Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

1…286287289291292…316

Comments

  • #8642
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭swampgas


    This description by Mike Stuchbery in the ByLine Times of the way the UK has changed in the last few years is (IMO) rather scary. Some of my own experiences visiting the UK regularly over recent years would be similar.
    https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/02/goodbye-to-all-that/

    One paragraph in particular stood out for me:
    The fatal weakness of the English, I believe, is their arrogance – their belief that the same cultivated hatreds that tore other nations apart and launched bloody genocide won’t have the same effect on them. Those that try to hold up a mirror to the past are mocked and scorned.

    The next few weeks could mark the point where we finally recognise that the UK has slipped past a point of no return.


  • #8643
    fergiesfolly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,493 ✭✭✭fergiesfolly


    Would the EU consider it best for all concerned, not to extend the the deadline, let the UK leave with no deal and start to rebuild the relationship again in negotiations afterwards.
    Surely there's too much toxicity between the two sides now to have any trust.
    UK staying in will mean Brexit MEPs constantly creative havoc in parliament, while UK media spread anti EU propaganda at home.
    I know the replies here will talk of the economic hardships and GFA, but how long can this nonsense continue?


  • #8644
    ambro25
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ambro25


    is_that_so wrote: »
    I actually don't expect much of anything, just the usual well-meaning determination to make progress.
    I'm on the ground, and have €10 on Bettel outdoing Varadkar if there's a Johnson-Bettel presser.

    Juncker is Luxembourgish too, lest people forget: they're politically very astute, but they don't do wooden tongue much. Just ask Asselborn (their SecState, of "f***" at Salvini -fame, back in May).


  • #8645
    ath262
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 250 ✭✭ath262


    fergiesfolly wrote: »
    Would the EU consider it best for all concerned, not to extend the the deadline, let the UK leave with no deal and start to rebuild the relationship again in negotiations afterwards.
    Surely there's too much toxicity between the two sides now to have any trust.
    UK staying in will mean Brexit MEPs constantly creative havoc in parliament, while UK media spread anti EU propaganda at home.
    I know the replies here will talk of the economic hardships and GFA, but how long can this nonsense continue?


    the UK have to request an extension first, and it appears Boris will resist and probably end up being tied up in some sort of legal wrangles and end up being delayed past Oct 31st, so I think it's possible the decision may be taken out of the EU's hands..



    agree with the second part re disruptive UK MEPs etc - imagine Farage or Widdicome as UK commisioner ?


  • #8646
    woohoo!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 803 ✭✭✭woohoo!!!


    Akrasia wrote: »
    woohoo!!! wrote: »
    Johnsons only option is to continue with the anti democratic attack line. A PM hurling from the ditch. I'd say he's calculating to get a majority in a GE and move swiftly towards a deal. The difficulty for him is, if the gamble doesn't work and he's the one that's been shouting for an election, then no deal consequnces will start to stick to him.

    From the EUs perspective, may be better to let the dust settle and say no an extension request if one forthcoming. Not a lot to be gained to roll in the mud with the intrigues of what passes for UK politics these days.
    This would be an awful strategy. If he campaigns in a GE based on delivering an ultra hard brexit and somehow manages to get a majority, and then he tries to use that majority to push through something akin to May's deal with a few minor changes, then he's setting himself up for a backbench rebellion that would render his majority meaningless.

    If he campaigns on a hard brexit and ends up in a coalition with the Brexit party, then between Farage and the ERG, he would have no majority for any kind of Deal with the EU either.
    Absolutely, yet I don't know what else he's hoping to achieve beyond power. And hoping the EU will blink.


  • Advertisement
  • #8647
    Shelga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,051 ✭✭✭Shelga


    Listened to Jo Swinson on Radio 4 this morning and thought she came across as very unlikeable and arrogant. I’m as hardline a Remainer as there could possibly be, but you cannot just say you will unilaterally revoke article 50 and pretend the whole thing never happened. I think this latest Lib Dem policy is just more digging in of heels, no attempt to reach out to the other side, no attempt to reduce the polarity in UK politics at the moment.

    She’s clearly trying to be ‘bold’ as the new leader, all over the airwaves claiming she can go from 18 seats to a majority of 330+ in the HoC. It’s one thing to be ambitious, but try not to completely alienate half the electorate as you go. I think their previous policy of a second referendum was ideal- they were unequivocally Remain, but not without the informed consent of the public.

    She also completely rubbishes the SNP and Labour in every interview- also unnecessary and damaging, as she’ll likely have to work with one or both of them in the near future.

