Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

lola85 · 11-09-2019 01:57PM

Infini wrote: »

I honestly hope she does reopen it just as a subtle way of saying "piss off" to Boris for his shenanigans.

This whole excersice from the start has been based solely on lies, deciet, corrupt money, russian trolling and poisonous idiots with no interest in anything except themselves. It would be epic on so many levels if this ultimately leads to an A50 withdrawal and a significant investigation into all this as well as serious reform of their political structures AND reigning in deceptive media outlets to prevent anything like this happening again but the more this goes on the more I get the feeling there wont be a Brexit as it looks like the whole corrupt house of cards is starting to disintegrate under the weight of its own deception.

Not forgetting David Cameron’s fathers dodgy dealings in the panama papers and suddenly Cameron calls a referendum.

All very sisnister.

Leroy42 · 11-09-2019 01:57PM

Call me Al wrote: »

If it does reopen on the back of this ruling it wili be a real kick in the ar$e for Johnson's SPADs.

Aside from this it's fascinating to see the Brexit nationalists on Twitter turning their arrogant focus, spite, and insults from Ireland and its citizens over to Scotland, its people and its laws.

And let us not forget that denizen of UK constitutionality that is JRM. The man talks a great game about the Queen and the constitution but in his first senior political office is has potentially lied directly to the Queen.

Professor Moriarty · 11-09-2019 02:01PM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Its not that deep , seems to be at most 150-200m between NI and Scotland

http://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts.com/i-boating-fishing-web-app/fishing-marine-charts-navigation.html?title=Irish+Sea++Western+Part+boating+app#10.25/54.9833/-5.5013

but anyways, its still an insane idea especially when one looks at HS2 or new nuclear plants that over ran in UK

To reiterate, it will cost more than Trump's wall.

Enzokk · 11-09-2019 02:04PM

I think this confirms a lot of people's opinion of the work from Laura Keunssberg,

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1171713664392597505?s=20

If you look at her tweets after this one it seems like she is always behind on this story today and just reporting what is coming out and not really on top of it. This was the first tweet but her retweets and her tweets themselves seems so behind and it does feel like she is either slow or not following the correct people, especially as it pertains to this story today at least. She seems to rely on statements instead of focusing on the story here, the PM basically has been found in the courts to have lied to the Queen.

ArmaniJeanss · 11-09-2019 02:06PM

I see Luke Pollard (Labour, Plymouth&Devon) has gone back into the HoC.

https://twitter.com/LukePollard/status/1171757980481654784

Must admit I assumed after prorogation that it would be in some weird sort of lockdown, possibly guarded by a strangely named regiment with swords and 18th century battledress.

trellheim · 11-09-2019 02:09PM

there is unfortunately a ton of buried explosives between NI and GB. See https://www2.gov.scot/uploads/documents/ae08beauforts.fh10.pdf

VinLieger · 11-09-2019 02:12PM

trellheim wrote: »

there is unfortunately a ton of buried explosives between NI and GB. See https://www2.gov.scot/uploads/documents/ae08beauforts.fh10.pdf

The irony of that is quite beautiful

drkpower · 11-09-2019 02:16PM

Enzokk wrote: »

I think this confirms a lot of people's opinion of the work from Laura Keunssberg,

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1171713664392597505?s=20

If you look at her tweets after this one it seems like she is always behind on this story today and just reporting what is coming out and not really on top of it. This was the first tweet but her retweets and her tweets themselves seems so behind and it does feel like she is either slow or not following the correct people, especially as it pertains to this story today at least. She seems to rely on statements instead of focusing on the story here, the PM basically has been found in the courts to have lied to the Queen.

Or she is being honest...

There are many possibilities now, and tweeters are just laying them out but it is completely accurate to say ts hard to say what hapens from here;
it could be as simple as the SC upholding the appeals, and nothing happens.
Or they dismiss the appeals, and we are in full constitutional crisis mode
Or Boris cancels the prorogue
Or parliamentarians go back in and start voting on motions and legislation between now and Tuesday (would be interesting to see if they go in and vote on a motion to hold a referendum and see if the Tories go in to vote against....)
Or even the Queen recalls the prorogue
Or a million other things

All are possible, just different degrees of likelihood

An Ciarraioch · 11-09-2019 02:23PM

Lord Ashcroft poll on NI - 51% would vote for a united Ireland, 55% would rather remain in the EU than the UK, and 60% support the backstop:

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/09/my-northern-ireland-survey-finds-the-union-on-a-knife-edge/

Enzokk · 11-09-2019 02:25PM

drkpower wrote: »

Or she is being honest...

