and contract, especially when hot water pipes run directly under the floor, as you will find with all bathroom floors.

The floors that failed, all failed along the joint lines where the wood expands.

Plywood is no longer recommended for this very reason.

listermint · 25-09-2019 01:16PM

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Pure Conjecture!

All wood, even plywood will expand and contract, especially when hot water pipes run directly under the floor, as you will find with all bathroom floors.

The floors that failed, all failed along the joint lines where the wood expands.

Plywood is no longer recommended for this very reason.

This is not true.

Just for clarity sake.

Its plainly not true.

Lumen · 25-09-2019 02:09PM

Devil is in the detail.

Here's weber's take (involving their products, obvs).

https://www.uk.weber/tile-fixing/tiling-wood

Personally, I don't see the point in boarding over existing floor boards, I'd rather take those up lay a properly screwed and glued subfloor (e.g. OSB), and then ply or mgo board over the top, and then tile on that.

kingbhome · 28-09-2019 09:49AM

Shocking tiling straight over loose floorboards with a mating! Always prep your floors properly. Even the tiling isca mess! Rip it up, useva product called nomore ply, screw it down with self tappers along with adhesive supplied with it and it'll never move. Prime it , tile it and job done!

cheif kaiser · 30-09-2019 03:15AM

listermint wrote: »

This is not true.

Just for clarity sake.

Its plainly not true.

Ah but it is true...

Lumen wrote: »

Devil is in the detail.

Here's weber's take (involving their products, obvs).

https://www.uk.weber/tile-fixing/tiling-wood

Personally, I don't see the point in boarding over existing floor boards, I'd rather take those up lay a properly screwed and glued subfloor (e.g. OSB), and then ply or mgo board over the top, and then tile on that.

Unfortunately, Weber either be lying so as to continue to sell their products, which are all based around the use of plywood, or they don't know the results of recent research.

Here's British Standards take on the subject... https://www.bal-adhesives.com/important-changes-to-bs-5385-1-wall-and-floor-tiling/ Can also be found here https://www.ardexbuildingproducts.ie/bs-5385-1-wall-and-floor-tiling/

Here's a little snippet ....

As part of the five-year review of British Standards and reflecting changes within the tiling industry since 2009 – BS 5385 Part 1: 2018 has now been published.

One significant change made was to exclude the use of plywood as a background material for the direct fixing of ceramic wall and natural stone tiles.

Clause 6.1.2.7 Other sheets and boards (see also 6.2.3.3) now states:

“The use of sheets or boards that are subject to movement from changes in moisture content should be avoided. Plywood and other wood-based sheets or boards should not be used for direct tiling”.

listermint · 30-09-2019 03:23PM

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Ah but it is true...

Unfortunately, Weber either be lying so as to continue to sell their products, which are all based around the use of plywood, or they don't know the results of recent research.

Here's British Standards take on the subject... https://www.bal-adhesives.com/important-changes-to-bs-5385-1-wall-and-floor-tiling/ Can also be found here https://www.ardexbuildingproducts.ie/bs-5385-1-wall-and-floor-tiling/

Here's a little snippet ....

As part of the five-year review of British Standards and reflecting changes within the tiling industry since 2009 – BS 5385 Part 1: 2018 has now been published.

One significant change made was to exclude the use of plywood as a background material for the direct fixing of ceramic wall and natural stone tiles.

Clause 6.1.2.7 Other sheets and boards (see also 6.2.3.3) now states:

“The use of sheets or boards that are subject to movement from changes in moisture content should be avoided. Plywood and other wood-based sheets or boards should not be used for direct tiling”.

Did you read your own articles.

This is BAL selling their own products and claiming cheap plywood is the cause.

Here is a little snippet for you

A significant uplift in the use of tile backer boards – such as BAL Board – and a wide variation in quality of plywood available on the market has provided a solid case for the removal of plywood from the standards.

