tiling on old pine floor boards- unstable

seefin

Got bathroom tiles recently. There's slight movement on a few tiles and have scraped my toe a few times on edge of tiles that are a bit higher than others and sharp edges. Someone was saying should have put plywood down first but the saying is using plywood isn't recommended any more and it was down correctly. Either way am left with a problem and to be honest am worried the tiles will get more unstable over time and start coming off or moving more. Anyone know a solution?

DublinDilbert

Tiles shouldn't be moving and also should be level, the adhesive should take up the difference in height. Thousands of floors all over the country are tiled on ply wood and are absolutely fine. The last few i've done i used magnesium board, available from most builder providers and it does the job quite well, won't absorb water, gives a nice stable surface for tiling on.

seefin

DublinDilbert wrote:

Tiles shouldn't be moving and also should be level, the adhesive should take up the difference in height. Thousands of floors all over the country are tiled on ply wood and are absolutely fine. The last few i've done i used magnesium board, available from most builder providers and it does the job quite well, won't absorb water, gives a nice stable surface for tiling on.

Tiling already done on pine floorboards though. Do we have to take up and start again, this time using backing board or what. There's Cory board down(not sure if spelt right). Maybe only a few tiles that aren't level but we're afraid that the unevenness was caused by tiles moving and that the problem will get worse over time. we haven't paid balance yet to tiler and want to be sure won't get worse.

DublinDilbert

Ok so some board was put down?? Is cory board the same as hard board? Can you take a pic at the edge of the tiles?

Hardboard is too thin for tiling and should only be used under lino etc... Base should be firm, level and tiles should be level, no sharp edges.

seefin

No hardwood was out down . Just this green and yellow soft material in photo. Don't know name, sorry. A few tiles aren't level and can see some cracks in grouting. Don't know if this is because they have shifted or if they were laid wrong day one. Bathroom guy said that he has it done right. Maybe he used some special adhesive that works on floorboards?

seefin

Here are some photos of tiles

listermint

This job is just all-round terrible.

Ply wood should have been out down and fixed to the pine. Then tiles fixed to the board.

This bathroom company are absolutely woeful. I've seen amateur jobs that are ten times better. I'd be livid.

Sixtoes

That looks like a disaster. Corriboard is what they use for election posters and packaging.

Stigura

There was once a raised railway line. At the bottom of its embankment ran a fence. Railway side of the fence was brambles. Other side of the fence was a very well kept public path.

The brambles became infested with rats. The local council, having, by then practicaly washed their hands of rodent control, paid some private 'professional' to deal with it.

What this idiot did was, basically, walk along the fence with a bucket of rat bait. Chucking handfuls over the fence. As a pro'; I was disgusted.

But, seeing those photo's? Wow! Speechless. I truly do now believe I've about seen it all.

Was this lads name " Yosser "?

cheif kaiser

Had a new bathroom installed about a year ago and they used Magnesium board screwed down to the floor boards. No issues with movement whatsoever.

Have also seen many bathroom installed on top of Ply and many have had issues such as cracking along the seams and lifting in areas.

Magnesium Board seems the better option IMHO.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

seefin wrote: »

Tiling already done on pine floorboards though. Do we have to take up and start again, this time using backing board or what. There's Cory board down(not sure if spelt right). Maybe only a few tiles that aren't level but we're afraid that the unevenness was caused by tiles moving and that the problem will get worse over time. we haven't paid balance yet to tiler and want to be sure won't get worse.

You need a solid backing board, corriboard is too lightweight and flexible, the adherence would be bad too as its plastic.

If that was my bathroom the whole lot would be up and redone. You already have uneven tiles and cracked grout and its on a recent job.

The finish is not good and there's way too much movement on the tiles with the current underlay, imagine what it will be like after you have spent a few years walking/showering etc on it.

Was this tiler recommended?

Sardonicat

A coat of wood primer on the ply stops it absorbing the tile adhesive. Tiled the bathroom floor 5 years ago and it's still perfect.

RobbieMD

What’s under the tiles looks to me like Qmat. A movement mat for tiling over.

Lumen

RobbieMD wrote: »

What’s under the tiles looks to me like Qmat. A movement mat for tiling over.

But that's for lateral decoupling, not for stiffness.

The tiles have lifted because there is vertical movement in the substrate.

It's a bizarre choice of materials for a really simple job. Baffling.

cheif kaiser

Looks like this stuff https://www.amazon.co.uk/DURAL-DUR709-Durabase-Anti-Crack-Matting/dp/B00C9KYX7A and is supposed to be installed like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXgqJOX0UEA

Maybe just not installed correctly!??!