    Labour’s policy makes more and more sense to me. Never thought I’d say that! Imagine if, in theory, the Lib Dems got a majority with something like 35% of the vote (highly unlikely but still). They just revoke article 50 without a vote? Accusations of being undemocratic would be completely valid.


  • #8648
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,973 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Maybe ive got my tinfoil hat scrunched too tight but as more days of this nonsense go by i can't help but think and feel this whole mess is some kind of experiment or project that was engineered and not just to split UK/Europe and the west at large as many generally accept is Russia's longterm goal.

    The objective?

    Im not sure, maybe to see if one of the oldest democracies in the world can be shattered and broken for all the world to see and shown off as an example for some sinister purpose?

    Or to see if the politics of left and right can be replaced by something far more divisive and polarising and will ultimately distract people from the real crimes being perpetrated by the elite upon the impoverished?

    Its getting to the stage where it all just seems to perfect, especially in the levels of chaos constantly being created, leave or remain the rifts created in the UK will not be healed for a long long time and with either result there will be impact felt far afield for possibly just as long.


  • #8649
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,973 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Shelga wrote: »
    Labour’s policy makes more and more sense to me. Never thought I’d say that! Imagine if, in theory, the Lib Dems got a majority with something like 35% of the vote (highly unlikely but still). They just revoke article 50 without a vote? Accusations of being undemocratic would be completely valid.


    But they wouldnt be valid, if they campaigned on that platform and won the majority of seats then like it or not with FPTP that is currently and for quite a long time what has been considered democratic in the UK.


  • #8650
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Shelga wrote: »
    Listened to Jo Swinson on Radio 4 this morning and thought she came across as very unlikeable and arrogant. I’m as hardline a Remainer as there could possibly be, but you cannot just say you will unilaterally revoke article 50 and pretend the whole thing never happened. I think this latest Lib Dem policy is just more digging in of heels, no attempt to reach out to the other side, no attempt to reduce the polarity in UK politics at the moment.

    She’s clearly trying to be ‘bold’ as the new leader, all over the airwaves claiming she can go from 18 seats to a majority of 330+ in the HoC. It’s one thing to be ambitious, but try not to completely alienate half the electorate as you go. I think their previous policy of a second referendum was ideal- they were unequivocally Remain, but not without the informed consent of the public.

    She also completely rubbishes the SNP and Labour in every interview- also unnecessary and damaging, as she’ll likely have to work with one or both of them in the near future.

    Labour’s policy makes more and more sense to me. Never thought I’d say that! Imagine if, in theory, the Lib Dems got a majority with something like 35% of the vote (highly unlikely but still). They just revoke article 50 without a vote? Accusations of being undemocratic would be completely valid.

    Part of the problem with FPTP, apart from the obvious fact that voters have to vote strategically, is that political parties have to position themselves so that they will be as successful as possible despite the distortion that FPTP produces. All of the parties are affected by it. Here in Ireland we can be bewildered by the way British political parties and politicians position themselves, once the FPTP system is factored in it makes more sense.

    We can be grateful that the two attempts to introduce FPTP into Ireland in 1958 and 1968 were defeated.


  • #8651
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Nody wrote: »
    Farage has now come out stating he expects an extension as Boris "new deal" will not pass through the parliament;

    It looks to me as if Farage's favourite outcome would be No Brexit allowing him to get into Westminster by campaigning against the Tories. Of course, he can't say that, but...


  • Advertisement
  • #8652
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    fergiesfolly wrote: »
    I know the replies here will talk of the economic hardships and GFA, but how long can this nonsense continue?

    How long could Switzerland and Norway be joining without actually joining or calling it off?

    How long could Sweden be joining the Euro without actually joining or calling it off?

    History suggests this sort of nonsense can go on for 25 years or more.


  • #8653
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Shelga wrote: »
    you cannot just say you will unilaterally revoke article 50 and pretend the whole thing never happened.

    Obviously, the LibDems can't do this unless they get an overall majority, but there is nothing wrong with Swinson setting that out as her policy. If they win the next election, they can absolutely do it, they'll have a mandate to do it.

    In practice, the LDs are the fourth largest party and have no chance whatsoever of winning an overall majority, so a more likely outcome is a Labour/LD/Green government propped up by the SNP, who agree to hold another referendum with Revoke A50 as one option.


  • #8654
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    swampgas wrote: »
    Part of the problem with FPTP, apart from the obvious fact that voters have to vote strategically, is that political parties have to position themselves so that they will be as successful as possible despite the distortion that FPTP produces. All of the parties are affected by it. Here in Ireland we can be bewildered by the way British political parties and politicians position themselves, once the FPTP system is factored in it makes more sense.

    We can be grateful that the two attempts to introduce FPTP into Ireland in 1958 and 1968 were defeated.