David Wilson, UK Head of Technical Services at BAL and member of the TTA Technical Committee said: “Previously it was recognised in BS5385 Part 1: 2009 that tiling direct to plywood was possible, providing this was restricted to small areas and be “installed in such a way that they provide a dimensionally stable and rigid background” the quality of plywood for tiling purposes has decreased significantly with cheaper imports flooding the market.

“While higher quality external grade plywood is still available – it is significantly more expensive.

more of the same, manufacturers creating products to sell you that are infinitely more expensive. Guff in otherwords.

If you buy cheap plywood and dont fix it as designed then you will get problems.

Plywood is fine, if its fixed as it should be.

The end.

Have you ever installed any of this yourself btw ??

Lumen · 30-09-2019 08:31PM

A more balanced article here.

http://www.tileandstonejournal.com/featured-articles/plywood-outlawed-as-wall-tiling-substrate/

It was agreed that for existing timber floors, plywood overlay is still acceptable to tile to in small internal dry areas, if it is a minimum 15mm thick and of an appropriate quality exterior grade.

This is because many houses still have timber floors, particularly at first floor level, which may require over boarding with plywood to ensure the floor is suitably rigid and strong enough to receive a tiled finish and any addition loads.

FWIW my last bathroom was tiled over plywood and perfect for the 12 years I was in the house.

GreeBo · 30-09-2019 09:42PM

The crux seems to be a substrate that remains stable when wet... which ply won't, hence advising using it for dry areas only.

listermint · 01-10-2019 08:13AM

GreeBo wrote: »

The crux seems to be a substrate that remains stable when wet... which ply won't, hence advising using it for dry areas only.

That's not the crux.

If your ply is getting wet then you have a had a truly crappy bathroom installation.

Let's be clear. If the ply has wet expectations then the ply should be marine grade and the the entire room should be covered in wet room material and tanked.

Thread is full of some absolute nonsense frankly, and some words masquerading as gospel by folks who I believe never laid a tile or a piece of ply in their life.

cheif kaiser · 01-10-2019 09:39AM

listermint wrote: »

That's not the crux.

If your ply is getting wet then you have a had a truly crappy bathroom installation.

Let's be clear. If the ply has wet expectations then the ply should be marine grade and the the entire room should be covered in wet room material and tanked.

Thread is full of some absolute nonsense frankly, and some words masquerading as gospel by folks who I believe never laid a tile or a piece of ply in their life.

Whether you think it nonsense or not is irrelevant!

Whether a person has every laid a tile in their life is also irrelevant, especially if they have over 25 years experience overseeing the tiling and re-tiling of over 200 bathrooms and watching how they last over the years. Bet you don’t have that experience, no matter how many tiles you may have laid.

British Standards did a five year research and came up with the same conclusions...

Ply is no longer recommended and if it has to be used, only marine grade is acceptable and only in small spaces.

End of!

Lumen · 01-10-2019 10:09AM

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Ply is no longer recommended and if it has to be used, only marine grade is acceptable and only in small spaces.

End of!

OK, but to be clear, these standards are about the dimensional stability of the backing board. That still raises the question of what the recommended build up is between the backing board and the joists to stop movement when the floor is walked across.

Presumably well screwed OSB would be fine?

cheif kaiser · 01-10-2019 10:32AM

Lumen wrote: »

OK, but to be clear, these standards are about the dimensional stability of the backing board. That still raises the question of what the recommended build up is between the backing board and the joists to stop movement when the floor is walked across.

Presumably well screwed OSB would be fine?

As long as you screw the floorboards down well, the backer board is supposed to be enough. There is further advice on how much tile adhesive and the gaps that should be left between tiles but you’d have to look them up.

If for structural purposes you wanted to add an extra layer, ply is still acceptable as long as you don’t tile directly on it.

listermint · 01-10-2019 01:18PM

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Whether you think it nonsense or not is irrelevant!