RobbieMD

Lumen wrote: »

But that's for lateral decoupling, not for stiffness.

The tiles have lifted because there is vertical movement in the substrate.

It's a bizarre choice of materials for a really simple job. Baffling.

I was just addressing the thought that the tiler had used corriboard when it looks like it’s a movement mat he’s used.

seefin

RobbieMD wrote:

I was just addressing the thought that the tiler had used corriboard when it looks like it’s a movement mat he’s used.

My partner thought it was corroboard bit you're right it's likely qmat . So they should have used ply or magnesium board underneath this?

dodzy

Tiles up and redo

jmBuildExt

If there's significant movement in the joists or floorboards, that will have to be (or should have been) addressed before putting anything down.
(that will likely be your bathroom company's "defence")

Lumen

RobbieMD wrote: »

I was just addressing the thought that the tiler had used corriboard when it looks like it’s a movement mat he’s used.

No, as far as I can tell that movement mat is only a couple of mm thick and doesn't have a corrugated profile.

I thought you meant it had movement mat on top of the corriboard.

seefin

Lumen wrote:

No, as far as I can tell that movement mat is only a couple of mm thick and doesn't have a corrugated profile.

A few tile companies we called into today have said that qmat alone should be fine on floorboards? It's a new product and same effect as backer board

Lumen

seefin wrote: »

A few tile companies we called into today have said that qmat alone should be fine on floorboards? It's a new product and same effect as backer board

I don't see how it can. It seems to be designed to go on top of a screed or very solid wooden substrate, and is designed to allow differential movement in the lateral plane (i.e. slippage without cracking) not add stiffness.

Pine floorboards frequently have movement in them, depending on how they're attached to the joists below and how those joists are designed (i.e. span lengths, timber dimensions).

The source of truth in these matters is the product data sheet or application guide provided by the manufacturer.

mick121

Just throwing in my 2 cents here.I am not a tiler but have worked alongside and with them for many years,many moons ago and I do tile myself every now and again.What I was shown may be outdated but has served me well for many years.Check all floorboards are fixed well and rectify if needed.6 mm wbp plywood screwed down every 4 to 5 inches with no.4x25 screws.Your talking upwards of 250 screws per 8x4 sheet

RobbieMD

Lumen wrote: »

No, as far as I can tell that movement mat is only a couple of mm thick and doesn't have a corrugated profile.

I thought you meant it had movement mat on top of the corriboard.

I’ve only ever used qmat as a movement mat, and it has a rough textured finish on both sides, and is only a few mm thick, their site says its 3mm thick. Definetly looks like qmat to me. Op ask the tiler/ bathroom crowd what they used? Don’t mention the mat and see what they say.

listermint

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Had a new bathroom installed about a year ago and they used Magnesium board screwed down to the floor boards. No issues with movement whatsoever.

Have also seen many bathroom installed on top of Ply and many have had issues such as cracking along the seams and lifting in areas.

Magnesium Board seems the better option IMHO.

Magnesium board is for walls. Its too brittle for a floor, this is not sound advice. It has its uses but throwing it on the floor because they forgot to get Ply is not it which i would imagine is what happened in your case.

listermint

mick121 wrote: »

Just throwing in my 2 cents here.I am not a tiler but have worked alongside and with them for many years,many moons ago and I do tile myself every now and again.What I was shown may be outdated but has served me well for many years.Check all floorboards are fixed well and rectify if needed.6 mm wbp plywood screwed down every 4 to 5 inches with no.4x25 screws.Your talking upwards of 250 screws per 8x4 sheet

This!



And avoid the pipes ! :cool:

K.Flyer

At the end of the day, whatever they used was not fit for purpose. It is a shocking job and the tiling company should rectify it, even if that means pulling it all back up and doing it right.
Back when we used to do full bathroom renovations it was the method as described by Mick121 above that we followed and never had any problems with movement and tiles coming loose.

seefin

K.Flyer wrote:

At the end of the day, whatever they used was not fit for purpose. It is a shocking job and the tiling company should rectify it, even if that means pulling it all back up and doing it right. Back when we used to do full bathroom renovations it was the method as described by Mick121 above that we followed and never had any problems with movement and tiles coming loose.