There are many possibilities now, and tweeters are just laying them out but it is completely accurate to say ts hard to say what hapens from here;
it could be as simple as the SC upholding the appeals, and nothing happens.
Or they dismiss the appeals, and we are in full constitutional crisis mode
Or Boris cancels the prorogue
Or parliamentarians go back in and start voting on motions and legislation between now and Tuesday (would be interesting to see if they go in and vote on a motion to hold a referendum and see if the Tories go in to vote against....)
Or even the Queen recalls the prorogue
Or a million other things

All are possible, just different degrees of likelihood

The Prime Minister involved the Queen for political gain and he lied to her. That is the story here, not what could happen but that a court of law found that he misled her to ask for prorogation. I will happily apologize if the Supreme Court finds that the Scottish Court was wrong in their ruling on the facts of the case, but it will only probably rule on whether there is recourse through the courts for remedy (opening of parliament again) or not.

drkpower · 11-09-2019 02:30PM

Enzokk wrote: »

The Prime Minister involved the Queen for political gain and he lied to her. That is the story here, not what could happen but that a court of law found that he misled her to ask for prorogation. I will happily apologize if the Supreme Court finds that the Scottish Court was wrong in their ruling on the facts of the case, but it will only probably rule on whether there is recourse through the courts for remedy (opening of parliament again) or not.

Sure, but everyone knows that already. Its hardly news.

Whats news is whether the courts find that it was unlawful; and the answer to that will only be found out on Tuesday.

Edit: to be pedantic, Boris probably didn't explicitly lie; probably more of a case of being economic with the truth; it is accurate to say that he advised the Queen to prorogue parliament to allow for a Queen's speech and all the usual stuff; that was indeed accurate, so not a lie per se; what he of curse omitted was that he was also asking her to do it to bypass parliamentary scrutiny; so 'misled' is probably the better characterisation!

AngryHippie · 11-09-2019 02:33PM

SNIP.

ancapailldorcha · 11-09-2019 02:34PM

Mod: Serious discussion only please.

MarinersBlues · 11-09-2019 02:36PM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Lord Ashcroft poll on NI - 51% would vote for a united Ireland, 55% would rather remain in the EU than the UK, and 60% support the backstop:

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/09/my-northern-ireland-survey-finds-the-union-on-a-knife-edge/

It would be very interesting to see the breakdown of those answers for the
50% who don't indentify as Nationalist or Unionist.

dublinjock · 11-09-2019 02:46PM

What a total mess brexit has become.
I was asked to vote in a referendum and i did, i voted to leave the EU and i have to admit i was a little surprised when the leave vote won.

Then we had a general election with both the main parties telling us they would deliver brexit and do as the people had instructed.
All i am able to do is vote to change things, now it seems that what i was told is true.
"If democracy was to change anything then it would be got rid of"

I really do worry about the state of Democracy in the EU, hence i voted to leave. Now im worried about Democracy in the UK and house of commons.

serfboard · 11-09-2019 02:47PM

trellheim wrote: »

there is unfortunately a ton of buried explosives between NI and GB.

This was covered in a great letter written by a retired offshore engineer to The Times:

James Duncan wrote:

Boris Johnson airily proposes building a bridge from Britain to Northern Ireland. As a retired offshore engineer, I know this is about as feasible as building a bridge to the moon.

Many long bridges have been built, but none across such a wide, deep and stormy stretch of water. For a great part of the 22 mile route the water is more than 1,000ft deep. It would require about 30 support towers at least 1,400ft high to carry the road deck across the deepest part and above the shipping channel. In total the bridge would require 54 towers, of heights never achieved anywhere in the world.

In addition, the trickiest section, Beaufort Dyke, was used for many years from 1946 to dump obsolete munitions. The Ministry of Defence estimates the total dumped at more than 1.5m tons. There are no maps of their locations.

No sane contractor or responsible government would consider building such a bridge, and because of the weather conditions it would probably have to be closed for considerable periods if it did.

It's not new for Johnson to propose spending large sums of money on a bridge. After all, he spent £43 million on a bridge that was never built.

prawnsambo · 11-09-2019 02:48PM

trellheim wrote: »

there is unfortunately a ton of buried explosives between NI and GB. See https://www2.gov.scot/uploads/documents/ae08beauforts.fh10.pdf

It's actually closer to 1.5 million tonnes. And includes incendiaries (phosphorous), explosives and chemical weapons (mustard gas).

LeinsterDub · 11-09-2019 02:51PM

dublinjock wrote: »

What a total mess brexit has become.
I was asked to vote in a referendum and i did, i voted to leave the EU and i have to admit i was a little surprised when the leave vote won.

Then we had a general election with both the main parties telling us they would deliver brexit and do as the people had instructed.
All i am able to do is vote to change things, now it seems that what i was told is true.
"If democracy was to change anything then it would be got rid of"

I really do worry about the state of Democracy in the EU, hence i voted to leave. Now im worried about Democracy in the UK and house of commons.

When you voted to leave who suggested no deal would realistically be the outcome?
Both major parties ruled out no deal at the last election .
https://scramnews.com/leading-anti-brexit-campaigner-femi-oluwole-tricks-nigel-farage-into-debating-with-him/

serfboard · 11-09-2019 02:51PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Must admit I assumed after prorogation that it would be in some weird sort of lockdown, possibly guarded by a strangely named regiment with swords and 18th century battledress.

Well, not quite by a strangely-named regiment, but by an individual with an unusual title - the Serjeant-at-Arms. The current holder of that title is Mohammed Amal El-Hajji.

10000maniacs · 11-09-2019 02:53PM

dublinjock wrote: »

What a total mess brexit has become.
I was asked to vote in a referendum and i did, i voted to leave the EU and i have to admit i was a little surprised when the leave vote won.