Whether a person has every laid a tile in their life is also irrelevant, especially if they have over 25 years experience overseeing the tiling and re-tiling of over 200 bathrooms and watching how they last over the years. Bet you don’t have that experience, no matter how many tiles you may have laid.

British Standards did a five year research and came up with the same conclusions...

Ply is no longer recommended and if it has to be used, only marine grade is acceptable and only in small spaces.

End of!

You work in a hotel.

No offence but big whoop.

You don't have the first clue about tiling or what it involves. You saw the tilers in your hotel put down magnesium board and a tiler told you that this was the job. Therefore you took it as gospel.

I put it to you that plywood is fine when installed correctly and has been and still is used for this purpose for decades.

You scare monger people out of it based of your job in a single hotel. It's embarrassing just stop it.

And go tile something you might then have some experience of it.

Previously you claimed magnesium board wasn't brittle. Which shows you've never worked with it.

Anyway as I said give reasonable advice but don't make stuff up. I don't like giving out on the internet tbh it's bad karma. But where I see advice that doesn't fit I have to call it.

cheif kaiser · 02-10-2019 12:17AM

listermint wrote: »

You work in a hotel.

No offence but big whoop.

You don't have the first clue about tiling or what it involves. You saw the tilers in your hotel put down magnesium board and a tiler told you that this was the job. Therefore you took it as gospel.

I put it to you that plywood is fine when installed correctly and has been and still is used for this purpose for decades.

You scare monger people out of it based of your job in a single hotel. It's embarrassing just stop it.

And go tile something you might then have some experience of it.

Previously you claimed magnesium board wasn't brittle. Which shows you've never worked with it.

Anyway as I said give reasonable advice but don't make stuff up. I don't like giving out on the internet the it's bad karma. But where I see advice that doesn't fit I have to call it.

Scaremongering!?!?!? Are you for real! I'm just posting the British Standards advice. Take it or don't. I don't really care.

I am also way more that a hotel worker. I have a great knowledge of all aspects of DIY and do the vast majority of work in my own house (including Tiling) because I don't trust Tradesmen, with their lumps of caulk and filler!!

This is now the second time that you have come behind me and tried to ridicule what I've said. Your last posts on some advice I gave someone were extremely rude i.e. Ignore Cheif Kaiser... Clueless. Nonsense, etc.

Now go away you're embarrassing yourself!!

GreeBo · 02-10-2019 07:50AM

listermint wrote: »

That's not the crux.

If your ply is getting wet then you have a had a truly crappy bathroom installation.

Let's be clear. If the ply has wet expectations then the ply should be marine grade and the the entire room should be covered in wet room material and tanked.

Thread is full of some absolute nonsense frankly, and some words masquerading as gospel by folks who I believe never laid a tile or a piece of ply in their life.

Many bathrooms have leaks...even if it's just a brief spill during the change of a tap or trap for example. Most of the time is not an issue but the point is that ply can and will expand when it gets wet and this can and will pop tiles.

Not everyone pays to tank their entire bathroom in case the kids splash from the bath, but if you are tanking (which I always do) then it means you are water conscious...why wouldn't you also use a substrate that is guaranteed to not have issues with water?

Also, WBP is not waterproof, the glue between the layers is.

Mango Joe · 08-10-2019 11:54AM

Seefin the cracking is happening because the layers underneath your floor tiles are moving causing the grout to fracture and crumble.

If your tiler genuinely thinks it has been done right he is delusional as there shouldn't be crack after 20 years not to mind weeks later.

Its more likely that he's not delusional and is hoping you'll just go away....

Ask him if you can have his permission to take 20 photos of his job 'done right' and put up on facebook with his name/business name beside it.

seefin · 08-10-2019 01:15PM

Update got retiled so been sorted . New tiler said it would have come apart in time so glad got redone. Bathroom company paid for it to be retiled

tiling on old pine floor boards- unstable

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