Am so confused now. Bathroom guy said plywood more likely to cause issues and the qmat is best option. He's said they screwed down floorboards and then used the qmat. Thinks maybe his tilers just used too much adhesive in places and that's why some tiles are raised. Going to get a few tilers to call in during week and see what they say. I don't want hassle of ripping them out so hoping it's only the few kick up ones that need replacing and not entire floor. It's only bathroom in the house and we've already had 7 days of disruption during the refurb. Can't cope with 3 more days if entire floor has to come up. But if has to then it has to

listermint

seefin wrote: »

Am so confused now. Bathroom guy said plywood more likely to cause issues and the qmat is best option. He's said they screwed down floorboards and then used the qmat. Thinks maybe his tilers just used too much adhesive in places and that's why some tiles are raised. Going to get a few tilers to call in during week and see what they say. I don't want hassle of ripping them out so hoping it's only the few kick up ones that need replacing and not entire floor. It's only bathroom in the house and we've already had 7 days of disruption during the refurb. Can't cope with 3 more days if entire floor has to come up. But if has to then it has to

Too much adhesive?!

They would have picked that up when wiping them down.

I don't think these lads were tilers at all. Cowboys maybe but not tilers. Maybe he needs to get them DIY starter kits to make it easy for his lads to level them because it seems they haven't a clue what theyr doing if they can't level a tile

Odelay

Could they have installed the board in the wrong direction? Across the grain instead of with it?

seefin

Odelay wrote:

Could they have installed the board in the wrong direction? Across the grain instead of with it?

The tiles are wood effect and parallel with the floorboards underneath

seefin

listermint wrote:

Too much adhesive?!

Maybe not adhesive. Too much 'something' , whatever they level off. I'm so ignorant of tiling and want to stay that way😀

olestoepoke

I installed my bathroom tiles on floorboards years ago and no problems. Heres what I done. Took up the floorboards in a few places and added loads of extra bridgers to the floor joists. Screwed down the floorboards, 2 screws to each joist. Installed a Shluter Ditra mat over the floorboards and then installed my tiles. Over 5 years later and the tiles and grout are perfect not moving or cracking.

cheif kaiser

listermint wrote: »

Magnesium board is for walls. Its too brittle for a floor, this is not sound advice. It has its uses but throwing it on the floor because they forgot to get Ply is not it which i would imagine is what happened in your case.

I disagree! It is advertised as being suitable for floor tiling and is not brittle. My floor hasn't moved in a year.

I work for a large hotel and all the tiles were laid on top of wbp ply and numerous floors have failed. They don't use it anymore. They use Magnesium board which is why I requested it for my floor.

listermint

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I disagree! It is advertised as being suitable for floor tiling and is not brittle. My floor hasn't moved in a year.

I work for a large hotel and all the tiles were laid on top of wbp ply and numerous floors have failed. They don't use it anymore. They use Magnesium board which is why I requested it for my floor.

It is brittle though. Thats not up to question. Have you considered they may have put it down to tank on top of it for waterproofing. not that ply cant do the same but it might explain they put it in for rot.


Ive not idea other that that reason why they would have done it.


And if the floors that were put down in the hotel were done with WBP then it was installed incorrectly. i.e the ply was not fixed to the subfloor correctly.

cheif kaiser

listermint wrote: »

And if the floors that were put down in the hotel were done with WBP then it was installed incorrectly. i.e the ply was not fixed to the subfloor correctly.

Pure Conjecture!

All wood, even plywood will expand and contract, especially when hot water pipes run directly under the floor, as you will find with all bathroom floors.

The floors that failed, all failed along the joint lines where the wood expands.

Plywood is no longer recommended for this very reason.

listermint

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Pure Conjecture!

All wood, even plywood will expand and contract, especially when hot water pipes run directly under the floor, as you will find with all bathroom floors.

The floors that failed, all failed along the joint lines where the wood expands.

Plywood is no longer recommended for this very reason.

This is not true.


Just for clarity sake.

Its plainly not true.

Lumen

Devil is in the detail.

Here's weber's take (involving their products, obvs).

https://www.uk.weber/tile-fixing/tiling-wood

Personally, I don't see the point in boarding over existing floor boards, I'd rather take those up lay a properly screwed and glued subfloor (e.g. OSB), and then ply or mgo board over the top, and then tile on that.

kingbhome

Shocking tiling straight over loose floorboards with a mating! Always prep your floors properly. Even the tiling isca mess! Rip it up, useva product called nomore ply, screw it down with self tappers along with adhesive supplied with it and it'll never move. Prime it , tile it and job done!

cheif kaiser

listermint wrote: »

This is not true.

Just for clarity sake.

Its plainly not true.

Ah but it is true...

Lumen wrote: »

Devil is in the detail.

Here's weber's take (involving their products, obvs).

https://www.uk.weber/tile-fixing/tiling-wood

Personally, I don't see the point in boarding over existing floor boards, I'd rather take those up lay a properly screwed and glued subfloor (e.g. OSB), and then ply or mgo board over the top, and then tile on that.