Then we had a general election with both the main parties telling us they would deliver brexit and do as the people had instructed.
All i am able to do is vote to change things, now it seems that what i was told is true.
"If democracy was to change anything then it would be got rid of"

I really do worry about the state of Democracy in the EU, hence i voted to leave. Now im worried about Democracy in the UK and house of commons.

You have to realize that a referendum is undemocratic. Its a snapshot of peoples views on a particular day. The fact that in this case it turned out 52/48 and there was a lot of shenanigans taking place around social media and blatant lies being told to push more people over the threshold made it even less democratic. I am not surprised people are angry and the middle has been severed from UK politics. It was always going to happen.

theguzman · 11-09-2019 02:53PM

From my own reading of the current situation would it be fair to say that a No Deal Brexit is now off the table? Or can Boris Ignore the motion passed and plough on breaking the law?

I can't see why the Conservatives don't just jettison off Northern Ireland and agree to a Northern Ireland only backstop, keeping NI in the Customs Union and thus avoiding the need for a hard border. This would effectively create a border down the Irish sea, I am baffled that Boris hasn't secretly reached out to Jeremy Corbyn and let them jointly pass this motion before dissolving Parliament.

The whole thing is mind boggling or does the default hard brexit seem more likely. The Northern Ireland backstop would effectively create a hard brexit for the mainland UK anyway if I read it correctly. Boris lost his majority so why he doesn't dump the DUP and reach out on a cross party basis to get Brexit done.

trellheim · 11-09-2019 02:57PM

it should be reminded that much as the NI bridge is being mentioned some of it is to push exactly that 43 million failure of the London bridge down in the Google search rankings

Water John · 11-09-2019 02:59PM

Would be interesting to see him knocking on No 10 some day, for either Johnson or Cummings to come with him to Parliament to answer questions.

Bit cynical · 11-09-2019 03:02PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

You have to realize that a referendum is undemocratic. Its a snapshot of peoples views on a particular day.

But then general elections are also snapshots of people's views on a particular day. Are they also undemocratic?

dublinjock · 11-09-2019 03:02PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

When you voted to leave who suggested no deal would realistically be the outcome?
Both major parties ruled out no deal at the last election .
https://scramnews.com/leading-anti-brexit-campaigner-femi-oluwole-tricks-nigel-farage-into-debating-with-him/

No one suggested deal or no deal at the time. The question was leave or remain.

I am really starting to think what do we vote for, what is the point of voting.

Nody · 11-09-2019 03:04PM

theguzman wrote: »

From my own reading of the current situation would it be fair to say that a No Deal Brexit is now off the table? Or can Boris Ignore the motion passed and plough on breaking the law?

I can't see why the Conservatives don't just jettison off Northern Ireland and agree to a Northern Ireland only backstop, keeping NI in the Customs Union and thus avoiding the need for a hard border. This would effectively create a border down the Irish sea, I am baffled that Boris hasn't secretly reached out to Jeremy Corbyn and let them jointly pass this motion before dissolving Parliament.

The whole thing is mind boggling or does the default hard brexit seem more likely. The Northern Ireland backstop would effectively create a hard brexit for the mainland UK anyway if I read it correctly. Boris lost his majority so why he doesn't dump the DUP and reach out on a cross party basis to get Brexit done.

Because the NI part was simply an easy excuse to pin the resistance to; the actual resistance is any deal in any form because that would block their friends from benefiting from laxer rules and getting contracts. However they can't stand up and state they want to outsource NHS or rip up working legislation as a reason to block a deal; hence "Oh our friends in NI would be abandoned and we can't have that".

VinLieger · 11-09-2019 03:05PM

dublinjock wrote: »

No one suggested deal or no deal at the time. The question was leave or remain.

I am really starting to think what do we vote for, what is the point of voting.

No offense but it sounds like you were not paying attention to the debates around it or fully fell for "project fear".

DOCARCH · 11-09-2019 03:06PM

theguzman wrote: »

I am baffled that Boris hasn't secretly reached out to Jeremy Corbyn....

After today's events, I think Boris may be reaching out for his slippers quite soon!

I am sure moderate Tories are horrified.

dublinjock · 11-09-2019 03:08PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

You have to realize that a referendum is undemocratic. Its a snapshot of peoples views on a particular day. The fact that in this case it turned out 52/48 and there was a lot of shenanigans taking place around social media and blatant lies being told to push more people over the threshold made it even less democratic. I am not surprised people are angry and the middle has been severed from UK politics. It was always going to happen.

I think your right about referendums being undemocratic. Im so so learning this.
I know there was much lies and shenanigans went on but this is the way with politicians.
But i have never been happy with the way the EU is run and how undemocratic it is. What i didnt know and i am also learning is how undemocratic the UK house of commons is. Voting it seems changes nothing.

prawnsambo · 11-09-2019 03:09PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

But then general elections are also snapshots of people's views on a particular day. Are they also undemocratic?

They're not snapshots in the same way as referendums. A GE is a vote for your representative in parliament. And you have the right to remove them at the next election.

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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