    The mathematics behind the FPTP system is quite interesting actually. Over time it will create and protect the two party system. I hate to gloat over other political systems but STV PR is so well suited to modern politics.


  • #8655
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Mod: below standard posts deleted!

    Quick reminder of the rules outlined in the first post:
    Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
    Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
    Please do not be uncivil to other posters
    Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary

    Also: POLITICS CHARTER AND GUIDELINES


  • #8656
    woohoo!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 803 ✭✭✭woohoo!!!


    We're in the middle of a social media campaign. Buzz words like anti democratic abound, which can cover everything that a pov is against. The all too brief yellow hammer document is being dismissed as fantasy, merely the latest iteration of project fear. In the post Brexit era, all the problems will be dismissed as fake news or the fault of EU/remainers.

    Sunlit uplands will come if only people believed in making Britain great again. These logic free, tugging at emotions and feelings messages are the reason why no deal has such a high level of support. How to counter playing on fears and offering unicorns, that's where the challenge is.


  • #8657
    Shelga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,051 ✭✭✭Shelga


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Obviously, the LibDems can't do this unless they get an overall majority, but there is nothing wrong with Swinson setting that out as her policy. If they win the next election, they can absolutely do it, they'll have a mandate to do it.

    In practice, the LDs are the fourth largest party and have no chance whatsoever of winning an overall majority, so a more likely outcome is a Labour/LD/Green government propped up by the SNP, who agree to hold another referendum with Revoke A50 as one option.

    Bit hypocritical of them though, having campaigned for proportional representation, to take advantage of the FPTP system to ignore the Brexit referendum.


  • #8658
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Verhofstadt puts an interesting angle on a benefit of being a member of the EU...

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1173548730542448645


    Meanwhile Hulk actor Mark Ruffalo throws some cold water on an analogy used by Boris...

    https://twitter.com/MarkRuffalo/status/1173273612075376641


  • #8659
    beggars_bush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,909 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Shelga wrote: »
    Bit hypocritical of them though, having campaigned for proportional representation, to take advantage of the FPTP system to ignore the Brexit referendum.

    they'd have a much higher representation in a PR election though


  • #8660
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,665 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Seth Brundle wrote: »

    Meanwhile Hulk actor Mark Ruffalo throws some cold water on an analogy used by Boris...

    https://twitter.com/MarkRuffalo/status/1173273612075376641

    The LBC guy this morning said this a.m. "And at the end of his adventures, the Hulk steals clothes off a clothesline."


  • #8661
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,973 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Shelga wrote: »
    Bit hypocritical of them though, having campaigned for proportional representation, to take advantage of the FPTP system to ignore the Brexit referendum.

    How is it hypocritical? There is one set of rules, yes they campaigned to change them but they lost that fight so now they are playing by the rules that they have to use, to not do so would be handicaping themselves vs the other parties


  • Advertisement
  • #8662
    circadian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭circadian


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Maybe ive got my tinfoil hat scrunched too tight but as more days of this nonsense go by i can't help but think and feel this whole mess is some kind of experiment or project that was engineered and not just to split UK/Europe and the west at large as many generally accept is Russia's longterm goal.

    The objective?

    Im not sure, maybe to see if one of the oldest democracies in the world can be shattered and broken for all the world to see and shown off as an example for some sinister purpose?

    Or to see if the politics of left and right can be replaced by something far more divisive and polarising and will ultimately distract people from the real crimes being perpetrated by the elite upon the impoverished?

    Its getting to the stage where it all just seems to perfect, especially in the levels of chaos constantly being created, leave or remain the rifts created in the UK will not be healed for a long long time and with either result there will be impact felt far afield for possibly just as long.

    I present to you, The Foundation of Geopolitics by Aleksandr Dugin.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    I've noticed that Tories are calling Corbyn a chicken as often as possible, shoehorning it into conversations at will. As an outsider it's embarrassing to see because it just seems like rich schoolboy taunts. If the electorate fall for this tactic then they are well and truly doomed.


  • #8663
    SeaBreezes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭SeaBreezes


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Maybe ive got my tinfoil hat scrunched too tight but as more days of this nonsense go by i can't help but think and feel this whole mess is some kind of experiment or project that was engineered and not just to split UK/Europe and the west at large as many generally accept is Russia's longterm goal.

    The objective?

    Im not sure, maybe to see if one of the oldest democracies in the world can be shattered and broken for all the world to see and shown off as an example for some sinister purpose?

    Or to see if the politics of left and right can be replaced by something far more divisive and polarising and will ultimately distract people from the real crimes being perpetrated by the elite upon the impoverished?