Unfortunately, Weber either be lying so as to continue to sell their products, which are all based around the use of plywood, or they don't know the results of recent research.

Here's British Standards take on the subject... https://www.bal-adhesives.com/important-changes-to-bs-5385-1-wall-and-floor-tiling/ Can also be found here https://www.ardexbuildingproducts.ie/bs-5385-1-wall-and-floor-tiling/

Here's a little snippet ....

As part of the five-year review of British Standards and reflecting changes within the tiling industry since 2009 – BS 5385 Part 1: 2018 has now been published.

One significant change made was to exclude the use of plywood as a background material for the direct fixing of ceramic wall and natural stone tiles.

Clause 6.1.2.7 Other sheets and boards (see also 6.2.3.3) now states:

“The use of sheets or boards that are subject to movement from changes in moisture content should be avoided. Plywood and other wood-based sheets or boards should not be used for direct tiling”.

listermint

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Ah but it is true...




Unfortunately, Weber either be lying so as to continue to sell their products, which are all based around the use of plywood, or they don't know the results of recent research.

Here's British Standards take on the subject... https://www.bal-adhesives.com/important-changes-to-bs-5385-1-wall-and-floor-tiling/ Can also be found here https://www.ardexbuildingproducts.ie/bs-5385-1-wall-and-floor-tiling/

Here's a little snippet ....

As part of the five-year review of British Standards and reflecting changes within the tiling industry since 2009 – BS 5385 Part 1: 2018 has now been published.

One significant change made was to exclude the use of plywood as a background material for the direct fixing of ceramic wall and natural stone tiles.

Clause 6.1.2.7 Other sheets and boards (see also 6.2.3.3) now states:

“The use of sheets or boards that are subject to movement from changes in moisture content should be avoided. Plywood and other wood-based sheets or boards should not be used for direct tiling”.

Did you read your own articles.

This is BAL selling their own products and claiming cheap plywood is the cause.

Here is a little snippet for you

A significant uplift in the use of tile backer boards – such as BAL Board – and a wide variation in quality of plywood available on the market has provided a solid case for the removal of plywood from the standards.

David Wilson, UK Head of Technical Services at BAL and member of the TTA Technical Committee said: “Previously it was recognised in BS5385 Part 1: 2009 that tiling direct to plywood was possible, providing this was restricted to small areas and be “installed in such a way that they provide a dimensionally stable and rigid background” the quality of plywood for tiling purposes has decreased significantly with cheaper imports flooding the market.

“While higher quality external grade plywood is still available – it is significantly more expensive.

more of the same, manufacturers creating products to sell you that are infinitely more expensive. Guff in otherwords.

If you buy cheap plywood and dont fix it as designed then you will get problems.

Plywood is fine, if its fixed as it should be.


The end.

Have you ever installed any of this yourself btw ??

Lumen

A more balanced article here.

http://www.tileandstonejournal.com/featured-articles/plywood-outlawed-as-wall-tiling-substrate/

It was agreed that for existing timber floors, plywood overlay is still acceptable to tile to in small internal dry areas, if it is a minimum 15mm thick and of an appropriate quality exterior grade.

This is because many houses still have timber floors, particularly at first floor level, which may require over boarding with plywood to ensure the floor is suitably rigid and strong enough to receive a tiled finish and any addition loads.

FWIW my last bathroom was tiled over plywood and perfect for the 12 years I was in the house.

GreeBo

The crux seems to be a substrate that remains stable when wet... which ply won't, hence advising using it for dry areas only.

listermint

GreeBo wrote: »

The crux seems to be a substrate that remains stable when wet... which ply won't, hence advising using it for dry areas only.

That's not the crux.

If your ply is getting wet then you have a had a truly crappy bathroom installation.

Let's be clear. If the ply has wet expectations then the ply should be marine grade and the the entire room should be covered in wet room material and tanked.



Thread is full of some absolute nonsense frankly, and some words masquerading as gospel by folks who I believe never laid a tile or a piece of ply in their life.

cheif kaiser

listermint wrote: »

That's not the crux.

If your ply is getting wet then you have a had a truly crappy bathroom installation.

Let's be clear. If the ply has wet expectations then the ply should be marine grade and the the entire room should be covered in wet room material and tanked.



Thread is full of some absolute nonsense frankly, and some words masquerading as gospel by folks who I believe never laid a tile or a piece of ply in their life.

Whether you think it nonsense or not is irrelevant!

Whether a person has every laid a tile in their life is also irrelevant, especially if they have over 25 years experience overseeing the tiling and re-tiling of over 200 bathrooms and watching how they last over the years. Bet you don’t have that experience, no matter how many tiles you may have laid.

British Standards did a five year research and came up with the same conclusions...

Ply is no longer recommended and if it has to be used, only marine grade is acceptable and only in small spaces.

End of!

Lumen

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Ply is no longer recommended and if it has to be used, only marine grade is acceptable and only in small spaces.

End of!

OK, but to be clear, these standards are about the dimensional stability of the backing board. That still raises the question of what the recommended build up is between the backing board and the joists to stop movement when the floor is walked across.

Presumably well screwed OSB would be fine?

cheif kaiser

Lumen wrote: »

OK, but to be clear, these standards are about the dimensional stability of the backing board. That still raises the question of what the recommended build up is between the backing board and the joists to stop movement when the floor is walked across.

Presumably well screwed OSB would be fine?

As long as you screw the floorboards down well, the backer board is supposed to be enough. There is further advice on how much tile adhesive and the gaps that should be left between tiles but you’d have to look them up.

If for structural purposes you wanted to add an extra layer, ply is still acceptable as long as you don’t tile directly on it.

listermint

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Whether you think it nonsense or not is irrelevant!

Whether a person has every laid a tile in their life is also irrelevant, especially if they have over 25 years experience overseeing the tiling and re-tiling of over 200 bathrooms and watching how they last over the years. Bet you don’t have that experience, no matter how many tiles you may have laid.

British Standards did a five year research and came up with the same conclusions...

Ply is no longer recommended and if it has to be used, only marine grade is acceptable and only in small spaces.

End of!

You work in a hotel.

No offence but big whoop.

You don't have the first clue about tiling or what it involves. You saw the tilers in your hotel put down magnesium board and a tiler told you that this was the job. Therefore you took it as gospel.

I put it to you that plywood is fine when installed correctly and has been and still is used for this purpose for decades.

You scare monger people out of it based of your job in a single hotel. It's embarrassing just stop it.

And go tile something you might then have some experience of it.

Previously you claimed magnesium board wasn't brittle. Which shows you've never worked with it.

Anyway as I said give reasonable advice but don't make stuff up. I don't like giving out on the internet tbh it's bad karma. But where I see advice that doesn't fit I have to call it.

cheif kaiser

listermint wrote: »

You work in a hotel.

No offence but big whoop.

You don't have the first clue about tiling or what it involves. You saw the tilers in your hotel put down magnesium board and a tiler told you that this was the job. Therefore you took it as gospel.

I put it to you that plywood is fine when installed correctly and has been and still is used for this purpose for decades.

You scare monger people out of it based of your job in a single hotel. It's embarrassing just stop it.

And go tile something you might then have some experience of it.

Previously you claimed magnesium board wasn't brittle. Which shows you've never worked with it.

Anyway as I said give reasonable advice but don't make stuff up. I don't like giving out on the internet the it's bad karma. But where I see advice that doesn't fit I have to call it.

Scaremongering!?!?!? Are you for real! I'm just posting the British Standards advice. Take it or don't. I don't really care.

I am also way more that a hotel worker. I have a great knowledge of all aspects of DIY and do the vast majority of work in my own house (including Tiling) because I don't trust Tradesmen, with their lumps of caulk and filler!!

This is now the second time that you have come behind me and tried to ridicule what I've said. Your last posts on some advice I gave someone were extremely rude i.e. Ignore Cheif Kaiser... Clueless. Nonsense, etc.

Now go away you're embarrassing yourself!!

GreeBo

listermint wrote: »

That's not the crux.

If your ply is getting wet then you have a had a truly crappy bathroom installation.

Let's be clear. If the ply has wet expectations then the ply should be marine grade and the the entire room should be covered in wet room material and tanked.



Thread is full of some absolute nonsense frankly, and some words masquerading as gospel by folks who I believe never laid a tile or a piece of ply in their life.

Many bathrooms have leaks...even if it's just a brief spill during the change of a tap or trap for example. Most of the time is not an issue but the point is that ply can and will expand when it gets wet and this can and will pop tiles.

Not everyone pays to tank their entire bathroom in case the kids splash from the bath, but if you are tanking (which I always do) then it means you are water conscious...why wouldn't you also use a substrate that is guaranteed to not have issues with water?

Also, WBP is not waterproof, the glue between the layers is.

Mango Joe

Seefin the cracking is happening because the layers underneath your floor tiles are moving causing the grout to fracture and crumble.

If your tiler genuinely thinks it has been done right he is delusional as there shouldn't be crack after 20 years not to mind weeks later.

Its more likely that he's not delusional and is hoping you'll just go away....

Ask him if you can have his permission to take 20 photos of his job 'done right' and put up on facebook with his name/business name beside it.