    Its getting to the stage where it all just seems to perfect, especially in the levels of chaos constantly being created, leave or remain the rifts created in the UK will not be healed for a long long time and with either result there will be impact felt far afield for possibly just as long.

    The EU had become a force to be reckoned with in a trading sense... now what powers would benefit from a broken UK/ weakened EU..


  • #8664
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭trellheim


    ambro25 wrote: »
    I'm on the ground, and have €10 on Bettel outdoing Varadkar if there's a Johnson-Bettel presser.

    Juncker is Luxembourgish too, lest people forget: they're politically very astute, but they don't do wooden tongue much. Just ask Asselborn (their SecState, of "f***" at Salvini -fame, back in May).


    Any mood music coming out of Le Bouquet Garni ? come on someones normally briefing stuff here


  • #8665
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,177 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Statement
    President Jean-Claude Juncker and Prime Minister Johnson had a working lunch today in Luxembourg. The aim of the meeting was to take stock of the ongoing technical talks between the EU and the UK and to discuss the next steps.

    President Juncker recalled that it is the UK’s responsibility to come forward with legally operational solutions that are compatible with the withdrawal agreement. President Juncker underlined the commission’s continued willingness and openness to examine whether such proposals meet the objectives of the backstop. Such proposals have not yet been made.

    The commission will remain available to work 24/7. The October European Council will be an important milestone in the process. The EU27 remain united.

    President Juncker was accompanied by the European commission’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier.

    President Juncker will travel to Strasbourg later today and will address the plenary session of the European Parliament on Wednesday morning.


  • #8666
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,754 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Shelga wrote: »
    Bit hypocritical of them though, having campaigned for proportional representation, to take advantage of the FPTP system to ignore the Brexit referendum.

    What?


  • #8667
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Our exporters, at least, should weather the worst - 2019 sales to Germany almost equalling those to GB:

    https://cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/gei/goodsexportsandimportsjuly2019/


  • #8668
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,251 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Nody wrote: »
    Farage has now come out stating he expects an extension as Boris "new deal" will not pass through the parliament; what's with the lack of faith and hard positive thinking these days in the Brexiteer camp?! We were told that was all that was required and now they are backpedaling...

    Farage doesn't want any kind of a deal

    He's been banging on about a 'Clean Break' brexit in an attempt to re-brand 'no deal' or 'crash out'

    In a divorce, a clean break means a complete end of financial ties to each other. I wonder will Farage expect his MEP pension to still be paid after his 'clean break' happens and the UK renege on their financial commitments to the EU.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #8669
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,190 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    swampgas wrote: »
    This description by Mike Stuchbery in the ByLine Times of the way the UK has changed in the last few years is (IMO) rather scary. Some of my own experiences visiting the UK regularly over recent years would be similar.
    https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/02/goodbye-to-all-that/

    One paragraph in particular stood out for me:


    The next few weeks could mark the point where we finally recognise that the UK has slipped past a point of no return.

    Its a good article. The UK is already screwed though, in my opinion. Societal discourse, politics, hopelessnesly riven.

    This can't be put back together again, its effectively a civil war, though the violence hasn't started.


  • #8670
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Winters wrote: »
    The mathematics behind the FPTP system is quite interesting actually. Over time it will create and protect the two party system. I hate to gloat over other political systems but STV PR is so well suited to modern politics.

    What's curious too is that the British did a lot of work popularising and spreading it.
    ... because it was invented by the Englishman Thomas Hare and has been used in many parts of the former British Empire, STV has in the past been referred to as "British proportional representation". Nonetheless it has never been used by more than a handful of constituencies in the British Parliament. In 1917, the Speaker's Conference in the United Kingdom advocated the adoption of STV for 211 of the 569 constituencies in the UK, and instant-runoff voting for the rest. Although the House of Commons voted in favour of the proposals five times, the House of Lords continually rejected it until the nationwide effort was ultimately abandoned in parliament.

    From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_use_of_the_single_transferable_vote

    The HoC voted for STV 5 times, and 5 times the HoL blocked it. It doesn't reflect well on the UK's democratic credentials - an unelected group of peers repeatedly blocked the will of the elected MPs, and the the UK has suffered the consequences ever since.


  • Advertisement
  • #8671
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Farage doesn't want any kind of a deal

    He's been banging on about a 'Clean Break' brexit in an attempt to re-brand 'no deal' or 'crash out'

    In a divorce, a clean break means a complete end of financial ties to each other. I wonder will Farage expect his MEP pension to still be paid after his 'clean break' happens and the UK renege on their financial commitments to the EU.
    Well it just means national financial obligations. Employee pensions would still be paid.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement